M3 vs cayman S

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I may be in the minority, but I'd take a C2S over the Cayman S. I've had and driven both. Just preference. C2S drives like a GT3 in terms of dynamics, so if you like the GT3 and how it handles, I don't see why you wouldn't a C2S.

I find it funny many times (not here but in other forums, articles) that the very people that praise Porsche for "getting the engine placement right" in the Cayman and "wrong" in the 911, go on and love the GT3! How can one love the GT3 if the engine is in the "wrong place"? See what I mean? Yes, the GT3 is geared differently, has more downforce, more HP, etc., but really in the end it's a more powerful C2S. Same basic characteristics. If someone didn't like a C2S, then I can't imagine why they'd like a GT3. The Cayman is also a wonderful car, but very different and hard to compare to me. And the M3 is also a wonderful car, but again, different in handling characteristics. Pick your flavor based on what handling you like. Make sense?

Well it's like I told TOOMANYCARS. Preferring the challenging dynamics of the 911 is fine by me, though I can't say I prefer the 911 myself as I tracked both on the same occasion and found the Cayman to be the quicker and easiest to drive, allowing me to concenrate on your lines, braking points, etc.

[Robert]

Me like Cayman S. Agility over Brute. David Vs. Goliath

[Epik]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Maybe, but who cares right? Also, is this what most M3 owners have in their mind when they pull up to a "lesser" BMW model?

I think this is the real reason BMW doesn't come out with a car that truly competes with the 911, GTR, R8, 430, Gallardo.

Because right now it can pick up all the sales from guys who can't afford those cars and don't want to be in a lesser version such as a Cayman.

Not having a higher end car means M3 owners can keep their ego intact and feel high and mighty whenever they see a lowly 3 series and when they do come across 911, "it's not as practical" even though they never use the rear seats.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

Well it's like I told TOOMANYCARS. Preferring the challenging dynamics of the 911 is fine by me, though I can't say I prefer the 911 myself as I tracked both on the same occasion and found the Cayman to be the quicker and easiest to drive, allowing me to concenrate on your lines, braking points, etc.

I agree it's a preference, but a good and experienced driver should be faster in a C2S than in a Cayman S IMO. The other reason I prefer the C2S is because it's simply more rewarding for me.

I just watched Randy's clip you posted here from the MT article. And here's my take. I do think Porsche expects that the Cayman driver will perhaps be less talented on average, so they dial in a lot more understeer (as Randy himself says and from my own experience) into the Cayman. This of course can be corrected in different ways, but I'm just saying it's hardly ideal. It's there for the safety factor and put in for a reason - it's not accidental or an oversight is what I mean. The Cayman is easier to drive. Easier to push. And it makes the Cayman more accessible to many drivers with perhaps less experience. Makes them more confident to push. Just as Randy says. Now that's not a bad thing at all (in fact it's quite a good thing for many) but ultimately not as rewarding or as fast for some.

The other thing not mentioned in many discussions is how rewarding it is to drive a 911 fast. Understanding that you need more throttle when the back slides around (getting over that tail happy mental block) is key to being fast.
I learned on an old 911 before learning on Formula Fords and racing them. And it was really useful because they have a similar balance at the limit and need more throttle which in turn helps lap times.

Having said all of this, I admit that there is a real mental block one needs to get over (the tail happy mental block) to get the speed out of a 911. But then it becomes really an amazing car. Once you get past that block, it feels great and is more rewarding/fun/fast. But many never do get over that block...So it's hard to explain why a C2S would be more rewarding in that case.

In the MT video, Randy is correct in all he says. But I just wanted to add a bit. I don't think he'd disagree with what I've said.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I agree it's a preference, but a good and experienced driver should be faster in a C2S than in a Cayman S IMO. The other reason I prefer the C2S is because it's simply more rewarding for me.

I just watched Randy's clip you posted here from the MT article. And here's my take. I do think Porsche expects that the Cayman driver will perhaps be less talented on average, so they dial in a lot more understeer (as Randy himself says and from my own experience) into the Cayman. This of course can be corrected in different ways, but I'm just saying it's hardly ideal. It's there for the safety factor and put in for a reason - it's not accidental or an oversight is what I mean. The Cayman is easier to drive. Easier to push. As Randy says. Now that's not a bad thing at all, but ultimately not as rewarding or as fast for some people. And it makes the Cayman more accessible to the average driver. Makes them more confident to push. Just as Randy says. Now, again, this is a good thing for many, but not all. It's definitely not a bad thing - don't take it that way.

