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      12-19-2015, 08:03 AM   #1
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Rotors, Track Pads and Fluid for ST 380/365 BBK

Gents, ok to start I have to say that I am very hard on brakes at the track. I still consider myself a track noob, but I have become much faster and much more confident with certain a braking technique recently learned by a pro driver who has been helping me out on my other car. I would like to use this technique on my M3 as well, but my guess is that it probably requires a different rotor, pads and fluid than what I currently have because the technique includes a very hard initial bite and generates very high brake fluid/pad/rotor/caliper temps. I have ST with drilled rotors and ST street pads. I would prefer not to discuss the merits of the braking technique.

Curious what you guys would recommend here. I'm doing a 2-day event at a very fast track (COTA) in a couple months and transporting my car and the last thing I want to do is have to sit out day 2 because I went through a new set of pads or boiled my brake fluid on day 1 or cracked my cross drilled rotors (which admittedly I bought for looks instead of functionality).

Thx.
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      12-19-2015, 09:12 AM   #2
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Get PFC11 or Pagid RS29 pads and Motul 600 fluid. Do that and you'll be fine at COTA. If you want to put in Motul 660 or Castrol SRF, you can. I don't bother as I change the fluid often. While you should have purchased slotted rotors, the drilled will be fine if they don't already have cracks. Are you going to MVP event.
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      12-19-2015, 12:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
...a braking technique recently learned by a pro driver who has been helping me out on my other car...
The technique I learned years ago (from a pro, with a podium finish in ALMS) was to get to max decel rate quickly (without locking up) and then ease out of the brakes as you turn into the corner (trail braking). When I get it right, the G-force plots from my instrumentation look like a sawtooth. Is the technique you've learned a variation of this approach or is it something completely different? I'm curious, and I'm hoping to learn something.
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      12-19-2015, 10:13 PM   #4
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Castrol SRF has worked really well for me so far. With a new set of slotted front rotors and a new set of track oriented pads, if you want to be ultra safe, it's what I would do.

I used to run Motul 600 but apparently if you don't religiously bleed them, they will look like garbage. It pretty much did when I went to change out during my BBK install.
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      12-20-2015, 07:30 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
The technique I learned years ago (from a pro, with a podium finish in ALMS) was to get to max decel rate quickly (without locking up) and then ease out of the brakes as you turn into the corner (trail braking). When I get it right, the G-force plots from my instrumentation look like a sawtooth. Is the technique you've learned a variation of this approach or is it something completely different? I'm curious, and I'm hoping to learn something.
This technique exactly. Unfortunately it did a number on my rear carbon ceramic brakes on my 997 (went through a new set of pads, melted my calipers turning them burnt orange and boiled my fluid) so if I continue to track the 997 I'm going to have to switch to steel rotors, and upgrade pads/fluid.

Despite all the agony and cost now to fix the 997, I wouldn't have changed anything as I dropped 10 seconds a lap at the Thermal Club just by using this method. So I can't say enough for how well this method helped not only my times but my confidence - I felt 100% in control all the time because I felt like I had so much time at the end of braking that I was looking ahead for a good second (which felt like an eternity) to see the line/apex, set up my turn-in, rotate the car, use string theory to get out of the corner, etc. etc. etc. All this and I would START braking at the 1 marker on a 750 hp car lol. All that said, this method would destroy my M3 Stop Tech's in 2-3 laps so if I want to use it on the M3, I'm going to need to get serious about these brakes.
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      12-20-2015, 09:12 AM   #6
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Bring an extra bottle of fluid and extra set of pads. Problem solved.

BTW, may as well just go for Castrol SRF. It really is the best fluid.
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      12-20-2015, 09:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Bring an extra bottle of fluid and extra set of pads. Problem solved.

BTW, may as well just go for Castrol SRF. It really is the best fluid.
Another problem...I'm not mechanically inclined....can't change a lightbulb on my own. Pads and fluid/bleeding brakes...no chance.
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      12-20-2015, 11:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Another problem...I'm not mechanically inclined....can't change a lightbulb on my own. Pads and fluid/bleeding brakes...no chance.

I haven't installed my StopTech kit yet, but from what I understand, it's literally like a couple of bolts and you just pop the pads out with your hand.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're going to track the car and modify it that heavily, it probably wouldn't hurt to learn a few of the basic maintenance things. Bleeding brakes and changing pads is fairly simple.
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      12-20-2015, 02:30 PM   #9
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None taken. You are right I should probably figure it how to check pad depth and change them at a minimum.
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      12-20-2015, 03:04 PM   #10
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With fresh pads and fresh fluid, you will not need to do any maintenance at the track. Just bed them in and have a blast.
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      12-20-2015, 03:39 PM   #11
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Need to have something to push back the Pistons so you can slot the new pads in. They have specialized tools to do this, but I've just been using a wrench and a rag for cushion. Probably should get that tool, because it was a huge pain in the ass the last time I went out to swap my street pads back in - took me 30 min just to get the pads out.
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      12-20-2015, 05:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
This technique exactly. Unfortunately it did a number on my rear carbon ceramic brakes on my 997 (went through a new set of pads, melted my calipers turning them burnt orange and boiled my fluid) so if I continue to track the 997 I'm going to have to switch to steel rotors, and upgrade pads/fluid...
I think your 997 rear brake problem might be related to the stability control electronics and not the braking technique. When I learned that technique, it was "the way endurance racers get the most life out of their brakes". The reason it works is that you do the heaviest braking when you're moving the fastest with more cooling airflow, so you don't build up as much heat as you will if you brake later on corner entry. It also balances the car better and smooths out the weight transfer side-to-side and front-to-back.

