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01-06-2010, 10:24 AM | #1 |
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Lightning Lap: M3 runs faster than Cayman S and 911 Carrera S
Despite still having issues with M-DCT (last year DCT refusal to downshift under heavy braking cost a few tenths) and the Michelin Cup tires not making much of an improvement over PS2 tires, M3 still beat, Nismo 370Z, Cayman S and 911 S in lap times:
"Although the hot-rod Bimmer is always an impressive ride, with decidedly sports-car-like agility in a class of mostly heavyweight bruisers, the M3’s lap time improved by just 0.2 second. As we found with our recently concluded long-term M3, the Sport Cup + tires don’t seem to shave a whole lot off lap times, and the dual-clutch gearbox was still occasionally reluctant to grant downshifts under braking. So drivers had to keep an eye on the dash display—never a good thing for lap times—to verify which gear was in play." http://www.caranddriver.com/features...3a05.4_page_13
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01-06-2010, 10:30 AM | #2 |
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Did you have any doubts? M3 is such a great car. They say the 911 S is difficult to drive at the limit...probably a pro driver will get a better time with the 911S than with the M3.
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01-06-2010, 11:01 AM | #3 |
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I'm not sure I believe it. The 911 has PDK (it looks like it from the pictures) -- doubly hard to believe. But, then, the times are very close and certain courses tend to favor certain vehicle characteristics. So, maybe it's not so unbelievable.
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01-06-2010, 11:11 AM | #4 |
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Considering the Cayman S is down 100hp and has much less PTW than either the 997 or the M3 I think it was the best car of the three on the day. Also it didn't state whether it was equipped with the LSD, if the case is that is didn't then this would improve it's lap time even further.
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01-06-2010, 11:47 AM | #5 |
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I thought it was fairly stupid to put the M3 in the LL2 class. Its base price missed the cutoff by a measly $25, and if you check any option boxes, it's over the threshold. Plus, the cars it's actually competing against in the marketplace are all in the LL3 class.
I'm a big proponent of the Cayman S, and I'd love to have one in my garage, but the constant "what if" and giving it credit for something it doesn't have is getting a little old. The Cayman S does not have the extra 30+ hp it needs and the proposition that such a hypothetical Cayman could beat the M3 is precisely that...hypothetical. Until then, the M3 is just as good, if not a better, performer on the track as the Cayman S. Which is more fun is entirely subjective, and I personally would have a difficult time choosing.
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01-06-2010, 12:23 PM | #6 | |
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Agreed. This whole "what if" nonsense is getting old. "What if the Cayman had an additional 50 HP to make it have equal power-to-weight compared to M3". That is completely rubbish!
It is just like an M3 owner saying, "what if M3 lost 200 - 250 lbs, it would completely decimate both the Cayman S and Carrera S much worse than it did in the test", "what if M3 was not having the M-DCT refusing to downshift under heavy braking and was 6 speed manual instead" or "what if M3 lost two seats in the back and became a two-seater car". Quote:
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01-06-2010, 12:36 PM | #8 |
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Both you TLud and 330CIZHP are quite right, the 'what if' is constantly added by people like me but as the LSD is an option readily available then it's mention was a valid one. As for the 'what if' the Cayman had an extra 30~50hp or the M3 being lighter wasn't what I was meaning by my post, only that I was highlighting the fact that given it's obvious lack of power and poorer power to weight but all but matched the M3.
You could easily turn this round by saying something like, 'look at the M3, it beat probably two of the best sportscars available at present and is yet affordable and practical as well'. What this really showed is that the easiest cars to drive producing the better times and showed that unless in the right hands the 997 isn't the quickest. |
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01-06-2010, 01:38 PM | #9 |
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When I read that article, I was proud to be an M3 owner. I was also proud to have been turning similar lap times on the exact same course/configuration in a bone stock (tires and all) '08 E92 DCT... with traffic!
Without traffic, I was besting their times Wonder how much I would have beat C&D if I were running on the same Michelin Cup tires as they were?