The other thing not mentioned in many discussions is how rewarding it is to drive a 911 fast. Understanding that you need more throttle when the back slides around (getting over that tail happy mental block) is key to being fast.
I learned on an old 911 before learning on Formula Fords and racing them. And it was really useful because they have a similar balance at the limit and need more throttle which in turn helps lap times.

Having said all of this, I admit that there is a real mental block one needs to get over (the tail happy mental block) to get the speed out of a 911. It becomes really an amazing car. Once you get past that block, it feels great and is more rewarding/fun/fast. But many never do get over that block...

In the MT video, Randy is correct in all he says. But I just wanted to add a bit. I don't think he'd disagree with what I've said.

I think bone stock, the C2S is faster all around! I agree with this and yes, I have driven them both with the new tranny as well as manual. The C2S for me feels, sounds, and drives better. I didn´t time these and drove them within several weeks of each other but on track and on a long road trip. Now, if you are into moding, the Cayman does present a chassis with greater potential, it just has no power!! lol.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by Epik

I think this is the real reason BMW doesn't come out with a car that truly competes with the 911, GTR, R8, 430, Gallardo.

Because right now it can pick up all the sales from guys who can't afford those cars and don't want to be in a lesser version such as a Cayman.

Not having a higher end car means M3 owners can keep their ego intact and feel high and mighty whenever they see a lowly 3 series and when they do come across 911, "it's not as practical" even though they never use the rear seats.

+1 Well said!

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I agree it's a preference, but a good and experienced driver should be faster in a C2S than in a Cayman S IMO. The other reason I prefer the C2S is because it's simply more rewarding for me.

I just watched Randy's clip you posted here from the MT article. And here's my take. I do think Porsche expects that the Cayman driver will perhaps be less talented on average, so they dial in a lot more understeer (as Randy himself says and from my own experience) into the Cayman. This of course can be corrected in different ways, but I'm just saying it's hardly ideal. It's there for the safety factor and put in for a reason - it's not accidental or an oversight is what I mean. The Cayman is easier to drive. Easier to push. And it makes the Cayman more accessible to many drivers with perhaps less experience. Makes them more confident to push. Just as Randy says. Now that's not a bad thing at all (in fact it's quite a good thing for many) but ultimately not as rewarding or as fast for some.

The other thing not mentioned in many discussions is how rewarding it is to drive a 911 fast. Understanding that you need more throttle when the back slides around (getting over that tail happy mental block) is key to being fast.
I learned on an old 911 before learning on Formula Fords and racing them. And it was really useful because they have a similar balance at the limit and need more throttle which in turn helps lap times.

Having said all of this, I admit that there is a real mental block one needs to get over (the tail happy mental block) to get the speed out of a 911. But then it becomes really an amazing car. Once you get past that block, it feels great and is more rewarding/fun/fast. But many never do get over that block...So it's hard to explain why a C2S would be more rewarding in that case.

In the MT video, Randy is correct in all he says. But I just wanted to add a bit. I don't think he'd disagree with what I've said.

OK, we need to understand something here, the Mk2 Cayman S with PDK and LSD is damn near as quick as a Mk2 997C2S similarly equipped yet does so with a lot less power so if they were completely like for like the Cayman would easily be the quicker of the two.

Hockenheim (sportauto)
Cayman S (320ps) : 1:13.9s
997C2S (385ps) : 1:13.4s

Next, the Cayman S does understeer, almost all cars do and there is a perfectly good reason for that but from my experience the 997 actually understeers on entry to the corner even more so. Yeah the Cayman is much easy to drive but is that seriously such a bad thing, some people might find the challenge of the 997 more rewarding which I do get but others who are less talented still prefer it because it's added difficulty makes driving the 997 more manly, which I don't get at all.

Given the choice of getting either car free but on the condishion that I couldn't sale it and had to drive it forever I would pick the Cayman every single time. The 997's waywardness nature everytime I drove it quickly for me at least is not something I relish, trysome is a word which springs to mind. For me at least the Cayman ticks all the boxes that one could ever want from a driver's car, it's quick, reasonably cheap, reasonable to maintain, looks smart both inside and out and is both rewarding to drive and won't bite your head off at the limit.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by footie

OK, we need to understand something here, the Mk2 Cayman S with PDK and LSD is damn near as quick as a Mk2 997C2S similarly equipped yet does so with a lot less power so if they were completely like for like the Cayman would easily be the quicker of the two.