Stability control is the enemy of rear brakes though. It usually uses rear-axle braking on one side or the other alone to stabilize the car and keep it from stepping out in a corner. I cooked the rear brakes on my E92 M3 the first time I went out with full nannies on. After that, sport mode, and the rear brakes take a lot less abuse. They still come in hot, but no hotter than the fronts.
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      12-20-2015, 08:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I think your 997 rear brake problem might be related to the stability control electronics and not the braking technique. When I learned that technique, it was "the way endurance racers get the most life out of their brakes". The reason it works is that you do the heaviest braking when you're moving the fastest with more cooling airflow, so you don't build up as much heat as you will if you brake later on corner entry. It also balances the car better and smooths out the weight transfer side-to-side and front-to-back.

Stability control is the enemy of rear brakes though. It usually uses rear-axle braking on one side or the other alone to stabilize the car and keep it from stepping out in a corner. I cooked the rear brakes on my E92 M3 the first time I went out with full nannies on. After that, sport mode, and the rear brakes take a lot less abuse. They still come in hot, but no hotter than the fronts.
You are 100% correct. My first two session I forgot to turn it off. That killed the pads and so when I remembered to turn stability control off for the last two sessions, my rear pads were already gone. Fluid boiling was due to needing fluid with a higher boiling point.
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      12-21-2015, 08:24 AM   #14
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Rear brake heat will also come from the EBD system, if I had to guess. It's going to use the rears more aggressively to minimize nose-dive.
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      12-23-2015, 04:09 PM   #15
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Nothing secret about the braking technique. That's how you're supposed to do. The difference is pros know the braking zone way better and pros apply initial brake pressure and release much quicker while being much smoother.

Op if you need trackside assistance I can do it so long as I can drive a session LOLOL.

Have fun at COTA I'm trying to make it too (unless it's already filled up).

Your brakes should be fine but check rotor for life (spider webbing, thickness) and get new pads.

ACS for test run on the 16th?
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      12-23-2015, 04:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
Nothing secret about the braking technique. That's how you're supposed to do. The difference is pros know the braking zone way better and pros apply initial brake pressure and release much quicker while being much smoother.

Op if you need trackside assistance I can do it so long as I can drive a session LOLOL.

Have fun at COTA I'm trying to make it too (unless it's already filled up).

Your brakes should be fine but check rotor for life (spider webbing, thickness) and get new pads.

ACS for test run on the 16th?
Thinking about ACS but don't know if I will have a car ready by then. Would be good to get a practice session before COTA.
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      12-24-2015, 10:39 AM   #17
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If this is a one time shot at COTA...I'd bring a spare set of pads, rotors, and fluid just to be safe. The problem with COTA is, if you're not mechanically inclined, is finding track side support. There's a good chance that there will be a shop sponsoring some cars or a good Samaritan but there's nothing close by.

Not sure where they are now...might want to check out Soul Speed Performance. They might be the closest reputable shop to COTA.

I've found that COTA isn't terrible on brakes (Road America is WAY worse) but hard on engines. I've seen more blown engines on COTA (7 blown engines in 8 days of driving there - 5 of them M3s).
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      12-25-2015, 07:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976
If this is a one time shot at COTA...I'd bring a spare set of pads, rotors, and fluid just to be safe. The problem with COTA is, if you're not mechanically inclined, is finding track side support. There's a good chance that there will be a shop sponsoring some cars or a good Samaritan but there's nothing close by.

Not sure where they are now...might want to check out Soul Speed Performance. They might be the closest reputable shop to COTA.

I've found that COTA isn't terrible on brakes (Road America is WAY worse) but hard on engines. I've seen more blown engines on COTA (7 blown engines in 8 days of driving there - 5 of them M3s).
Interesting about the blown motors. Having brakes go out is one thing....a blown motor would be catastrophic. Assuming because the M3 isn't a dry sump and there are some heavy sustained corners? I've been debating which car to bring - my 997.2 or my M3 but I never thought about this. No brainier for the Porsche then. Thx for bringing this up.
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      12-25-2015, 09:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Interesting about the blown motors. Having brakes go out is one thing....a blown motor would be catastrophic. Assuming because the M3 isn't a dry sump and there are some heavy sustained corners? I've been debating which car to bring - my 997.2 or my M3 but I never thought about this. No brainier for the Porsche then. Thx for bringing this up.
I think its the long straights with sustained time at high RPM (much longer than any other track I've been at) and a very grippy surface. I always have more oil/water temp issues at COTA.
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      12-25-2015, 11:54 AM   #20
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How does COTA compare with say ACS? ACS has me at the top of 5th and 6th for long periods of time. No blown engine.
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      12-25-2015, 01:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpriest
How does COTA compare with say ACS? ACS has me at the top of 5th and 6th for long periods of time. No blown engine.
COTA is f1 track so it's just huge for a street car. Lol.
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      12-25-2015, 02:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Bring an extra bottle of fluid and extra set of pads. Problem solved.

BTW, may as well just go for Castrol SRF. It really is the best fluid.
Another problem...I'm not mechanically inclined....can't change a lightbulb on my own. Pads and fluid/bleeding brakes...no chance.
Just wanted to say... Installing a BBK or swapping pads or flushing brake fluid is easier than putting together ikea furniture. And the right tools make things much easier/ faster.

That being said I'm having my BBK installed elsewhere because I don't have a spot to work on it. My garage is too full of stuff.

Have fun at COTA... So jealous!!!
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