AlterZgo wroteAny reason you aren't considering used or targeting steep new discounts? The reason EV depreciation is so bad is because the new prices are significantly inflated over the market going rate, if you manage to get a steal of a discount (like the Audi eTron GT that goes for like 35% off MSRP new regularly) or just buy it pre-depreciated, you skip the burn with almost no downsides.I have no problem with EVs. In fact I had a Taycan 4S cross turismo. It was an awesome car that actually handled better than my 992 Carrera S. However, after my wife totaled the Taycan I took a 33% depreciation hit after just 2 years and 20k miles. That, for me, is the biggest hang up. I honestly don’t think any EV will hold value so I’m not ready to spend $100k-$120k for another EV. I will buy another EV in the future but it will be a cheaper appliance car like a Kia EV6 or a Rivian R2.
It’s really too bad as that Taycan was an amazing car and even though I was not on any EV car specific electricity plan, my electric bill went up by less than $50/month vs the $300+ I was spending on gas for my G80 M3 BEFORE the Iran war.
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It's so interesting to me to see the EV hate. I haven't owned one, but have driven a few. One observation I've made is that the vast majority of people I've interacted with, in person, that are full-on anti-EV, haven't actually driven one, or, at least not a sport-oriented one... e.g. they drove a Ioniq 5 but not 5N or a vanilla Model 3/X/Y.
I've had the chance to take a Model S Plaid, Taycan, and a 5N for a spin, as well as a Zero SR/S and an older Zero I can't recall. The older Zero was the first EV I'd driven (ridden), back in ~2015. It singlehandedly changed my opinion of EVs at large.
Yes, they're heavy, but they're getting lighter YoY, particularly now that solid state batteries are finally coming to market. Yes, charging infrastructure is not yet at a great point (or even good point in many areas). But... recent/future EVs power outputs are already at a point that no reasonable ICE engine can compete with - full torque from a stop/idle, (usually) no need to shift, and can aggressively supplement the brakes without adding stress to the motor.
And, particularly for people with solar, day-to-day fueling will be significantly cheaper. As costs come down, it'll reach a point where we'll be able to setup off-grid (possibly even mobile) personal charging stations with not much more than a few panels, batteries, and controllers... a once/rare fixed cost for nearly limitless refueling. Heck, the whole setup, now, would cost less than ~2yrs of my current gas utilization... On a whim, I've even spec'ed out the cost (~$9k at the time, with tax credits) for setting up a charging station made up of high-efficiency panels, several LifePO4 batteries, charge controllers, and kitting it up on a towable trailer! Ghetto look? Absolutely. Able to power 75-90% a small/mid-size EV's day-to-day needs? Very likely.
As to the sound? Yes, I love the sound of (good/tuned) ICE engines; I grew up within earshot of Laguna Seca and it's a fond, core memory for me. But, on the flip side, tracks like Laguna are at the mercy of the people around them. The silence of EVs removes an enormous barrier to the status/growth of motor racing. Some STOCK cars can't even run that track off the dealership floor.
I suppose my point is... the current landscape of EVs is chocked full of barely-out-of-prototype tech. They'll get lighter, faster, cheaper, easier, and more convenient as they gain market share and acceptance. Maintenance will be cheaper and easier than ICE equivalents. Maybe not now, maybe not next year... but the transition to them is all but inevitable, globally... for many reasons.
I, for one, can't wait to get one once 2nd gen solid state batteries start becoming commonplace!
I've had the chance to take a Model S Plaid, Taycan, and a 5N for a spin, as well as a Zero SR/S and an older Zero I can't recall. The older Zero was the first EV I'd driven (ridden), back in ~2015. It singlehandedly changed my opinion of EVs at large.
