Best way to get latest software update covered under warranty

[flint]

Hey all. I have an 08 6MT and am trying to get my software updated to the latest version before my warranty expires in 2 months. On my last service I inquired about the current version and the dealer confirmed it has never been updated since purchased. I am not having any issues but the potential for better response and small power increase are tempting. I have had casual conversations with my service advisor about how to get an update covered. He confirmed what has been discussed on here, saying it is difficult at best on a 6MT. His suggestion was to bring the car in for Bluetooth connectivity issues with my phone. I will give that a try but has anyone else had luck getting a warranty covered software update? How did you accomplish it?

[mdosu]

you'll need an engine related issue like idle air control valve, or a bent/broken intake/exhaust valve issue for them to touch the engine software.

[THE TECH]

Asked many times. Dealers hate updating software, especially for free. Car will have to have a problem as mdosu mentions.

[Grail05]

if its not giving you any issue why update.

[Stronie]

Can you pay the labor for it? Also what is the latest software version? (Sorry I did not search)

[MRSSIIM3]

Originally Posted by Sean05

if its not giving you any issue why update.

because newer software fixes random bugs that may be present. if theres no issues between 08 software and 13 software, why even spend $ on RD to make the updates?

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Stronie

Can you pay the labor for it? Also what is the latest software version? (Sorry I did not search)

yes it costs about 30 minutes of labor hours, I think OP wants to get something for nothing, 280E is the latest software number.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Sean05

if its not giving you any issue why update.

I just went from 80E to 280E. I noticed smoother low RPM low gear throttle sensitivity which improves daily drivability. Additionally, the reduced throttle sensitivity also improved my observed highway MPGs (i'm not shitting you on this one.) These two items are worth the price of the update as I plan on keeping my car past 100k miles

Also, some people claim though butt dyno that the car pulls harder on upper ranges, i haven't noticed a difference there. There was a back-to-back dyno pull which showed 280E gained 5% hp over 100E. It's debatable whether 5% gains are within the error range, only repetable tests will show whether 5% was an anomaly or not.

Nevertheless drivablility increases with an update.

[Grail05]

Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3

because newer software fixes random bugs that may be present. if theres no issues between 08 software and 13 software, why even spend $ on RD to make the updates?

i know that... i was just saying why update if its not giving him any issues.

[SenorFunkyPants]

There was an ECU update about 2010ish that resolved an issue that showed as a flat spot (poor throttle response) when quickly going to full throttle at ~2500rpm. If you have that issue you may be able to get a software update for that.

[hlmiii]

The reason dealerships charge - and won't do it without a serious need - is that it requires time and effort and is not always plug and play. When something doesn't go right it will involve costs that can't be recovered. So an update is something to use only if there is a problem that requires it.

Owners don't want to pay because there really won't be a significant enough difference worth paying for - the car works fine as is. It is analogous to LCI hardware. So an update is understandably perceived as something not worth paying for - an owner would not pay for the amount reflected on the dealership's books.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by mdosu

I just went from 80E to 280E. I noticed smoother low RPM low gear throttle sensitivity which improves daily drivability. Additionally, the reduced throttle sensitivity also improved my observed highway MPGs (i'm not shitting you on this one.) These two items are worth the price of the update as I plan on keeping my car past 100k miles

Also, some people claim though butt dyno that the car pulls harder on upper ranges, i haven't noticed a difference there. There was a back-to-back dyno pull which showed 280E gained 5% hp over 100E. It's debatable whether 5% gains are within the error range, only repetable tests will show whether 5% was an anomaly or not.

Nevertheless drivablility increases with an update.

Not so sure about MPGs, but my drivability also improved with the update - the car pulls better at lower RPMs than before. Not a huge difference, but it's noticeable and I'm happy I did it.

To OP - I paid out of pocket for a local BMW shop with an Autologic to do it. I think it cost me ~$70 or so to have it done. Worth it in my book. I'm sure in a larger market, you can get it done for cheaper, if not free. My local BMW dealer fights me on everything, so they wouldn't touch it.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There was an ECU update about 2010ish that resolved an issue that showed as a flat spot (poor throttle response) when quickly going to full throttle at ~2500rpm. If you have that issue you may be able to get a software update for that.

i think you're talking about the DCT software update, we're talking about the engine software update.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by hlmiii

The reason dealerships charge - and won't do it without a serious need - is that it requires time and effort and is not always plug and play. When something doesn't go right it will involve costs that can't be recovered. So an update is something to use only if there is a problem that requires it.

