Lowered on KW Variant 3

[serven7]

Originally Posted by gthirtyfizle

Deff makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much both Orb and Glen for the very useful information.

+1

Orb, What set up do you recommend if any at this time?

[Orb]

Originally Posted by serven7

+1

Orb, What set up do you recommend if any at this time?

The new Moton twin tube is on my list if cost was no object and they will certainly excel at working with this high motion ratio rear suspension. The Dinan setup seems okay for modest upgrade but only in the spring rates where known. I doubt they did anything but scaled the stiffness slightly so you would maintain the same handling qualities (you need to ask them). I would not be surprised if they don’t offer some JRZ RS soon as well like they have for all M3 in the past.

It might be good time to tell Glen what you like out of system. E.g. do you want to maintain the same handling qualities but just slightly stiffer spring with ability to lower? The KW damper are reasonably good for the price point but based on the spring I wouldn’t buy them as is but because I like the handling of the M3 just the way it. It is hard to make better what is already very good.

Orb

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Orb

Your comments are fairly disrespectful to Glen who I honestly think is tiring to answer some question but you seem bent to on adding nonsense to this thread and this will lead to one end. KW doesn’t have any magical power over physics so you would imply. The roll calculator is a tool. Do you even know what it is…obviously not and it is probably best this way. Most are focused on the large difference in spring basing from the OEM setup which will cause significant under steer (this is not even debatable). The one series information is irrelevant to this discussion unfortunately and a bit left field for a M3 forum…..if you read far enough you will find that one person never did solve the “heavy car under steer” and never will. The big front bar tuning nonsense is a hack for crippled cars with no LSD. Do I need to go on....

Orb

How do you figure they are disrespectful? The statements I made supports what Glen said. They are putting YOU down.

Your calculations are based on what BMW uses not using ones own calculations to improve. The basis you use could be applied to ALL applications?? Whether the application is for a M3, 335, Honda S2000, Ford Expedition... There is more than just spring rates, have you taken into account the valving of the shocks? Let alone from all the various manufactures? Different rim sizes (width & diameter) & tire set ups (compounds, sizes), tire pressures, sway bar diameters, strut bars, weight inside the car (people, junk in the trunk or lack thereof, aerodynamics along with everything else) (if you want to get technical))

My comment about physics is stating KW is actually measuring/testing it versus your calculations based on factory specs. You are trying to maintain the same calculations with a multiple instead of trying to improve/change the characteristics which means you like how the factory car acts/reacts. Keep in mind that YOUR driving style is different from someone more advanced (or less). Most people don't push their car to the limit so having something that is not well suited is useless. Try the race set up, see how you like them apples if that is what you are aiming for.

Tools are limited to doing a specific job, variations need to be made for change/improvements. Do you know what a 7-post rig is? That is a machine that can simulate driving conditions of any track/road condition (very few suspension manufactures have it).

Please go on as you must think that you are the know all & end all . With the information posted by you, you should start a suspension company that would shut the competition down

Heavy Under Steer?? Get a roll cage to improve structural rigidity, some slicks, race specific alignment... like the car in BMW-M-Mexico's signature & tell us how it drives



Will make a couple more posts regarding your previous comments

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

Please recheck your medication labels.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by Sam@AutoTalent

Will make a couple more posts regarding your previous comments

Ahh, just leave him alone. Maybe he'll troll around somewhere else.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Orb

FWIW, the club sports at 500 lb/in front 800 lb/in rear is far worse for inducing under steer. The Clubsport spring specification for 335i is a joke with 400 lb/in front and 570 lb/in rear. The rear motion ratio is about 0.58^2 which mean the rear suspension is very soft and is a major change from the OEM setup for balance. A track car (no aero dynamics) and road car will have the suspension frequency in the front equal or lower than the rear and in a very few cases you might see a 0.1 higher frequency in the front. BMW cars seem to have front suspension frequency 12% lower than the rear for a flat ride. The KW suspension frequencies are way outside the norm with a 0.2 to 0.45 higher front suspension frequency than the rear. Furthermore, the rear suspension frequency is so low for the Clubsport that optimizing traction for R compound tire is not possible as we need a frequency of 2.2-2.3 HZ+ in the rear. The rear KW Clubsport is about 1.7 Hz

Let’s do the math for wheel spring rates as this is what matters:

OEM M3

• 160 lb/in x 0.96^2 = 148 lb/in
• 550 lb/in x 0.58^2 = 185 lb/in

KW v3 M3

• 285 lb/in x 0.96^2 = 262 lb/in
• 630 lb/in x 0.58^2 = 212 lb/in

KW Clubsport M3

• 500 lb/in x 0.96^2 = 460 lb/in
• 800 lb/in x 0.58^2 = 269 lb/in


Look like we will get under steer given nothing else has changed other than springs. This is not a guess but a fact as the load transfer will be biased towards the front considerably (at least 9%). It can’t be corrected without a roll bar change not to mention that the cars pitch is a mess now and over compensated by heavy front rebound damping. The only thing that the KW setup will do possible is make the car feels softer but this is far from what a performance setup should be. One thing is for sure BMW engineering is a lot better than KW’s.