Yes, they're heavy, but they're getting lighter YoY, particularly now that solid state batteries are finally coming to market. Yes, charging infrastructure is not yet at a great point (or even good point in many areas). But... recent/future EVs power outputs are already at a point that no reasonable ICE engine can compete with - full torque from a stop/idle, (usually) no need to shift, and can aggressively supplement the brakes without adding stress to the motor.
And, particularly for people with solar, day-to-day fueling will be significantly cheaper. As costs come down, it'll reach a point where we'll be able to setup off-grid (possibly even mobile) personal charging stations with not much more than a few panels, batteries, and controllers... a once/rare fixed cost for nearly limitless refueling. Heck, the whole setup, now, would cost less than ~2yrs of my current gas utilization... On a whim, I've even spec'ed out the cost (~$9k at the time, with tax credits) for setting up a charging station made up of high-efficiency panels, several LifePO4 batteries, charge controllers, and kitting it up on a towable trailer! Ghetto look? Absolutely. Able to power 75-90% a small/mid-size EV's day-to-day needs? Very likely.
As to the sound? Yes, I love the sound of (good/tuned) ICE engines; I grew up within earshot of Laguna Seca and it's a fond, core memory for me. But, on the flip side, tracks like Laguna are at the mercy of the people around them. The silence of EVs removes an enormous barrier to the status/growth of motor racing. Some STOCK cars can't even run that track off the dealership floor.
I suppose my point is... the current landscape of EVs is chocked full of barely-out-of-prototype tech. They'll get lighter, faster, cheaper, easier, and more convenient as they gain market share and acceptance. Maintenance will be cheaper and easier than ICE equivalents. Maybe not now, maybe not next year... but the transition to them is all but inevitable, globally... for many reasons.
I, for one, can't wait to get one once 2nd gen solid state batteries start becoming commonplace!
cg_ops wroteGreat points. Other benefits of EVs include packaging and AWD. EVs allow a completely flat floor and remove the need for lots of mechanicals under the hood. It allows for more interior room with the same outside dimensions, and more flexibility in seating and cargo.It's so interesting to me to see the EV hate. I haven't owned one, but have driven a few. One observation I've made is that the vast majority of people I've interacted with, in person, that are full-on anti-EV, haven't actually driven one, or, at least not a sport-oriented one... e.g. they drove a Ioniq 5 but not 5N or a vanilla Model 3/X/Y.
I've had the chance to take a Model S Plaid, Taycan, and a 5N for a spin, as well as a Zero SR/S and an older Zero I can't recall. The older Zero was the first EV I'd driven (ridden), back in ~2015. It singlehandedly changed my opinion of EVs at large.
Yes, they're heavy, but they're getting lighter YoY, particularly now that solid state batteries are finally coming to market. Yes, charging infrastructure is not yet at a great point (or even good point in many areas). But... recent/future EVs power outputs are already at a point that no reasonable ICE engine can compete with - full torque from a stop/idle, (usually) no need to shift, and can aggressively supplement the brakes without adding stress to the motor.
And, particularly for people with solar, day-to-day fueling will be significantly cheaper. As costs come down, it'll reach a point where we'll be able to setup off-grid (possibly even mobile) personal charging stations with not much more than a few panels, batteries, and controllers... a once/rare fixed cost for nearly limitless refueling. Heck, the whole setup, now, would cost less than ~2yrs of my current gas utilization... On a whim, I've even spec'ed out the cost (~$9k at the time, with tax credits) for setting up a charging station made up of high-efficiency panels, several LifePO4 batteries, charge controllers, and kitting it up on a towable trailer! Ghetto look? Absolutely. Able to power 75-90% a small/mid-size EV's day-to-day needs? Very likely.
As to the sound? Yes, I love the sound of (good/tuned) ICE engines; I grew up within earshot of Laguna Seca and it's a fond, core memory for me. But, on the flip side, tracks like Laguna are at the mercy of the people around them. The silence of EVs removes an enormous barrier to the status/growth of motor racing. Some STOCK cars can't even run that track off the dealership floor.
