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      09-07-2009, 09:36 PM   #1
purespeed
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The Obama birth certificate law suits continue

Looks to me like the owner of this web site is hanging his tail out really far.

http://americangrandjury.org/categor...th-certificate
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      09-07-2009, 11:51 PM   #2
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It looks interesting. Maybe he was born in Kenya.

It's too late tonight for me to watch this video, but it may give some useful fuel for the discussion.

Barack Obama "Kenyan Birth Certificate?" - Enhanced Lucas Smith Video
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      09-08-2009, 12:11 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It looks interesting. Maybe he was born in Kenya.

It's too late tonight for me to watch this video, but it may give some useful fuel for the discussion.

Barack Obama "Kenyan Birth Certificate?" - Enhanced Lucas Smith Video
Hopefully this will only be a discussion and not degrade to the "street level" and end up in useless name calling.

I have NO firsthand knowledge of any of this and can only go by what I see. If this is totally bogus, then let's expose it for what it is....if not, then we'll wait and see.

I think it will be interesting to see how long the web site stays up.
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      09-08-2009, 12:41 AM   #4
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its would be nice to know for sure. why won't Obama release his actual birth certificate?
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      09-08-2009, 12:48 AM   #5
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Theres a trial before a judge tomorrow where obama may be forced to release his birth certificate and passport info and college records. It makes no difference where he was born, the fact that he is spending so much time and effort and money to hide these records is weird.

He just happens to schedule some school kid speech tomorrow to hide the fact that a judge will be deciding on his issues. Cant wait to see what happens. I dont care either way, I just look at it as a good story.
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      09-08-2009, 09:26 AM   #6
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A guy shows up in a third world country waving money around and wants to see a birth certificate for Obama. And anyone thinks he is going to leave empty handed? Are you guys that naive?
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      09-08-2009, 09:30 AM   #7
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Granted I live pretty close to the county where I was born...

But once I was standing at the counter it took all of about 10 minutes to get a certified copy of my birth certificate and pay for it....

I don't understand what the problem is, just produce a county (state) certified copy and shut all these "birthers" up.

Go to Hawaii, walk up to the counter and get the damn thing, case closed, right? What am I missing?

http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-recor...l_records.html

Seems simple enough to me...

He could just take Michelle on another date night, this time to Hawaii, and kill two birds with one stone...
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      09-08-2009, 10:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
Granted I live pretty close to the county where I was born...

But once I was standing at the counter it took all of about 10 minutes to get a certified copy of my birth certificate and pay for it....

I don't understand what the problem is, just produce a county (state) certified copy and shut all these "birthers" up.

Go to Hawaii, walk up to the counter and get the damn thing, case closed, right? What am I missing?

http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-recor...l_records.html

Seems simple enough to me...

He could just take Michelle on another date night, this time to Hawaii, and kill two birds with one stone...
I put quite a bit of effort into raising a red flag about John McCain because he was born in Panama (not trying to raise that question today). I am reluctant to put much effort into Obama's status or non-status as natural born citizen. I learned that people don't care much about this status. The courts don't care. The Constitutional requirement only counts if you can prove that you have been injured by the infraction.

It really sucks that the most basic Constituional requirement just doesn't matter much. It comes back to the fact that this nation is no longer a Constitutional Republic, but instead is a popularity contest. It's not much better than American Idol.

Obama has more to gain by not releasing the actual certificate. If he was born in Kenya, then it is obvious. If he was born in Hawaii, and there wasn't something of real concern to be found in the record, then he would be using up his opportunity to string the "birthers" along for a greater embarrassment when he finally "caves" in and produces the proof.

In either case, the matter is interesting to me. I'd like to have a definitive conclusion one way or the other. In the meantime, there are many problems for Obama that should not be neglected to spend a lot of effort on his birth certificate.
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      09-08-2009, 10:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I put quite a bit of effort into raising a red flag about John McCain because he was born in Panama (not trying to raise that question today). I am reluctant to put much effort into Obama's status or non-status as natural born citizen. I learned that people don't care much about this status. The courts don't care. The Constitutional requirement only counts if you can prove that you have been injured by the infraction.
And if you knew how things worked like that, you would know he was born on US soil. He was born on a US base which by technical definition like Embassy's is US soil. Which made him a natural born citizen born on US soil.

I wonder if McCain won, if these same truthers would hassle McCain about the Panama thing......
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      09-08-2009, 10:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
And if you knew how things worked like that, you would know he was born on US soil. He was born on a US base which by technical definition like Embassy's is US soil. Which made him a natural born citizen born on US soil.

I wonder if McCain won, if these same truthers would hassle McCain about the Panama thing......
For my view on this, look at PanamaJohn's comments on the website panamajohn.dominates.us/forum. I disagree with your premise, but have no intention of discussing John McCain's birth, as it is no longer of great relevance since he lost the election.
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Last edited by scottwww; 09-08-2009 at 11:43 AM. Reason: grammar
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      09-08-2009, 10:57 AM   #11
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It amazes me that serious people are really still questioning this. The document that Obama released is a legal document attesting to his birth in Hawaii. I do not know what more some people want. The document he has released is sufficient for a passport and a security clearance. The matter is settled.
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      09-08-2009, 11:12 AM   #12
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Other than a lack of full disclosure, if proven - does it really matter if he was born there or in Hawaii, as his mother was a US citizen at the time?