Orb

Softer you say?? How about a statement from the driver of the Loaded BMW which set the record on Nurburgring/Nordschleife in his class after changing to KW

Finally back from my nice holiday!

I can see that the lap I (did is) discussed all over the web.

I can give you the following statement.


“After changing the suspension on the Loaded-BMW, from BZZXXN to a full race-kit from KW, I finally could get around the Nordschleife without risking my life… Now we found a fantastic balance in the car and I could use the grip in the tyres in a good way. It was a great step forward of the development of the car.”


Best regards

Richard



Do you know the Ferrari Formula 1 team gathers information from winning races & puts that into road cars - same thing with KW

Originally Posted by Orb

I think TMS will be running 60 mm race spring not the kit with Moton dampers. I don’t like the idea they changed the drop it just for looks as this will affect the weight balance.

Some of those springs I have are H&R. I actually have another bunch in my garage that are from Hypercoil which are the best in the industry. After all my testing I kind come to one conclusion that BMW has it right for spring biasing between the front and rear. Going with stiffer spring and scaling the stiffness guaranties some degree of success with not much effort. This is a reasonable assumption to make to start with but it seems to be the case after messing around with this for months.

My next setup is very close to M3 is stiffness biasing. The springs are within 3% and the roll bars are with 2%....this is just happen to how it just worked out right or wrong. FWIW, almost all my links and bushing are from M3 but this is a longer story.

Orb

Simply - Why is there a BMW motorsport/race division?

To imbalance a perfect car? You think they use the same numbers with a multiple to improve handing?

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

Ahh, just leave him alone. Maybe he'll troll around somewhere else.

I'm done, read that after I posted.

Back to work for me

[doba_s]

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Sam@AutoTalent

How do you figure they are disrespectful? The statements I made supports what Glen said. They are putting YOU down.

Your calculations are based on what BMW uses not using ones own calculations to improve. The basis you use could be applied to ALL applications?? Whether the application is for a M3, 335, Honda S2000, Ford Expedition... There is more than just spring rates, have you taken into account the valving of the shocks? Let alone from all the various manufactures? Different rim sizes (width & diameter) & tire set ups (compounds, sizes), tire pressures, sway bar diameters, strut bars, weight inside the car (people, junk in the trunk or lack thereof, aerodynamics along with everything else) (if you want to get technical))

My comment about physics is stating KW is actually measuring/testing it versus your calculations based on factory specs. You are trying to maintain the same calculations with a multiple instead of trying to improve/change the characteristics which means you like how the factory car acts/reacts. Keep in mind that YOUR driving style is different from someone more advanced (or less). Most people don't push their car to the limit so having something that is not well suited is useless. Try the race set up, see how you like them apples if that is what you are aiming for.

Tools are limited to doing a specific job, variations need to be made for change/improvements. Do you know what a 7-post rig is? That is a machine that can simulate driving conditions of any track/road condition (very few suspension manufactures have it).

Please go on as you must think that you are the know all & end all . With the information posted by you, you should start a suspension company that would shut the competition down

Heavy Under Steer?? Get a roll cage to improve structural rigidity, some slicks, race specific alignment... like the car in BMW-M-Mexico's signature & tell us how it drives



Will make a couple more posts regarding your previous comments

The technical stuff you’re talking about is something I understand very well but it doesn’t change the real fundamentals. What I spoke about is where one starts, and this is with load transfer. The rest of the items you listed are dependencies and they are interlinked and have to be considering as a complete system. You need to get the basics down because I am not sure what you’re trying to say with most of it.

I’m not sure you even understand testing at all. You test to validate your assumption or design with a purpose or it is absolutely useless. This should be very clear. The 7 post rig is impressive but it only as good as the engineer using it. If we have an inherent design flaw in the suspension that needs addressing do you think this may be discovered using this machine or will one design the suspension upgrade with the inherent flaw. It is not a magical machine but yet another very useful tool.