Owners don't want to pay because there really won't be a significant enough difference worth paying for - the car works fine as is. It is analogous to LCI hardware. So an update is understandably perceived as something not worth paying for - an owner would not pay for the amount reflected on the dealership's books.

I work in IT, and we'd be laughed out of the building if we went 4 years without applying updates and patches to software. BMW already provides updates for the idrive/entertainment software. Why should the engine/ECU be any different?

If it's that hard to perform the upgrade, then either BMW has a serious software testing problem, or they need to find ways to make the upgrades more seamless, similar to how software vendors have worked over the years to make their upgrades easier to run. I can see not wanting to perform upgrades frequently, but I don't think getting "patched" to the latest version of engine and DCT software every 1 - 2 years is that unreasonable. My guess is in 5-10 years the idea of not regularly updating automobile ECU software will seem pretty antiquated. That's my view, and as such, I don't have an issue with trying to get BMW to provide something for free that more than likely ought to be provided for free anyway.

[JoeKixxon]

Well, nuts! Now I'm gonna check out my 2008, see what version it is, and then promptly decide it's no longer good enough! (I kid... but not entirely)

Reminds me of one of my all time favorite business quotes: "Marketing is the art of making people dissatisfied with the products they already own."

Edit: At least I thought to ask for the newest Map/GPS DVD when I bought the car used from the dealer. That was included at no charge to me ;-) And the iPod cable too.

[hlmiii]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

I work in IT, ... Why should the engine/ECU be any different?

Because you work with a closed system, in all likelihood.

As almost all BMW hardware and software components are sourced from third parties, each one comes with its own programs and requirements, and most of those are derived from legacy origins. The communication with and intradirection among the dozens of components is extremely complex due to the dozens of proprietary processes. Added to that are the varying levels of IT development, long life-span/cycles and uncontrollable operating conditions. It is not comparable to IT work as most people understand.

Besides -
Do all of your upgrades always proceed without any issues?

Are your components moving your clients through high-speed life-determining situations?

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

either BMW has a serious software testing problem, or they need to find ways to make the upgrades more seamless ... I don't think getting "patched" to the latest version of engine and DCT software every 1 - 2 years is that unreasonable.

Actually ... it is. If it were simply as described that would be doable. But where such software interfaces with seemingly unrelated items as brake pads, for example, that may be retrofitted several years later, updates aren't so simple.

You might want to visit your SA and see if he/she will give you a print out of what goes into a software update of any high-end car. The modules and interfaces involved are endless. If even one of them doesn't report back in the exactly-required manner at the exactly-required time, the whole process can fail and have to start anew.

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

My guess is in 5-10 years the idea of not regularly updating automobile ECU software will seem pretty antiquated.

Hopefully. That has been the goal for several years.

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

That's my view, and as such, I don't have an issue with trying to get BMW to provide something for free that more than likely ought to be provided for free anyway.

Ok. Just as long as you can tell your clients/customers/division leaders that you won't charge for yours!

[M3amigos]

I had asked my local dealer to look up my software version at one point and they confirmed I had the original '08 version installed, though they weren't very knowledgeable about the latest updates, what was available, and what the changes were. Hoping I would get them to update it under warranty, I did mention that I had noticed some driveability issues during cold starts (which was somewhat true) and they said they would take a look at it whenever I had time and update the software as necessary. I never did bother to bring it back in though since I just went ahead with a tune update shortly after which included the latest sw version. Honestly, even with the tune, I didn't notice much difference in daily partial throttle driving, but definitely nice power gains at full throttle from the tune upgrade.

IMO, I wouldn't bother updating the stock sw if the car is running well. Get a tune upgrade if you are looking for more hp. In my experience, the less the dealer touches my car, the better off I am. Dealers seem to have a knack for "finding" new problems that sometimes aren't covered.

[jphughan]

You want a software update to deliver expected improvements to a status quo you were aware of when you bought the car, not a repair to fix an issue that shouldn't be there. Generally improvements in life are not free, so rather than make up some fake issue or sabotage your car to create one, get a quote and decide whether it's worth it to you. You'd probably get more noticeable power improvements by replacing spark plugs on an 08 anyway depending on when that was last done.

And yes, while it's true that the amount of labor involved in this isn't significant, don't be surprised to be charged for more because even though your car doesn't require a tech's attention for the entire time, it's still occupying a service bay for several hours, which could otherwise have been used to work on another car, so the dealership often (rightfully) charges something for that.

