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      08-01-2008, 06:43 PM   #1
swamp2
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M3post.com Transmission Testing Adventure

Members lucid, footie, bruce.augenstein@comcast, Tlud, OC Kid, T Bone and myself are all quite keen on doing some transmission testing. Enigma already has done some but we are waiting for his results. We would like to use accelerometers and a data acquisition to determine shift times of some various transmissions as well as other details such as minimum and maximum shift times, mode dependency, acceleration profiles during shifts, surge, etc. We plan to include the following vehicles:

DCTs:
BMW E92 M3
Nissan GT-R
Mitsubishi Evo TC-SST
VW GTI

SMG:
Ferarri F430 Scuderia (or just base)

MT:
BMW E92 M3
Honda S2000

AT:
Jaguar XK-R

This testing will provide this kind of detail (see graphs specifically) as opposed to this. This really will be data much better than you will see in any magazine. More like manufacturers level/quality/detail.

We need folks who will volunteer their cars. We have the BMWs sorted out (of course). I think we should concentrate on Southern California both because we are car crazy here (i.e. access to lots of cars) and because I am here and I will be coordinating the tests and gathering the data.

Last but not least we need volunteers to pay for some equipment. I know this is asking a lot and you'll pretty much have a to be a pretty big nerd to be interested. Estimated costs for the stuff we need to purchase is

$350 - data acquisition system
$350 - variable capacitance DC and high frequency accelerometer
$50 - misc (cable, mounting hardware, etc.)

I am volunteering $100, my computer and my time and expertise. So we need about $100 from 7 more folks. This may be mitigated by loaner equipment from lucid or OC. You can post here or PM me if you would donate.

We also need to locate the cars on this list and folks willing to volunteer the cars and some time to test. Should be just an hour or so per car, maybe less once we get going. Please don't offer other vehicles since we have already decided on this particular list.
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      08-01-2008, 06:54 PM   #2
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I volunteer $100.

Hey, maybe we can burn DVDs of the test drives and make some money like m5board does? It should be pretty exiciting to watch some guys collect data on a laptop while the car just kind of drives around and shifts.

I'll ask a friend of mine who is a vibrations guy to see if there is setup in his lab I can borrow...
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      08-01-2008, 07:30 PM   #3
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swamp: I think this is a wonderful idea that will bring to light some good information.

I'm in for a hundo as well. I may have a lead on a GT-R test car we can use... I'll make some calls this weekend, and keep my fingers crossed.

The sensors I have have a dynamic range of 0.1 - 5000 Hz. One worry though is that I am not sure how they can be adapted for this application...

I'll PM you the details so you can review what I've got.

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      08-01-2008, 07:31 PM   #4
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This sounds awesome, subscribed!
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      08-01-2008, 09:22 PM   #5
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I'm in for a c-note also. If we have difficulty tracking down owners through our own connection, we may try the various internet forums. I'd imagine there would be significant interest in something like this.

I think it would also be beneficial to write up some fairly detailed specifications/parameters for the testing process beforehand. This will allow everyone to weigh in and optimize the process.
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      08-01-2008, 10:00 PM   #6
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Wow, $300 in a few hours. My faith is renewed. Glad there are some other "nerds" here... I always use that term in a very positive way, at least when talking about myself....
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      08-01-2008, 10:05 PM   #7
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I am in for $100 since I was included in this thread.

Let's just make this virtual ownership for this forum so we can test different things....we will need a trustee to manage it.
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      08-01-2008, 11:35 PM   #8
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If I was in SoCal, I'd volunteer to help out. Don't suppose it would make sense to throw in an E46 M3 with SMG to also compare DCT vs SMG?

If you decide to record video, and use a data aq system like the G2X or Traqmate, there is a program called Trackvision which you can use to overlay the data onto the video.
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      08-02-2008, 02:15 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cchan View Post
If I was in SoCal, I'd volunteer to help out. Don't suppose it would make sense to throw in an E46 M3 with SMG to also compare DCT vs SMG?

If you decide to record video, and use a data aq system like the G2X or Traqmate, there is a program called Trackvision which you can use to overlay the data onto the video.
The overlay of video and data is really cool but it is usually somewhat of a dedicated (closed) system. For this particular work we need high frequency (i.e. high sample rate) accelerometers, quite a bit higher than you need for typical race telemetry. Hence the idea is very likely a no go.

SMG III (M5) would be quite a bit more interesting than an M3 with SMG II. Shift times for that system have been somewhat documented as well. Quoted at 80 ms by BMW, actual times are 200-250 ms.