I suppose my point is... the current landscape of EVs is chocked full of barely-out-of-prototype tech. They'll get lighter, faster, cheaper, easier, and more convenient as they gain market share and acceptance. Maintenance will be cheaper and easier than ICE equivalents. Maybe not now, maybe not next year... but the transition to them is all but inevitable, globally... for many reasons.
I, for one, can't wait to get one once 2nd gen solid state batteries start becoming commonplace!
The ability to place one motor on each axle or at each wheel radically improves the performance of AWD, allowing instant torque to whatever wheel needs it. No mechanical system can respond as quickly or as precisely.
The basic skateboard EV layout is also a boon for off-roading, because it means a flat underbody with few mechanicals exposed, and that underbody can be armored from front to back.
When it comes to practical considerations, the limitation has been range and the speed and availability of charging. But both of these keep getting better. We now have EVs with more range than ICE cars (my M2 often needs gas at less than 250 miles!) and charging times that have dropped into the 15-minute range.
I do think that EVs can never fully satisfy those enthusiasts who love the sound of ICE engines and exhausts, and rowing their own gears. There will always be a market for ICE sports cars because of this. But for 90% of what people want, EVs are either already there or will be.
I've been saying it for 15 years. There's going to come a point where people look back at the age of ICE and laugh about how antiquated it was. How crazy it was that people fueled their cars with a highly flammable and carcinogenic liquid that had to be refined into that state in complex factories from the deposits of dead dinosaurs.
It's funny how people complain about things like the fact that charging slows as you get closer to 100%, or how battery capacity shrinks in the cold. But these same people overlook all the hoops they have to jump through now with ICE -- keep the revs down and baby it until oil reaches operating temps. Let things cool down after a hot run. Change the oil every year even if you didn't drive that much, because it degrades over time. Remember the oil in your transfer case or diff too. On an on.
EVs will never be perfect, all things have pros and cons, and they will never have the stirring (real) sound of a great ICE. But as a means of propulsion it is simply inherently superior in many ways. And in the future this won't even be a debate. Even those who hate EVs now for dishonest political reasons will eventually get over it. (They'll have moved on to some other dishonest battle, continuing to be dupes in advancing some other corrupt leader's personal agenda).
bimmermookie wroteAgreed with your post, as well. The only point of yours that I want to address (not even a disagreement or correction) relates to the quoted part.I do think that EVs can never fully satisfy those enthusiasts who love the sound of ICE engines and exhausts, and rowing their own gears. There will always be a market for ICE sports cars because of this. But for 90% of what people want, EVs are either already there or will be.
Shifting: Lack of shifting results in faster, smoother, more manageble acceleration, particularly at the limits of traction (lateral/horizontally). If one needs the feel of it, some of the faux gear boxes are incredibly close to the real-deal-feel, right down to feathering the clutch.
Sound: I honestly think Dodge had the right idea with their (stupidly named Fratzonic) exhaust resonator sound system. It's a valid attempt at addressing a (very minor, IMO) gripe about EVs - the lack of the sound of high speed petrol explosions, channeled through a series of pipes to the rear of the car, which creates the roar many of us love. But quiet doesn't need to mean powerless.
Of course, I'm a verbose MFer who goes off on tangents, so.......
It's also nice not to have to worry about oil changes, SMOG checks, old gas/fuel gumming up the engine, putting the wrong fuel in, etc. Replacing the motor(s) is already relatively easy in most EVs, it's the battery that provides the PITA...
I also strongly believe there will be legislation to standardize the process of replacing batteries, which is currently (roughly) the equivalent labor/cost of replacing an ICE motor + transmission. Make that an easy, shop-servicable swap/repair/diagnostic and one of the biggest barriers to EV acceptance evaporates. Man, imagine EV batteries having to adhere to a series of standards, somewhat like the EU is putting into place for phones/electronics.... last-gen lithium-based battery starts to crap out? Boom, a few thousand to pull it and replace with a (gen2? gen3?) solid state upgrade!