Hockenheim (sportauto)
Cayman S (320ps) : 1:13.9s
997C2S (385ps) : 1:13.4s

Next, the Cayman S does understeer, almost all cars do and there is a perfectly good reason for that but from my experience the 997 actually understeers on entry to the corner even more so. Yeah the Cayman is much easy to drive but is that seriously such a bad thing, some people might find the challenge of the 997 more rewarding which I do get but others who are less talented still prefer it because it's added difficulty makes driving the 997 more manly, which I don't get at all.

Given the choice of getting either car free but on the condishion that I couldn't sale it and had to drive it forever I would pick the Cayman every single time. The 997's waywardness nature everytime I drove it quickly for me at least is not something I relish, trysome is a word which springs to mind. For me at least the Cayman ticks all the boxes that one could ever want from a driver's car, it's quick, reasonably cheap, reasonable to maintain, looks smart both inside and out and is both rewarding to drive and won't bite your head off at the limit.

Makes complete sense to me, the reason why the C2S is faster is only because it makes up for it on the straights with the added power.

[footie]

Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico

Makes complete sense to me, the reason why the C2S is faster is only because it makes up for it on the straights with the added power.

Yeah, 2 seconds quicker to 100mph makes a world of difference.

[MrHarris]

The C2S is 2 seconds quicker to 100 than the Cayman S both with PDK?

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

OK, we need to understand something here, the Mk2 Cayman S with PDK and LSD is damn near as quick as a Mk2 997C2S similarly equipped yet does so with a lot less power so if they were completely like for like the Cayman would easily be the quicker of the two.

Hockenheim (sportauto)
Cayman S (320ps) : 1:13.9s
997C2S (385ps) : 1:13.4s

Next, the Cayman S does understeer, almost all cars do and there is a perfectly good reason for that but from my experience the 997 actually understeers on entry to the corner even more so. Yeah the Cayman is much easy to drive but is that seriously such a bad thing, some people might find the challenge of the 997 more rewarding which I do get but others who are less talented still prefer it because it's added difficulty makes driving the 997 more manly, which I don't get at all.

Yeah, it's 1/2s close on the short Hockenheim circuit. What does that prove? Do we know the conditions? Same weather? Same driver? etc. etc. How does it do on most other circuits? Do you just search the Internet for the one lap where it's close? How does it do on the Nordschleife? etc. etc...I bet that it's not nearly as close. But does it even matter? That was not my main point in my post if you read it again. Yeah, it may very well be faster with the same engine and brakes. Will that happen? Time will tell. So far it hasn't, though the upgrade with LSD was nice. We'll see.

My point was more about handling and the understeer that's built into the Cayman for reasons stated. And for me (and others I know) the 911 is more rewarding and fun to drive. Is that not what it's about? The tail happy nature of the 911 pushes you the driver to get on the gas quicker/earlier on in the corner. And that is what helps to drop lap times. In the Cayman I can just drift through a corner - adding throttle will push. Like in most cars that have push dialed in. In the 911 adding throttle will make it dig in. Just like in the Formula 1600 and 2000 cars I drove and raced. That is what you want (at least what I wanted!). If you say you found the 911 to understeer more - something is not right. To each his own. I just know that the ones that don't lift and push, can drive the 911s faster than the Caymans. But most will lift - the barrier I was talking about. And I am talking about at the limit. I'm not talking driving 8/10ths. I'm talking driving the heck out of the cars. And unless you do that, you won't understand what I mean. I mean you as in plural you.

Anyhow, this is my input, that's all. A different viewpoint perhaps. Based on many hours of driving on track and racing.

Look the Cayman is a great car, I had one myself! I never said anything bad about it, but let's not proclaim it as the #1 just yet. I never said it was a bad thing, in fact I said it's a good thing it's easier to drive - for most. But not for all. That was my point. I have no clue about drivers who have no talent and want to challenge themselves with a 911 to be more manly. Maybe. Don't care to be honest. I've seen idiots do all sorts of things. Worse things. Doesn't surprise me one bit. I just wanted you to understand (or see) my point of view. Because I know others share it. I'm just offering what I hope is valuable input. That should be the goal, no?



EDIT: I realize I use the word push for both throttle input and understeer. Hopefully it won't create any confusion in context.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by griff

To overtake a car on a track day does not prove anything as the car in front could have been driven by a pussy!
People talk about handling who have not got a clue what makes a car handle well in the first place.
The bmw 3 series range has always had a huge design advantage in its 50:50
weight distribution which makes it so much more balanced on road or track than any porsche can hope for.
I have owned and driven many porsche's and enjoyed them a lot and to get the best from them is a good challenge.But a car that allows itself to be driven fast with ease will always win a handling test and races too.
Afew years ago bmw entered the nurburgring 24 hour race two years running wit am m3 v8 the gtr and won so convincingly witn 500 bhp and a five speed manual box and was pitted against audi porsche etc etc and many of those with a lot more power and sequential gearboxes but the bmw's just blitzed all the competion due to the driveability of the car.