5 out of 8. Keep the help rolling and we will have ourselves a little test likely to be quoted by the mags themselves. We do need the cars too!
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      08-02-2008, 04:33 AM   #10
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I think I remember a member on the site with a Bugatti, that would be something to include one of them. Also a good suggestion considering the amount of thread concerning the lag/delay from M-DCT, why not conduct some part throttle shifts, full throttle shifts and some shifts from the drivelogic (S1, S2, S3, S4, D1, etc.).

You sould also try to include an IS-F, Lexus insist that they auto shifts in 100ms, it would be interesting to see how true that was.

P.S.

I think EVO, CAR or Autocar has shown the actual data you are seeking but only for Ferrari and to me it looked like the point where they actually measured the shift time was midway down the dip and midway up the next.
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      08-02-2008, 10:21 AM   #11
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Hmm
A friend of mine is a photographer for a major car mag, I think road and track.....they might be VERY interested in this? If you want I'll send him a message and ask him....
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      08-02-2008, 08:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
Hmm
A friend of mine is a photographer for a major car mag, I think road and track.....they might be VERY interested in this? If you want I'll send him a message and ask him....
You probably shouldn't actually. For one most of them probably have the attitud e that if was not their idea they are not interested. Secondly I don't want them to scoop the idea. Thanks though.
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      08-02-2008, 08:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You sould also try to include an IS-F, Lexus insist that they auto shifts in 100ms, it would be interesting to see how true that was.


I agree...Lexus is making a lot of hay over their 8-speed wonderbox.
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      08-04-2008, 12:21 AM   #14
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Anyone have leads on cars to test? We have the following available

E92 M3 M-DCT
E92 M3 MT
Honda S2000 (my neighbor)

We have to keep plugging away with some effort on the car side (money as well.... Thanks.
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      08-04-2008, 09:48 AM   #15
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My friend who does vibrations research got back to me. He does have an accelerometer that operates at 5kz and a daq system that I can borrow. I need to load the software to a laptop and figure out how to configure it so that it logs the data. Unfortunately, I'm on travel and will not be back until the 17th. If I can get this figured out quickly, I'll do a test run on my 6MT. If that works, I can probably work something out with WCH to collect data in his DCT car.
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      08-04-2008, 02:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
My friend who does vibrations research got back to me. He does have an accelerometer that operates at 5kz.
Accelerometer should probably be a variable capacitance variety which offer measurement capability for DC and for reasonably high frequencies. Most accels that go to 5 kHz do not offer DC capability and hence you could not get the smooth back ground acceleration before and after the shift. Since you have the DAQ we could decrease the $ offered from each person and just buy a suitable accel.

Perhaps I can borrow the DAQ and order the accel and get started.

Cheers.
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      08-04-2008, 02:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Accelerometer should probably be a variable capacitance variety which offer measurement capability for DC and for reasonably high frequencies. Most accels that go to 5 kHz do not offer DC capability and hence you could not get the smooth back ground acceleration before and after the shift. Since you have the DAQ we could decrease the $ offered from each person and just buy a suitable accel.

Perhaps I can borrow the DAQ and order the accel and get started.

Cheers.
how do i request a translator? i only speak english.
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      08-04-2008, 03:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
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how do i request a translator? i only speak english.
Most good book stores carry this translator book, it's nexts to German to English. It's called Nerd to English.

Sorry, swamp. (jk)
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      08-04-2008, 03:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Accelerometer should probably be a variable capacitance variety which offer measurement capability for DC and for reasonably high frequencies. Most accels that go to 5 kHz do not offer DC capability and hence you could not get the smooth back ground acceleration before and after the shift. Since you have the DAQ we could decrease the $ offered from each person and just buy a suitable accel.

Perhaps I can borrow the DAQ and order the accel and get started.

Cheers.
I'll ask for the specs on the accelerometer. I am sure he has one that offers DC capability. I'll let you know once I get the specs on the available accelerometer(s).
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      08-04-2008, 04:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
It's called Nerd to English.
Well, that Nerd speak will help us shed light on the highly speculative yet precise statements you have been making about shift times as the one below from the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Some guys I know say it almost impossible to accurately measure the time of the shift but have place a ball park figure of between 6~12ms.
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      08-04-2008, 06:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Accelerometer should probably be a variable capacitance variety which offer measurement capability for DC and for reasonably high frequencies. Most accels that go to 5 kHz do not offer DC capability and hence you could not get the smooth back ground acceleration before and after the shift. Since you have the DAQ we could decrease the $ offered from each person and just buy a suitable accel.

Perhaps I can borrow the DAQ and order the accel and get started.

Cheers.
Will the accelerometers that I have offered not work for this application? I realize they may have to be dissected from the existing sensor... Did you get my PM last Friday?
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Last edited by OC ///M; 08-04-2008 at 07:59 PM.
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      08-04-2008, 06:58 PM   #22
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