There are various ways in which a person can acquire United States citizenship, either at birth or later on in life.


Birth within the United States
Main article: Birthright citizenship in the United States of America
Main article: Jus soli
The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment,[3] although it has generally been assumed that they are.[4] A birth certificate issued by a U.S. state or territorial government is evidence of citizenship, and is usually accepted as proof of citizenship. This differs from most western nations[citation needed]; countries of the European Union which awarded citizenship to children born there (such as Ireland until 31 December 2005) closed this possibility.

In the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), the Supreme Court ruled that a person who

is born in the United States
of parents who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of a foreign power
whose parents have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States
whose parents are there carrying on business and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity of the foreign power to which they are subject
becomes, at the time of his birth, a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the 14th amendment of the Constitution.


Through birth abroad to two United States citizens
See also: jus sanguinis
In most cases, one is a U.S. citizen if both of the following are true:

1.Both parents were U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth
2.At least one parent lived in the United States prior to the child's birth.
INA 301(c) and INA 301(a)(3) state, "and one of whom has had a residence." The FAM (Foreign Affairs Manual) states "no amount of time specified."

A person's record of birth abroad, if registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, is proof of his or her citizenship. He or she may also apply for a passport or a Certificate of Citizenship to have his or her citizenship recognized.


***Through birth abroad to one United States citizen
For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:[5]

1.One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
2.The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
3.A minimum of 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.
INA 301(g) makes additional provisions to satisfy the physical-presence requirements for periods citizens spent abroad in “honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization”. Additionally citizens who spent time living abroad as the “dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person” in any of the previously mentioned organizations can also be counted.

A person's record of birth abroad, if registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, is proof of his or her citizenship. Such a person may also apply for a passport or a Certificate of Citizenship to have a record of his or her citizenship. Such documentation is often useful to prove citizenship in lieu of the availability of an American birth certificate.

Different rules apply for persons born abroad to one U.S. citizen before November 14, 1986. United States law on this subject changed multiple times throughout the twentieth century, and the law is applicable as it existed at the time of the individual's birth.

For persons born before November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:

1.One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
2.The citizen parent lived at least 10 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
3.A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.
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      09-08-2009, 11:16 AM   #13
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The US constitution does state in order to be eligible to be President, the candidate has to be a natural born citizen.
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      09-08-2009, 11:17 AM   #14
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I had to double take at who wrote this.
If Pirate says its dead then its definitely dead.
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      09-08-2009, 11:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
The US constitution does state in order to be eligible to be President, the candidate has to be a natural born citizen.
Correct, hence my post/question - if one of your parents is a US citizen when you are born, you are a natural born US citizen.
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      09-08-2009, 11:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taliesen View Post
Correct, hence my post/question - if one of your parents is a US citizen when you are born, you are a natural born US citizen.
I think most people interpret that amendment as born on US Soil.
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      09-08-2009, 11:43 AM   #17
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See (g) below . . .

http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVA...16a4cb816838a4



INA: ACT 301 - NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH



Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669; 22 U.S.C. 288) by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.
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      09-08-2009, 11:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
Granted I live pretty close to the county where I was born...

But once I was standing at the counter it took all of about 10 minutes to get a certified copy of my birth certificate and pay for it....

I don't understand what the problem is, just produce a county (state) certified copy and shut all these "birthers" up.

Go to Hawaii, walk up to the counter and get the damn thing, case closed, right? What am I missing?
That has been done, but the birthers scream "forgery". This in spite of the following statement from the head of the Hawaii Department of Health:

"I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago...."

And then there is the clincher -- both major Hawaiian newspapers carried his birth announcement, including the hospital that he was born in. So now the birthers have to have a conspiracy that reaches all the way back to the womb. And of course they do. All that is missing to make this farce complete is alien abduction.
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      09-08-2009, 11:47 AM   #19
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Welcome to 9 months ago.

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

Close thread.
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      09-08-2009, 11:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
I think most people interpret that amendment as born on US Soil.
Additionally, some would require birth not only on U.S. soil, but to U.S. citizen parents (at least the father). A "freeholder" requirement is well justified when considering the English/American origin of natural born Citizen and native citizen.
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      09-08-2009, 12:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewSong View Post
Welcome to 9 months ago.

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

Close thread.
Yes but then we get into the argument of the difference (or perceived difference) between a natural born citizen, and a citizen.
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      09-08-2009, 01:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
Yes but then we get into the argument of the difference (or perceived difference) between a natural born citizen, and a citizen.
The only difference is between a naturalized citizen and a natural born citizen. All those trying to find some sort of distinction between natural born, citizen at birth, or anything else are peddling nonsense.

The framers were concerned that some future foreign leader would convince or pressure Congress to grant him or one of his relatives or subordinates citizenship and so they could serve as president.
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