And of course that car was absolutely identical to the one you can buy at your local BMW dealer.

CA

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

If you say you found the 911 to understeer more - something is not right.

The understeer happens on entry and nowhere else, it's here that I find the Cayman to grip harder and I'm talking like for like, not a GT3 vs Cayman. I personally find the Cayman to be much better balanced through the entire corner, unlike the 997 which can be a bit all over the place ranging from understeer to oversteer and everywhere in between.

That's the difference between us here (i.e. you and me), you clearly are looking for that challenge in your daily driver where as myself I am not.

P.S.
Both the Cayman S and 997C2S were driven by Horst himself.

[mixja]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

The C2S is 2 seconds quicker to 100 than the Cayman S both with PDK?

Using CarTest simulator which seems to be fairly accurate, C2S PDK is 0-100 in 9.54s and Cayman S PDK is in 10.45s.

Out of interest it says DCT Coupe in 9.99s and MT Coupe in 10.43s...

[lazyassand1balla24]

easy choice for me... M3

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

The understeer happens on entry and nowhere else, it's here that I find the Cayman to grip harder and I'm talking like for like, not a GT3 vs Cayman. I personally find the Cayman to be much better balanced through the entire corner, unlike the 997 which can be a bit all over the place ranging from understeer to oversteer and everywhere in between.

That's the difference between us here (i.e. you and me), you clearly are looking for that challenge in your daily driver where as myself I am not.

P.S.
Both the Cayman S and 997C2S were driven by Horst himself.

footie, I wish I could show you what I mean over beers, because IMO the 911 platform is still one of the best! But there's the "myth" and the "barrier" as I like to call them which cause a lot of negativity when talking about the 911. I spoke of the barrier. I'm not looking for a challenge at all. For me it's just more fun and rewarding to drive a 911. If you drive it well, you can get a lot more out of it than the Cayman. Sort of like I find using a 6MT more fun and rewarding than an auto. Just like if you drive the Cayman well, you can get a lot more out of it than the M3. And if you drive the M3 well, you get the picture.. Horses for courses as I said. Sure. But some things are not subjective - they are objective. And I'll try to explain - hopefully not in vain. Here goes:

What you describe above is classic 911 behavior when someone is not very familiar with the 911 dynamics. I didn't understand what you meant before, but I do now. An example is this:

You are about to enter a 70 mph corner, but you enter too slow and realize mid-corner this car has tons of grip, you add throttle but you really don't have enough torque to instantly slide the rears since you're going slowly enough and the wide rears can handle it. All the weight transfers to the back now, giving the rears even more grip, the front unloads and the outside tire is now being way over taxed, often now more steering is added at the same time as the car arc starts to open, again wrong answer, 911s end up pushing like a pig on exit and you need to lift as you're sliding off the road now. In the older cars that is when the snap oversteer happens and you stuff it in the guardrail. Let off the gas quick to keep it on the road, front bites, back end rotates around, and you're headed the wrong direction in a blink... This and the braking while turning created the tail happy myth of the 911. Most issues with the rear engine were gone once the tire size increased like 4 decades ago. And other changes. Mostly to fix that snap oversteer (which was also a driver mistake too BTW - but the car was very difficult to drive). But the myth continues in the press, etc. "Engine in wrong place, etc. car will spin out of control, etc.". Well it works. It's proven. The Cayman platform not yet - not on track at least. Let's see where Porsche decides to take it. For sure they can make it good. If they want to. But as it is, it needs more work.

That's of course not to say the Cayman is not a fantastic car to drive. Just less rewarding for some people, and not as fast over many laps (more on that below). For me and others. Not all. I realize this. I tried to break down why the 911 acts the way it does with regards to understeer and all over the place. But once you're over that barrier and used to it, you'll see how wonderful it really is. It can do things most cars can't. It's becomes predictable and not wild at all. So to me it's a better handling car. But it takes time to learn it.