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Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale Last edited by M3V8Driver; 01-06-2010 at 01:47 PM.. Reason: Spelling |
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01-06-2010, 02:10 PM | #10 |
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Sorry to come over all PRO-AUDI here
But did any of you notice the 3:08.4 time set by the TT-S, 265hp and hauling 1490kg. Very impressive figures for what is a fwd bias AWD car. Also a piss poor showing by the 370Z Nismo, I wonder what happened there? |
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01-06-2010, 02:13 PM | #11 | |
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01-06-2010, 02:34 PM | #12 | |
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01-06-2010, 02:43 PM | #13 | |
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First, you treat the Cayman S like the underdog in the competition with the M3 that manages to eke out a near tie with the M3. The fact is (and, again, I think we're saying the same thing here) the more expensive Cayman S is no underdog, it just takes a different approach to the M3 for getting around the track quickly. Acting like the Cayman S is the real winner here because it came close to the M3's time despite having an inferior power to weight ratio is disingenuous. The cars are what they are and have their respective advantages and disadvantages. Is the Cayman S the superior driver's car? Arguably, yes. Is the Cayman S faster than an M3 with the same driver around most tracks. Demonstrably, no. Could it be? Yes, but that's beside the point. Second, I 100% agree that driven by experienced 911 drivers, the 997S is faster around any track than the M3, but your statement that "Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car" is ridiculous. The respective markets that BMW and Porsche target (or don't) has absolutely no bearing on the comparison of the M3 with the Cayman. The fact is that similarly optioned the Cayman S is more expensive than the M3 and the M3 still puts up slightly better track numbers. Bringing up the GT3, TT or any of the other 997 variants is akin to bragging about one's dad or big brother in school yard arguments.
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01-06-2010, 02:46 PM | #14 |
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The TT-S is definitely an impressive dark horse that doesn't get the attention it deserves. With respect to the Z, I don't put much stock in the numbers here given that the drivers clearly weren't the best.
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01-06-2010, 02:52 PM | #15 | |
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I ran a 997 Carrera S on the top end.. I opened a bit of a gap at around 180 and after that couldn't open further.. Clocked 273 on the garmin on the coast.. No sign of a limiter.. Has anyone actually hit a limiter on these M's
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01-06-2010, 02:56 PM | #16 |
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Count to ten everyone, I deserve the same disapproval from you as Shift@Red does because I commented on this fact first. I don't think we are disagreeing with any one that the M3 isn't anything other than excetional, all we were highlighting was how impressive the Cayman was too all things considered.
As a better handling car the Cayman definitely is, some of this is undoubtably is engine placement and overall weight plus a whole lot of Porsche knowhow but all things consider M3 owner and Cayman owners should both feel as proud as punch, it's the owners of the Cayman's big brother that came should feel worst here. P.S. No doubting that vette is mighty impressive. |
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01-06-2010, 03:01 PM | #17 | |
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You didn't specifically reference the GT3 or the TT, but impliedly referred to those cars by stating that "Porsche lowest level coupe keeps up with BMWs BEST M car." The fact that the Cayman S is Porsche's entry level offering and the M3 is BMW's most track-oriented vehicle is irrelevant to this comparison and doesn't change the fact that the Cayman S is still more expensive than the M3. Again, I don't think you and I disagree on anything here, but I couldn't help but call you out on what I perceived to be some Porsche bias. I probably wouldn't have mentioned it, but in a forum full of fanboys (on all sides), I've generally valued your input and opinions as being more objective and well-reasoned than most.
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01-06-2010, 03:20 PM | #18 | |
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Sounds about right. As for the Nismo..
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01-06-2010, 03:21 PM | #19 |
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Racing around a circuit is about keeping momentum through the turns. Power-to-weight is more a straight-line type of measure.
For cornering it's more about the absolute weight, balance, centre of gravity, suspension setup, etc. And the fact that the M3 is designed to seat adults in the rear is a major deficit when trying to make it go around corners faster. If they didn't have to worry about fitting then peskt adults in the rear & their luggage they could be free from so many contraints and made it lower, better Cog, polar moment of inertia, stiffer, hell I can think of 100 more things they could have done better. But they didn't. So the Porsche's platform is better for handling. But power-to-weight is not something I would bring up in a cornering argument. |
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01-06-2010, 03:31 PM | #20 |
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M&M,
I agree with everything you are saying. But the problem is that BMW have developed two M cars without these compromises and neither are as you as the Cayman or the 997 for that matter. They are the Z4M Coupe and the M6, personally I think BMW desired 50/50 balance which works really well with 4 seater saloon/coupes might not give to ideal packaging for a true sportscar. I wonder will BMW ever drop these figure for the pursuit of the ultimate sportscar and if they did would it still feel like a BMW. |
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01-06-2010, 04:00 PM | #21 | ||
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Correction: entry level Porsche.
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I'm just sayin' ...
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01-06-2010, 04:02 PM | #22 | |
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