is the next genration M3 giong back to Inline 6? twin tubo?

[marwan]

just a thought, now that the next generation M5 is rumored to go V8 twin turbo due to tight emission regulation, it made wonder what the M3's engine would be. Do you think it'll remain with the NA V8? or do you think BMW would drop it back to I6...maybe twin turbo? which would also force the 335(or whatever the model number would be) to stick to I6 without any forced induction

please discuss!

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by marwan

just a thought, now that the next generation M5 is rumored to go V8 twin turbo due to tight emission regulation, it made wonder what the M3's engine would be. Do you think it'll remain with the NA V8? or do you think BMW would drop it back to I6...maybe twin turbo? which would also force the 335(or whatever the model number would be) to stick to I6 without any forced induction

Twin turbo doesn't give enought in this current block - BMW is expected to have triple turbo I6 engine under development that should push somewhere around 450 hp. That's enough for several applications...including the next M3.

[marwan]

yah but do you thing the next M3 would go I6 with a buncha Turbos? hell the Nissan GTR is pushing 480hp with a V6 twin turbo, i don't see why BMW can't achieve the same, if not better.

[J08M3]

I think it should be supercharged

[booforty]

They will probably supercharge the V8, can't see them going back to straight-six

[Ken37.73]

Supercharged V8 - would be up for a piece of that action

[marwan]

isn't turbo better than supercharge?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by marwan

just a thought, now that the next generation M5 is rumored to go V8 twin turbo due to tight emission regulation, it made wonder what the M3's engine would be. Do you think it'll remain with the NA V8? or do you think BMW would drop it back to I6...maybe twin turbo? which would also force the 335(or whatever the model number would be) to stick to I6 without any forced induction

please discuss!

I'm pretty skeptical about those M5 rumors myself. These rumors seem to get started when someone sees a test mule, here's the exhaust, and proclaims that they know both exactly what's under the hood and exactly what future car the mule is testing. I mean how many times have we heard about the supposed V10 powered X5 M? Never happened, never will. And even once people accepted that the X5 mule has a Turbo V8, they still insist on calling it an M and blasting it on every blog on the internet.

For the next M5, it would make more sense to stick with a V10 and destroke it, lower compression and add a turbo. Similar for M3 with the V8. They've got lots of R&D into these engine programs and while its true they could use the turbo 8 in the M5 and a new turbo I6 in the M3, I just remain unconvinced believe that's going to happen.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by marwan

isn't turbo better than supercharge?

why would it be better? just a different way to make power. I personally like the fact that superchargers give you instant power, compared to a turbo that has to spool up. They are also much simpler to make and install, not that that is important if it comes stock from the factory.

[footie]

To go triple turboing sounds like way to much weight, the amount of tubing required would be excessive.

With the developments being made in supercharger technology it maybe the perfect solution for the economical mind public of today/future. There is talk that Audi will be going a similar route for their future RS models, so why not BMW.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a rear mounted gearbox in the future, that would allow the engine further back with better crash/pedestrians levels which also seem to be at the forefront of current public thinking.

[Big Windy]

it is way too early to tell. i would guess that they will stick with the V8 for one more iteration...

[gadget]

Agree that if BMW shifts from NA to FI engines, superchargers will be the way to go. Unlike a turbo, superchargers deliver constant linear power. Having a turbo on an M would add a lot of unpredictability to the handling which IMHO takes away from the M nature.

I've driven a friends Jaguar XKR (the new one) and the sound of the V8 supercharger makes is beastly and awesome. Keep in mind this is a 4.2 litter Ford engine cranking out 420HP and loads more torque than the M3. If BMW put a supercharger on the current engine, I would think they could create an engine that would easily hit 500HP. The sound of 8400K rpms plus the whine of the supercharger would be pure sex.

[footie]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Superchargers are parasitic -- meaning they take power away from the motor to make power. Turbochargers are not parasitic -- they are powered by the exhaust gas.

I'll be surprised if I'm not the 3rd or 4th person to already mention this (I haven't read the remainder of the thread).

As a long time turbo driver I know and understand your thinking, the engine is in reality making close to 100hp more than quoted figures because the supercharger is using that amount to drive itself. But I don't think we will see huge improvements in overall output or mpg, if a supercharger is used an improvement of 5~8% mpg is possible while C02 need to drop from it's current 295 to a more acceptable 230.

A 3.6L supercharger unit could comfortably produce 450hp and similar amounts of torque while maintaining the a rev limit close to the current engine.

With SC you don't have the same lag no matter how small and it output can mimic closer to a N/A unit which you seldom see from a turbo application, whether by choice or not.

[Serious]

dont expect to see superchargers IMO.

they use too much fuel compared to a turbo application.

The game has changed a little bit... its not just about performance anymore... its about performance + fuel economy. Turbocharged applications accomplish that feat much more efficiently then NA or SC configurations (at least in window sticker... the way M cars are driven it probably wont be better then NA)

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Superchargers are parasitic -- meaning they take power away from the motor to make power. Turbochargers are not parasitic -- they are powered by the exhaust gas.