Now let's talk speed as it relates to handling:

At a track where the Cayman will be close in speed to the 911 over a single lap (like you listed), the difference will start to increase as the laps add up. A LOT! Why? Because cars with small handling issues over a single lap, understeer (Cayman and M3), brakes (M3), power on oversteer (M3), etc. etc., will become dramatically worse after 10-20 laps. Subtle handling issues can be driven around over a single lap by a good driver, but after a few the tires being abused will overheat and performance will really drop fast. Slight push for one lap just crank in more steering, but it get worse lap after lap until it's a major lap time hit and you need to slow down to keep it on the pavement...

This is why it's hard to look at single lap records and have them be meaningful. If they broke down the corners, it would be a lot more telling which car is handling better. Looking at entry/exit speed, etc. But they don't. A lap record can be more telling when the difference is larger. If you look at the same 911 and Cayman over a larger/longer track, the time gap should increase. Because it's like more laps on a smaller track as I was saying, and the difference becomes more apparent.

So yeah, I hope some of this made sense. This is why I only comment as much on cars I've owned and driven a lot. Because I know you have to really know them to have a meaningful input. And it's why I generally ignore magazine articles, comparisons, etc. Specs are good too, but they never tell the whole story. Just as single lap times don't.

All this aside, yes, there is personal preference of course. I've said that from the beginning.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by graider

i hope porsche can't sell and provide massive discount across the line up. we all benefit. lol

If you've walked into a Porsche dealer to test drive the Cayman your talking sh it about then you would know that 10% is very easy to get off the msrp. On top of that Porsche has one of the biggest profit margins in the automotive industry.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by graider

Just their look alone killed any intention to even test drive these car for me.

Says the guy with the Diarrhea yellow/lemon interior M3.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by graider

i don't know why you feel so offensive and upset in this discussion. but let me ask you this, why are you buying the m3 instead of a 911 or cayman if you think they are so superior? I believe the cayman is even cheaper than the m3.

With popular options, a CS is just right there with a loaded M3. No one is going to spec out a Cayman with 20-30k of options. Just doesn't make any sense.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by graider

I'm not saying handling/performance is not important, but they are just a tiny aspect of any car purchase decision.

Hypocrite. You drive a M3. If handling and performance wasn't a problem, why didn't you just pick up a e46 330ci? Great car btw. Used to have a 01'. Still miss it.

[MrHarris]

If any of you are such as graider is disregarding the Cayman S or even 997/997s as being not "top of the line" and therefore can't hang with the "top of the line" 3 series (M3) then you guys really need to re-evaluate that mindset.

If anything the M3 competes with the standard 997, and gets destroyed by the 997s, and guess what? There is still the turbo, GT2, and GT3. As far as the Cayman S goes, with PDK it's just about as fast as an M3 stock for stock, and will outhandle it.

It's fortunate the M3 can even compete with these focused sports cars considering the M3 will be more comfortable, easier to live with, more passenger room and luggage room all while still performing at a very high level. It just depends on what suits us best, but don't disregard anything less than a Turbo/GT2/GT3 just because it doesn't look cool enough for you.

[a burrito]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Also if I was in a Cayman and a 911 pulled up to me, I don't know what I'd do with the amount of self-embarrassment and failure I'd put on myself for letting him make me think I'm somehow not worthy of a real Porsche

What's not real about it? Its BMW that needs a ///M badge to upscale their cars. Can you say a 328 is a performer? What about a 128i? Thats the difference between a bmw and a Porsche. When you buy a 3 series, they let you know its a damn 3 series. When you buy a M3, they let you know.

But when you buy a Porsche. You'll still outbrake, outhandle better than average. A Non-S variant and a S variant will have the same body/chassis/shell but difference engines and brakes to accommodate it.

What do you get in a BMW? Oh in a 3 series, they let you know it can't handle or perform as great as a M3. In a 328 they let you know its the econo-BMW cause it looks like absolute ass with those 16's wrapped in the mud and snow tires. Performance? don't even think about it.

You guys make these strange links between a Cayman and the GT3. Dude, ride in a damn GT3. Its just not as comfortable as a Cayman. And to DD that car it would be very tough or you must be very young to tolerate the stiffness. The GT3 is for the Porsche track junkies and the like. Its not a Cayman on pcp.

The next person that even compares the feel of a Turbo to a Cayman should be banned. All those who know know that a Turbo is a fat pig compared to anything else on the porsche 911/Cayman/Boxster line. However, a Fat Pig in Porsches line can still outhandle/outbrake far better than average. The 997 TT is your SL65. Its a fast as s car in a straight line. It can handle too but you'd rather have the GT3 for the twisties.

Lastly, PORSCHE doesn't distinguish a ///M line. You know why? Because a lot of their R&D is comes from motorsports.