Sorry, I'm not passionate about EVs, rather, very excited for the potential and possibilities. Also, having lived near busy roads and freeway, being rid of unnecessarily loud commute traffic would be a huge win for most people. If only we could get tires to be more silent at speed (without killing performance/longevity)!
cg_ops wroteIt's so interesting to me to see the EV hate. I haven't owned one, but have driven a few. One observation I've made is that the vast majority of people I've interacted with, in person, that are full-on anti-EV, haven't actually driven one, or, at least not a sport-oriented one... e.g. they drove a Ioniq 5 but not 5N or a vanilla Model 3/X/Y.
I've had the chance to take a Model S Plaid, Taycan, and a 5N for a spin, as well as a Zero SR/S and an older Zero I can't recall. The older Zero was the first EV I'd driven (ridden), back in ~2015. It singlehandedly changed my opinion of EVs at large.
Yes, they're heavy, but they're getting lighter YoY, particularly now that solid state batteries are finally coming to market. Yes, charging infrastructure is not yet at a great point (or even good point in many areas). But... recent/future EVs power outputs are already at a point that no reasonable ICE engine can compete with - full torque from a stop/idle, (usually) no need to shift, and can aggressively supplement the brakes without adding stress to the motor.
And, particularly for people with solar, day-to-day fueling will be significantly cheaper. As costs come down, it'll reach a point where we'll be able to setup off-grid (possibly even mobile) personal charging stations with not much more than a few panels, batteries, and controllers... a once/rare fixed cost for nearly limitless refueling. Heck, the whole setup, now, would cost less than ~2yrs of my current gas utilization... On a whim, I've even spec'ed out the cost (~$9k at the time, with tax credits) for setting up a charging station made up of high-efficiency panels, several LifePO4 batteries, charge controllers, and kitting it up on a towable trailer! Ghetto look? Absolutely. Able to power 75-90% a small/mid-size EV's day-to-day needs? Very likely.
As to the sound? Yes, I love the sound of (good/tuned) ICE engines; I grew up within earshot of Laguna Seca and it's a fond, core memory for me. But, on the flip side, tracks like Laguna are at the mercy of the people around them. The silence of EVs removes an enormous barrier to the status/growth of motor racing. Some STOCK cars can't even run that track off the dealership floor.
I suppose my point is... the current landscape of EVs is chocked full of barely-out-of-prototype tech. They'll get lighter, faster, cheaper, easier, and more convenient as they gain market share and acceptance. Maintenance will be cheaper and easier than ICE equivalents. Maybe not now, maybe not next year... but the transition to them is all but inevitable, globally... for many reasons.
I, for one, can't wait to get one once 2nd gen solid state batteries start becoming commonplace!
bimmermookie wroteThese are solid posts and filled with fair points. I myself am NOT an EV fan but thats more when it comes to performance/weekend/toy cars versus daily drivers or run-abouts.Great points. Other benefits of EVs include packaging and AWD. EVs allow a completely flat floor and remove the need for lots of mechanicals under the hood. It allows for more interior room with the same outside dimensions, and more flexibility in seating and cargo.
The ability to place one motor on each axle or at each wheel radically improves the performance of AWD, allowing instant torque to whatever wheel needs it. No mechanical system can respond as quickly or as precisely.
The basic skateboard EV layout is also a boon for off-roading, because it means a flat underbody with few mechanicals exposed, and that underbody can be armored from front to back.
When it comes to practical considerations, the limitation has been range and the speed and availability of charging. But both of these keep getting better. We now have EVs with more range than ICE cars (my M2 often needs gas at less than 250 miles!) and charging times that have dropped into the 15-minute range.
I do think that EVs can never fully satisfy those enthusiasts who love the sound of ICE engines and exhausts, and rowing their own gears. There will always be a market for ICE sports cars because of this. But for 90% of what people want, EVs are either already there or will be.
