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11-09-2008, 03:52 AM | #23 |
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March~May & Sept~Oct will probably produce the quickest possible time as track surface temp should still be good and air temp won't be at it's hottest.
7:25 for a 464hp CSL, somehow I doubt that one, it's just a shame we will never know. |
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11-09-2008, 04:37 AM | #24 |
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11-09-2008, 04:39 AM | #25 |
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Provided it's dry and the temperatures are above 6/7 degrees C, then traction effects are minor, but air density this time of the year is good, so perhaps there's a slight advantage. But the same will be true for the GT2.
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11-09-2008, 06:39 AM | #26 | |
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P.S. Best report on the wind speed as well. |
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11-09-2008, 01:15 PM | #28 | |
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Again the figure was BETWEEN 7:25 and 7:30, not 7:25 in particular. Also keep in mind the assumptions. +50 hp, -300 lb, MPSC tires, light wheels, M-DCT, tweaked chassis, suspension and brakes just as previous generation CSL, ace driver and great track conditions. A car of these specs, if able to over perform just as much as the previous generation E46 M3 CSL should be capable of a time in this range. Although we may not find out with BMW's official CSL, many folks will be building tweaked ones with loosely similar specs and will be hitting the ring. We may find out much more than you think. Anyway we are both getting way way off topic. |
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11-10-2008, 11:03 AM | #29 | |
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I didn't give a figure because at the time I hadn't thought much on the subject and didn't feel giving a half-arsed reply would be the right thing to do. OK, 1: What is the chance of a 300lbs weight lose? This might be pushing it as most CSL were purchased with air-con and stereo, both of which bumped up the weight by quite a bit and now that the 997GT3 comes with both standard I doubt BMW will not offer the same. 2: The current CUP tyres are standard spec in Europe when you order the 19" alloys. This will be the same for the new CSL unless a new and better version is made by Michelin which I doubt. 3: The extra 50hp will make a big difference on the long straights and should improve the time by quite a bit, as will a more race specced suspension and strengthening to the chassis. If the M-DCT M3 can improve by 5 seconds over the manual then that will drop the current M3's time to 8 minutes dead, the extra power should yield another 8 seconds and the suspension another 10 seconds. That would put the CSL at 7:42 with maybe another 4 seconds for a more modest 150lbs drop. So I reckon the M3 CSL could possibly be capable of a 7:38~7:40 time and I believe that is an impressive improvement on what was a truly amazing car (E46 CSL). |
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11-10-2008, 01:07 PM | #30 | |||
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I am not sure, but this was the drop in the E46 so I simply used it as a guidline. Quote:
Don't forget there would be a definite difference for Horst from SA driving vs. a factory ace (not that I think such factory ace times should be held in higher regard or as more of a standard than SA)! This should be in the 5-10 second range. With that in mind I think we actually agree. |
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11-10-2008, 04:33 PM | #31 | |
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Unsure if you can still get the original CUP tyres. I was under the impression that only the CUP+ are available now and when you consider the 997GT3RS is also only available with this version I think I might be right in this thinking. Also was the CUP+ not developed to be better in the wet which would surely give the advantage on daily drive. |
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11-10-2008, 06:08 PM | #32 | |
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Yes Cup+ was designed for better wet performance, which guarantees worse ultimate dry performance. Which makes a better daily driver depends on how much it rains where you live. |
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11-10-2008, 06:38 PM | #33 |
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Top Gear Australia had the GT-R up against the Porsche GT2, the GT2 beat it around there track by 3sec, Stig drove both.
But the main point was the Pressenter did not believe that the time done at the Ring by the GT-R was a true representation on the GT-R that he had driven and ones he had driven in the past. What he was implying was the GT-R they used was not standard car. He went on to say it was heavier and had less power so in current guise something would have needed to be changed to do the time. I don't think Nissan would have been to happy about seeing that on our national TV. Overall he liked the car for the price and there was no mention of transmission problems or that you cannot use LC. They seemed to be more impressed with the GT2!
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11-11-2008, 01:33 AM | #34 |
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The evidence is quite widespread from message boards, to print journalists, to factory test drivers, race drivers, TV journalists, even other competing OEMs; they all agree 7:29 is not possible with factory specs. In my opinion the biggest questions about that particular car are:
1. hp - most reasonable folks admit a substantial under rating, the question is just how much is "substantial". 2. Torque 3. Weight 4. Suspension tweaks (within factory specs and tolerances or not) 5. Tires - were they any special version, specially treated or flat out not the true 100% legit OEM factory tires. |
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11-11-2008, 02:20 AM | #35 | |
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Maybe someone from Europe with a CSL can enlighten us as to whether they are still available here on special offer. |
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11-12-2008, 04:09 PM | #36 | |
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You could be absolutely correct about the Cup+ plus being less effective than the original PSC in the dry, but it's not a given that a tire doing better in the wet means it won't do as well under more ideal conditions. After all, Michelin came out with the PS2 (while continuing to build the original Pilot Sport even now, I believe) to work moderately well in the wet, which trust me, the Pilot Sport won't do. Their claim is that the PS2 is very slightly better in the dry as well, but I admit that marketing said that. Bruce |
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11-12-2008, 05:47 PM | #37 | |
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11-12-2008, 06:25 PM | #38 | |
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Now that I think about it, however, I've never driven a street tire on track that didn't get greasy after a few laps. Can't actually compare these two in that regard, however. Never put in enough laps. Bruce Edit: I just noticed (duh) you were talking about Pilot Sport Cups, while I was talking about Pilot Sports. The evolution of the Pilot Sport is the PS2, and the dry handling of these two tires is very nearly identical. Sport Cups are obviously a different matter. Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 11-13-2008 at 09:35 AM.. Reason: Lack of reading ability on my part |
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11-13-2008, 11:52 AM | #39 | |
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This page describes the dual compound feature of the tire for improved wet performance but also describes it as just the MPSC and calls the MPSC+ as a slightly modified OEM version. The modification of grooving sounds as if it is to further enhance wet performance. Perhaps a previous generation of the MPSC (non plus) did not have any design features (dual compound) for improved wet performance. It is odd that a tire designed for all out track performance does have this compromise. |
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11-13-2008, 01:20 PM | #40 | ||
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A proper track tyre for dry use is a slick, but clearly that would be useless in day to day driving which the M3CSL was designed for. The original CUP tyre was a compromise which happened to be not that great in the wet or cold but this has been improved with the latest version, no doubt the one after that will be even better in both disiplines. |
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11-14-2008, 12:06 PM | #41 | |
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Bottom line, at a guess it's extremely close indeed to the PSC, and pretty far removed from the PS2 or Pilot Sport. lucid, did you see my amended post about three back? Apparently we're at mixed signals, with me referring to the Pilot Sport and you referring to the Pilot Sport Cup. Bruce |
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11-14-2008, 12:12 PM | #42 |
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No disagreement with this. However there is never a free lunch. The modifications in the tire that improve wet grip limit ultimate dry grip. So I disagree with the statement above about silicon.
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11-14-2008, 04:30 PM | #43 | |
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But sometimes you do get a free lunch. When we replaced the Pilot Sports on our E46 M3 with PS2s, the cost was the same, with similar ultimate dry grip, but wet-weather traction was much improved. Bruce |
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11-14-2008, 04:44 PM | #44 | |
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It's the equivalent to saying the E46 should be quicker than the E92 because the newer car has a more comfortable ride. I know, stupid comparison but you get the point. |
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