To the person who works in IT (as I do), yes I agree that BMW needs to revamp their updating process so that it's less risky -- but until they do, service centers have to work with what BMW gives them, and until BMW either fixes their updating system or volunteers to pay for software updates, it's entirely reasonable for dealerships to charge for updates based on the time, effort, and risk involved. I also don't agree that failing to update frequently is as significant an issue on cars given that they're pretty much closed systems. Obviously that's changing these days and will continue to do so, but it's not as if the ECU is connected to the Internet and vulnerable to hack attempts -- at least until some idiot engineer decides to manage Internet-connected features in the car using the same system that controls the ECU.

[hlmiii]

+1
All of it.

[swartzentruber]

Not going to multi-quote the above, as I don't have the time, but really non of your arguments are compelling. No, I don't work in a "closed system". I work in Investments IT, in the area of end-to-end data integration. where we have data exchanges with a variety of internal and external systems. When you make software updates, you isolate what you think you are changing, fully "unit test the change", then "regression test" to make sure you haven't screwed anything up royally. Similar concepts can be applied to software updates applied to cars. BMW frankly has a far easier time testing -- they are more analogous to an Apple (where all components are known/controlled) than PC (where components and software are supplied by a variety of unknown vendors)

Do upgrades proceed seamlessly? Of course not. You test the hell out of things to try to prevent as many issues as possible, but of course the occasional bug gets through. That's not an excuse to not upgrade.

Life-determining? Really, that as an excuse? You think that flies as a reason not to upgrade air traffic control software, hospital software, etc? Your testing should obviously be greater in higher leverage situations, but once again, no reason to not upgrade.

As far as charging for upgrades, most software is covered by maintenance agreements (typically 18%/yr of purchase price of software). My view is, this is maintenance like anything else. BMW maintenace plan covers oil changes, brakes pads, and they should cover software upgrades. it should just be included in the implied value of the free maintenance. In fact, when you look at the maintenance warranty coverage exclusion list, it DOES NOT list software upgrades, so you could make an argument that BMW is violating the warranty by declining to provide software upgrades.

Frankly, the only good reason for not covering it is if the items they upgrade are so de minimus in nature, that there's no value in incurring the upgrade risk. Somehow I doubt this, and since BMW doesn't really publish detailed release notes like you'd expect with most software changes, we are left with the "trust us, there's nothing you really need here" attitude.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Do upgrades proceed seamlessly? Of course not.

Exactly, and so the question becomes, who pays when things go wrong? It would be a hard sell for a dealership to tell a customer, "Hey that software update you asked us to do messed up, and it took several hours to sort it out, so here's a bill for all of that time." But the dealership had to invest the time, even if the failure was through absolutely no fault of their own. Someone will be left holding the bag, and I can certainly understand the dealership not wanting that to be them, just as I can understand the customer not wanting it to be him/her either. However, in cases where the customer actually requested the update, if the failure wasn't the dealership's fault, I would argue that the customer should foot the bill for the dealership's extra time as long as he/she was informed beforehand of that possible risk -- but again, good luck actually selling that to the customer, never mind getting them to return for future business.

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

As far as charging for upgrades ... when you look at the maintenance warranty coverage exclusion list, it DOES NOT list software upgrades, so you could make an argument that BMW is violating the warranty by declining to provide software upgrades.

Nope, Ultimate Service states that it covers maintenance items indicated as required by the onboard computer, not whatever maintenance could be argued as worthwhile/reasonable/prudent.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by jphughan

To the person who works in IT (as I do), yes I agree that BMW needs to revamp their updating process so that it's less risky -- but until they do, service centers have to work within the parameters BMW provides, and they're entitled to charge for that until BMW fixes their system or offers to pay their labor and time for software updates.

I also don't agree that failing to update frequently is as significant an issue on cars given that they're pretty much closed systems.

I agree with the first point, not so much the second. It probably isn't fair to the dealership I guess getting them to provide service for something they can't get reimbursed on, so yes, this is more of a BMWNA issue than a dealership issues.

For the second point, you can choose to believe there's nothing of value requiring the upgrade, I don't. How many times has BMW tried to tell customers there was no problem, until finally admitting there was. It's not as though BMW is spending trivial dollars on these upgrades. If it was worth them spending programmer time on changing the software, it is likely worth getting the upgrade out to far more customers than just those reporting distinct problems. Generally, the best way to maximize $ spent on ugprades is to spread it over as many customers that can benefit as possible. The only reason I can imagine BMW doesn't do that is they currently have a highly flawed "upgrade" process, nothing more. I certainly don't see that a full upgrade every 2 years or so is that unreasonable -- 2 years is huge in the software life cycle.