I've been saying it for 15 years. There's going to come a point where people look back at the age of ICE and laugh about how antiquated it was. How crazy it was that people fueled their cars with a highly flammable and carcinogenic liquid that had to be refined into that state in complex factories from the deposits of dead dinosaurs.
It's funny how people complain about things like the fact that charging slows as you get closer to 100%, or how battery capacity shrinks in the cold. But these same people overlook all the hoops they have to jump through now with ICE -- keep the revs down and baby it until oil reaches operating temps. Let things cool down after a hot run. Change the oil every year even if you didn't drive that much, because it degrades over time. Remember the oil in your transfer case or diff too. On an on.
EVs will never be perfect, all things have pros and cons, and they will never have the stirring (real) sound of a great ICE. But as a means of propulsion it is simply inherently superior in many ways. And in the future this won't even be a debate. Even those who hate EVs now for dishonest political reasons will eventually get over it. (They'll have moved on to some other dishonest battle, continuing to be dupes in advancing some other corrupt leader's personal agenda).
I have to say that I am "married" to petrol powered weekend and toy cars. I just cannot get excited whatsoever for any EV-powered performance car, even a Lambo or whatever other exotic. I just cant do it. No Hybrid, no gimmicks, just pure petrol for my toys. My opinion, of course.
What I have got away from is the "manual or bust" when it comes to my toy cars gearbox. When I ordered my 2026 m240i I was nervous about the flappy-paddle transmission. I kept second guessing, wondering if I should find a used one instead, etc.
Then, the car arrived and within about a month I forgot the manual and started to really love the ZF8.
Anyways, my take on EVs is this: They are a solid option for a daily driver, only car, errand runner, etc. and we are considering adding one to the household. But, I will stay "old and grumpy" when it comes to EVs and a sports or performance car. I gotta burn gasoline.
Mikey240 wroteI respect the stance and how you explained it.These are solid posts and filled with fair points. I myself am NOT an EV fan but thats more when it comes to performance/weekend/toy cars versus daily drivers or run-abouts.
I have to say that I am "married" to petrol powered weekend and toy cars. I just cannot get excited whatsoever for any EV-powered performance car, even a Lambo or whatever other exotic. I just cant do it. No Hybrid, no gimmicks, just pure petrol for my toys. My opinion, of course.
What I have got away from is the "manual or bust" when it comes to my toy cars gearbox. When I ordered my 2026 m240i I was nervous about the flappy-paddle transmission. I kept second guessing, wondering if I should find a used one instead, etc.
Then, the car arrived and within about a month I forgot the manual and started to really love the ZF8.
Anyways, my take on EVs is this: They are a solid option for a daily driver, only car, errand runner, etc. and we are considering adding one to the household. But, I will stay "old and grumpy" when it comes to EVs and a sports or performance car. I gotta burn gasoline.
Out of curiosity, have you driven a sport EV? Given the change of stance on manuals (which I love, too) perhaps you just haven't ridden the right EV gal, have her knock your socks off 😁
cg_ops wroteI have not been in any EV other than a Nissan Leaf for a short trip. Doesnt really count.I respect the stance and how you explained it.
Out of curiosity, have you driven a sport EV? Given the change of stance on manuals (which I love, too) perhaps you just haven't ridden the right EV gal, have her knock your socks off 😁
I guess one can say you never know but I feel Im a petrol-head for life, at least with the weekend cars. But, you never know.
I like what I see but i want to see how the final options will compare to what the AMG GT EV has. Yes, even the GT 55 will likely be more expensive but it will be worth comparing.
The configurator for the AMG is up and showing a lot of options for exterior and interior colors which is unusual for MB.
Also, I really like when manufacturers offer a high end audio system from the factory. MB has been better about this and the AMG appears to have a nice high end option. I get disappointed that BMW doesn’t offer an upgraded B&W system in the M3/M4 like they do in some of their other premium models.