I know that. That's why I made the statement about two different ways to make power. Certainly doesn't say one is better than the other. But in my opinion if it was to get either I think the ///M is better suited with a supercharger.

[!Xoible]

whatever it is it better be high-rev happy and better be NA. Imagine FI'd M3 with redline of 7k, and limp mode FTL

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'm pretty skeptical about those M5 rumors myself. These rumors seem to get started when someone sees a test mule, here's the exhaust, and proclaims that they know both exactly what's under the hood and exactly what future car the mule is testing. I mean how many times have we heard about the supposed V10 powered X5 M? Never happened, never will. And even once people accepted that the X5 mule has a Turbo V8, they still insist on calling it an M and blasting it on every blog on the internet.

For the next M5, it would make more sense to stick with a V10 and destroke it, lower compression and add a turbo. Similar for M3 with the V8. They've got lots of R&D into these engine programs and while its true they could use the turbo 8 in the M5 and a new turbo I6 in the M3, I just remain unconvinced believe that's going to happen.

True. Twin turbo V10 would deliver 600-650 hp easily. But today, it's all about fuel consumption and emissions. Even new Lamborghini LP 560-4 is emitting 30-40% less pollution than previous model! Therefore, it's very difficult to push CO2 to around 250 g/km level from the current 360 g/km class NA V10 now has.

F10 M5 engine basic concept has already been freezed. The "ordinary" car is coming out next year and M5 in basically far under development. You can always generate rumours, but for example CAR magazine has very good connections with certain persons high in executive boards. Of course, these persons can't tell whole story, but remember that there are more than, say, 500 persons in Germany who really know what engine solution the next M5 will use. So, it's not any special case that this info is leaking out.

Big magazines have to maintain their quality and if they really say that something is out, it usually is true. Otherwise, they lose their readers. Websites are the different thing, there much less need to clarify sources and info. I have worked as a journalist since mid 1990's and delivered stories for high-grade magazines in over 20 countries. It's extremely important to maintain your quality if you are a heavy player in media field - like CAR, EVO and AMS today.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

whatever it is it better be high-rev happy and better be NA. Imagine FI'd M3 with redline of 7k, and limp mode FTL

Forced induction does not mean it cannot be high revving. The old turbo 4 F1 motors rev'd to over 10k. Also, forced induction does not mean it will be unreliable on the track either.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

But today, it's all about fuel consumption and emissions.

Right, but its not as simple as less cylinders = less fuel. Displacement figures in heavily, and like I said they can destroke the V10. Suppose they destroke the V10 to 4.5L and add a turbo. Now, can we predict this will be less efficient than the current N64 4.4L turbo V8 in the X6 and 7? No we can't. There are many, many factors involved. Furthermore, even if it was less efficient, say, just a bit less efficient, will the V8 offer the engine experience anywhere near what an M model requires? With proper R&D it probably could, but will the tradeoffs be worth it? The same appiles to using a turbo S65 in the M5 also. Its not guaranteed it will be more efficient than a V10 of similar displacement.

This is why I say that I don't buy the rumors. At least not yet.

You can always generate rumours, but for example CAR magazine has very good connections with certain persons high in executive boards. Of course, these persons can't tell whole story, but remember that there are more than, say, 500 persons in Germany who really know what engine solution the next M5 will use. So, it's not any special case that this info is leaking out.

Absolutely agree. However, no one is disputing there is a turbo-charged V8 5 series on the way. That's 100% guaranteed. It is the F10 550i. The question is, will the M5 also be a turbo V8? Right now, if I had to bet on it, I'd be forced to put my money on a "no" for the turbo V8 in the F10 M5. Maybe I'd be wrong, but at this point I just don't feel like there's enough info to call it the most likely scenario to play out.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

F10 M5 engine basic concept has already been freezed. The "ordinary" car is coming out next year and M5 in basically far under development. You can always generate rumours, but for example CAR magazine has very good connections with certain persons high in executive boards. Of course, these persons can't tell whole story, but remember that there are more than, say, 500 persons in Germany who really know what engine solution the next M5 will use. So, it's not any special case that this info is leaking out.

Big magazines have to maintain their quality and if they really say that something is out, it usually is true. Otherwise, they lose their readers. Websites are the different thing, there much less need to clarify sources and info. I have worked as a journalist since mid 1990's and delivered stories for high-grade magazines in over 20 countries. It's extremely important to maintain your quality if you are a heavy player in media field - like CAR, EVO and AMS today.

This one makes me laugh. Car Magazine had such good connections to BMW. In early '07 they claimed that the current M3 would have its number plate in the bumper. I reckon the information which engine's used for a car due in 2011 is harder to get.


Best regards, south

[KonigsTiger]

Ohh its always so nice to speculate. Well, I don't think it will be S/C, I think turbos but God only knows.

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by southlight

This one makes me laugh. Car Magazine had such good connections to BMW. In early '07 they claimed that the current M3 would have its number plate in the bumper.

Well...you think the location of the number plate is a kind of information BMW execs and division managers are informing Car? Big boys talk about big things and Car is a key player in automotive media field whatever we say. Of course mistakes happen. But, what comes to general info regarding news, they are usually quite reliable - probably more reliable than any other publication.