I can understand improving the design with softer rear springs as this will give the car better turn but it will take longer to take set. This can be very fast on the track for those whole like to pitch in the car with complete abandon and can live with a bit of under steer at the apex. The issue we are looking at is a very large change in biasing of the front and rear suspension stiffness. It is not trivial and will cause significant under steer. It can not be dismissed. I suggest we pose a question to the forum on how people would by a new system make the car under steer more. I doubt many M3 owners will but it their choice not ours. Glen said he would address this comment so why can't we let him do that without you being an as# and stirring things up because you’re pissed off.

Your other post are…well, just angry so I kind just laughed and they seem kind of pointless without any information.

It is very clear what your motives are and they are to sell KW suspension and discredit everything in this thread because it suites your needs. I could see that in the tone in your post so you got an aggressive response in the first reply. My motives are bit more selfless....

BTW, I'm sure Glen will be impressed that you speak for him and KW North America...well done.

Orb

[Radiation Joe]

Oh great Orb,
Please share more of your wisdom with us.
We wish to know the magic number from the Oracle you call Excel.

[Blip Bavarian]

This thread has been very informative and helpful to a person like me who doesnt understand all of the science behind a suspension setup. Its a shame to see it turn into a pissing contest.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Blip Bavarian

This thread has been very informative and helpful to a person like me who doesnt understand all of the science behind a suspension setup. Its a shame to see it turn into a pissing contest.

I agree, let’s get back to more interesting stuff. Here a few sites that explain some of the information I presented:

• http://www.optimumg.com/ - Goto tech tip which has an excellent series on springs and damper. The author did not mention that damper motion ratio is squared but it is. Claude Rouelle is the person who coined the phrase “Magic Number” in my worksheet.
• http://www.racing-car-technology.com.au/ - Some interesting information at this site.
• http://www.fromsteve.net/ - A quick guide. The article are well written and in layman terms.

Orb

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Orb

I agree, let’s get back to more interesting stuff. Here a few sites that explain some of the information I presented:

• http://www.optimumg.com/ - Goto tech tip which has an excellent series on springs and damper. The author did not mention that damper motion ratio is squared but it is. Claude Rouelle is the person who coined the phrase “Magic Number” in my worksheet.
• http://www.racing-car-technology.com.au/ - Some interesting information at this site.
• http://www.fromsteve.net/ - A quick guide. The article are well written and in layman terms.

Orb

+1!!! Lets get back to learning!

[Radiation Joe]

... Racecar Engineering, Consulting, Software & Seminars ...

[Glen@KW]

Originally Posted by Orb

BTW, I'm sure Glen will be impressed that you speak for him and KW North America...well done.
Orb

Hello Everyone,

While I appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm, this thread has gone a bit out of focus.

What started as a thread of a fellow Driving Enthusiast who was happy with a product he installed has been Hijacked and turned into discussion about calculations and engineering theory.

My intention as the Manufacturer on this thread was to provide the correct information regarding the KW product line as well as some of our experiences in the USA on local tracks with this platform.

I do not hold either Sam or Orb in contempt in this as they both have their own points of view, and do not feel insulted by either’s efforts or posts.

I am not an engineer, and will never be one. Allot of this theory and number crunching is beyond me at this point, but what I do understand and respond to is Customer Feedback & Lap Times.

In this thread we have some of each, so here is a summary:

• Badfish is very happy with his installation and the KW Product on his M3.

  He is enjoying the ride and the performance of his car however he is using it.

• Orb is very un-happy with his KW Product on his 335i.

  Orb believes that KW has miss engineered the kit for his car based on the factory spring rate balance front to rear, and feels the KW setup introduces even more understeer to the platform.

• I have presented that KW has had multiple platform success stories with our product, including the 1 Series testing with a documented and GPS verified 9.4 second reduction in lap times.
  
• Sam is pointing out that from his point of view, KW has proven their engineering time and again, and he trusts the engineering enough to put his reputation as a business on the line for the product.

From this point, the Driving Enthusiasts that are interested can debate what is best for them, but for any of us to be Ignorant to the point of view of others is 100% wrong.

Without trying to sound condescending in any way, we would need to inject additional real world testing from Orb’s project to come to any sort of conclusion.

I feel compelled to let this community know that the email correspondence between KW and Orb has been discontinued this morning at Orb’s request, as he believes that there is nothing we can do to help him, as he feels KW is not accepting his findings.

I have disclosed all of KW’s information on our setup and telemetry on the 1 Series testing. I am awaiting our 7-post dyno data on this platform as well, and will post once I receive it.