But it will come down to an overall comparison of power, colors, options offered, etc.
The configurator for the AMG is up and showing a lot of options for exterior and interior colors which is unusual for MB.
Also, I really like when manufacturers offer a high end audio system from the factory. MB has been better about this and the AMG appears to have a nice high end option. I get disappointed that BMW doesn’t offer an upgraded B&W system in the M3/M4 like they do in some of their other premium models.
But it will come down to an overall comparison of power, colors, options offered, etc.
cg_ops wroteIt's not even that - it's a tribal thing.It's so interesting to me to see the EV hate. I haven't owned one, but have driven a few. One observation I've made is that the vast majority of people I've interacted with, in person, that are full-on anti-EV, haven't actually driven one, or, at least not a sport-oriented one... e.g. they drove a Ioniq 5 but not 5N or a vanilla Model 3/X/Y.
The marketplace of ideas is getting increasingly polarized, with extremist ideas and positions getting amplified.
Thus "I hate XYZ" has become a new "normal" form of discourse. And "hating" things is now a new "hello".
Not good for the society.
Good as-per social media platform algorithms that dominate, shape, and steer out national discourse these days.
cg_ops wroteI don't see any point in waiting.I, for one, can't wait to get one once 2nd gen solid state batteries start becoming commonplace!
Own 2 ICE + 2 EV vehicles. Each one is the best at its intended purpose.
In other news, a new iM3 video review is out.
I like the front more and more.
I like the rear less and less.
YMMV,
a
afadeev wroteIt's not hate of EV's, for me, it's disappointment that BMW would give a EV "M" status. An "M" is not for driving to the grocery store, It is for some spirited country road driving, a track day and respect at a cars and coffee event with fellow M owners.Thus "I hate XYZ" has become a new "normal" form of discourse. And "hating" things is now a new "hello".
The Tesla corral is over by the electric plugs.
Car-Addicted wroteThis. I dont hate EVs either- I just prefer petrol enthusiast/weekend cars.It's not hate of EV's, for me, it disappointment that BMW would give a EV "M" status. A "M" is not for driving to the grocery store, It is for some spirited country driving, a track day and respect at a cars and coffee event with fell M owners.
The Tesla corral is over by the electric plugs.
And, like you said, there are certain model lines that need to remain "free" of the EV push. That would be M cars and even their little brother wannabe M cars like my m240i.
bpeckham wroteI'm intrigued with four doors if they're all on the same side.I'm intrigued, but it has two too many doors.
afadeev wroteI appreciate the sentiment - I'm fortunate and thankful that my wife and I are in a better position than most but, still, I don't have the kind of disposable income/cash to have weekend/multiple cars. She has an SUV and I have a full size truck + the M340.
I don't see any point in waiting.
Own 2 ICE + 2 EV vehicles. Each one is the best at its intended purpose.
If I were to add a fun/weekend car to the stable, it'd be an
Ariel Atom. I'll never forget taking one for a spin at Sonoma, thanks to a generous customer at a car/bike day I was instructing at. That thing put just about everything else I've driven to shame; nothing like it without spending an order of magnitude more... and it was plated!That said, when it's time to replace the 340, I'm 90% I'll be going electric.
Reigniting the thread now that the 2027 BMW i3 debuted at the Welt.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." -Charles Darwin
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." -Charles Darwin
BMW Wants EVs To Jump From 17.7% To 50% Of Sales By 2030. The BMW Group is sticking to its goal of having EVs account for half of its sales by the end of the decade, despite H1 2026 results pointing in the opposite direction.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2026/08/01/bmw-wants-ev-share-nearly-triple-2030/
"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."
Warren Buffett
https://www.bmwblog.com/2026/08/01/bmw-wants-ev-share-nearly-triple-2030/
"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."
Warren Buffett