In order to continue a rational discussion, we would need Orb to produce real world testing of equal value.

I would invite Orb to post his current setup and any and all information on his vehicle and its performance issues and we can discuss openly with all involved.

[tightie]

I've been a KW customer on all my cars, E46 M3, E60 M5, and E92 M3. I'm very happy with my installation and the KW Products on all my cars. I've never had one compliant, it rides like a champ, handles like a champ, Best mod I've done on my car so far.

KW ftw.

[Socale92]

yes ive been very happy with mine, no problems 3k and counting, this is the second m3 ive owned with kw v3s

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Orb

The technical stuff you’re talking about is something I understand very well but it doesn’t change the real fundamentals. What I spoke about is where one starts, and this is with load transfer. The rest of the items you listed are dependencies and they are interlinked and have to be considering as a complete system. You need to get the basics down because I am not sure what you’re trying to say with most of it.

I’m not sure you even understand testing at all. You test to validate your assumption or design with a purpose or it is absolutely useless. This should be very clear. The 7 post rig is impressive but it only as good as the engineer using it. If we have an inherent design flaw in the suspension that needs addressing do you think this may be discovered using this machine or will one design the suspension upgrade with the inherent flaw. It is not a magical machine but yet another very useful tool.

I can understand improving the design with softer rear springs as this will give the car better turn but it will take longer to take set. This can be very fast on the track for those whole like to pitch in the car with complete abandon and can live with a bit of under steer at the apex. The issue we are looking at is a very large change in biasing of the front and rear suspension stiffness. It is not trivial and will cause significant under steer. It can not be dismissed. I suggest we pose a question to the forum on how people would by a new system make the car under steer more. I doubt many M3 owners will but it their choice not ours. Glen said he would address this comment so why can't we let him do that without you being an as# and stirring things up because you’re pissed off.

Your other post are…well, just angry so I kind just laughed and they seem kind of pointless without any information.

It is very clear what your motives are and they are to sell KW suspension and discredit everything in this thread because it suites your needs. I could see that in the tone in your post so you got an aggressive response in the first reply. My motives are bit more selfless....

BTW, I'm sure Glen will be impressed that you speak for him and KW North America...well done.

Orb

KW Variant coilovers are for enthusiasts mainly driving on the street, there are more dedicated products available (clubsport,race,street comfort...)

My motive is to provide a very good product that we believe in. We offer Bilstein, Ground Control, Tein & other brands but we like KW the best from personal experience ~ 8 years.

For the people that know me, I'm not aggressive, give credit where it is due & don't get offended - just can't stand people that "know everything". If something is better then I will be happy to admit it.

I've driven various cars & know differences of bad to great, here are 2 shop pictures as examples. We like real world driving characteristics

[serven7]

I am a customer of Sams as a matter of fact that is my SS II M3 in the picture above and it has KW V3s on it. Anyway, those of you that know him know him know its pretty hard to argue with a guy that laid back.

Glen- I only speak for myself when I say that I wouldnt know what to do with the 7 post test numbers what Im am concerned with is how much if any under steer is in this setup compared to stock and does it change the weight distribution or load transfer(cant remember what Orb said)

[KonigsTiger]

Nice pictures Sam and am excited to see my car at your shop!!

[OC ///M]

Sam & Zolti - FTW

[Glen@KW]

Before I respond to the rest of Orb’s comments, let me make a clarification about my post on the KW testing with the 1 Series that I believed to be obvious, but Orb's post tells me otherwise:

• The SAME vehicle was used in one full day of testing at Buttonwillow.
• After 4-5 laps, the vehicle was brought in and the suspension changed to the next test setup.
• The vehicle was 100% factory issue. This means no motor tuning, and no upgrades - Straight off the BMW dealer lot.
• The tires used were the SAME tires listed, and WERE NOT CHANGEDduring the day. These tires were the factory issue Bridgestone Potenza's:.

Front: 215/40/18
Rear: 245/35/18

The only tired related data that was not posted on my sheet was the tire pressures used during the test.

Any and all changes made to the vehicle were listed on the image on my post. If there was no additional data, that particular item WAS NOT CHANGED.

The tests were performed in order that they are listed in my last post, for review, this was:

1. OEM configuration
2. OEM with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade (ST suspensions prototype, one of our other brands in the USA)
3. Variant 1 with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED
4. Variant 3 with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED
5. Club Sport with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED

ALL WITH THE SAME TIRES!!..............................

[KonigsTiger]

I´m getting all confused!