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      11-06-2008, 07:23 AM   #1
monaroCountry
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More drivers question Nissan's Nurburgring time

Chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno said the new GT-R "could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58." This fits perfectly with the recent times achieved by various professional drivers.



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Here a couple of interesting observations from Nissan's GT-R record drive, that come from a highly reliable source without any connections to/interest in Porsche.

Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:

* stripped out interior
* missing pre-cat
* use of 110 octane race fuel

These were the changes/alterations that my friend could observe. They indicate that weight was below and power well above a standard car. Given these "improvements" it appears likely that the car also featured non-standard rubber - but this last comment is only an assumption.

Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.

Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.

Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.
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Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)

So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!

The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!

But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun!

If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße
* Wolf could be Wolfgang Kaufmann *

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"We bought the car in the US. We drove a GT-R with new tyres," he says.

Achleitner was initially protective of the exact lap times, which were run during a program when Porsche also compared its upcoming four-door Panamera with a range of potential rivals.

But he eventually revealed his team clocked the GT-R at 7 minutes 54 seconds, with the 911 Turbo managing 7:38 and the GT2 getting down to 7:34.

The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, former world rally champion and race winner Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis
Finally from the great man himself, Horst von Saurma

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A time less than 7:40 is pretty much optimistic, 7:50 shows the true potential of the car.
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      11-06-2008, 11:18 AM   #2
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The list of names here are impressive and in a way harder to argue with than even swamp data. But I have seen enough evidence to say that the GTR is special in a way that the 997Turbo isn't. I have yet to see one example of where the Turbo has proven to be quicker than the GTR on any track, it quicker on every acceleration run and even posts quicker trap speeds on these laps but still can't match the sheer speed of the GTR in the corners.
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      11-06-2008, 11:35 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The list of names here are impressive and in a way harder to argue with than even swamp data. But I have seen enough evidence to say that the GTR is special in a way that the 997Turbo isn't. I have yet to see one example of where the Turbo has proven to be quicker than the GTR on any track, it quicker on every acceleration run and even posts quicker trap speeds on these laps but still can't match the sheer speed of the GTR in the corners.
Yeah, but it still shows how far from the truth 7:29 really is.... combine that with the BS warranty issues that Nissan is imposing this whole thing is shaping up to be a bigger joke than it already is. Is it a car that performs well, sure. But at what cost?
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      11-06-2008, 01:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The list of names here are impressive and in a way harder to argue with than even swamp data.
The most interesting thing is the confluence of unrelated pieces of information which all point to the exact same thing. This is what I enjoy seeing - consistency.
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      11-06-2008, 05:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monaroCountry View Post
Chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno said the new GT-R "could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58." This fits perfectly with the recent times achieved by various professional drivers.







* Wolf could be Wolfgang Kaufmann *



Finally from the great man himself, Horst von Saurma
Wow, a whole bunch of undated, unsourced quotes, impressive!
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      11-06-2008, 07:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Wow, a whole bunch of undated, unsourced quotes, impressive!
A reasonable criticism. I can certainly say I have heard the one from Horst over and over though. OP - perhaps you can provide the source of the quotes for us? It is a tough crowd we have here!
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      11-06-2008, 08:00 PM   #7
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7:29 was obviously a con job, but there is nothing to be ashamed of a 7:45-7:50!

I mean a Pagani Zonda F is at 7:25 and Carrera Gt 7:28, so 7:29 is complete BS!!
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      11-06-2008, 09:43 PM   #8
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I just don't understand why did'nt Nissan just bring out a limited edition or special order, no back seat, different exhaust, a couple more HP, special tyres etc and do the 7:29 that way.

The GT2 here in Australia is like that, a mate of mine just pulled the roll cage out of his and put the back seats back in to make it a road car.
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      11-07-2008, 12:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
I just don't understand why did'nt Nissan just bring out a limited edition or special order, no back seat, different exhaust, a couple more HP, special tyres etc and do the 7:29 that way.
That is what I don't understand either.

What are they going to do when they try and set a lap for the V-spec, when the base GTR time was fudged.
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      11-07-2008, 01:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
That is what I don't understand either.

What are they going to do when they try and set a lap for the V-spec, when the base GTR time was fudged.
I think they just f**ked up. Panicked, had to show Porsche there car was quick and didn't think people would question it. Took out 100lbs gave it a few more HP, the problem was the time was just a little too good and the average Nissan GTR cannot come near it.

That will teach them, they won't make that mistake twice, but there reputation will take sometime to recover!

And your right the V-spec time will now be disappointing and if the transmission is the weak spot in the GTR what will it be like in the spec version, use once and rebuild after.
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      11-07-2008, 09:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
I think they just f**ked up. Panicked, had to show Porsche there car was quick and didn't think people would question it. Took out 100lbs gave it a few more HP, the problem was the time was just a little too good and the average Nissan GTR cannot come near it.

That will teach them, they won't make that mistake twice, but there reputation will take sometime to recover!

And your right the V-spec time will now be disappointing and if the transmission is the weak spot in the GTR what will it be like in the spec version, use once and rebuild after.
They were at the 'Ring for months, and the avowed goal was to beat up on the Porsche Turbo. You think they just couldn't? They posted the 7:38, which caused a great deal of furor, but said at the time that the course wasn't optimal, so they came back and posted a 7:29.

That sound like panic to you?

The V-Spec will be down in the 'teens - and swamp will go back to work.

Bruce

PS - At a guess, the V-spec will be no harder on the trans than the current version. More torque (probably), but definitely less weight.
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      11-07-2008, 11:05 AM   #12
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All we have here is multiple threads basically on the exact same thing 'The GTR can't post this time in stock form' and almost always the same people post on them.

I still believe that Nissan wouldn't be that stupid to fake their thing with a car so far off stock. You have to remember that more than one manufacturer will be testing during their sessions and word would have gotten out long before now if it had have been this blatant a lie.

There is still countless amounts of evidence pointing to the fact that against the 997Turbo it is miles quicker when both are on the track together at the same time and in the same conditions. Also most of the stuff I have seen place the GTR almost on par with the GT2 and those occasions are on a very smooth race track very unlike what the ring is. In fact the only other place where these other exotic cars have been tested against the GTR in similar conditions to what you get at the ring is the time Autocar tested in the Isle of Man and there the GTR reigned supreme.

Though I still can't explain why so many other drivers are having such problems getting close to the Nissan time of 7:29. Even if Nissan were doing everything said in the OP's opening statement that would only account for possibly 6 seconds improvement (7:35) and none of the drivers are even getting close within 10 seconds of that.

The only other car I can think of with is equally brilliant everywhere else but less so on the ring is the Audi R8 and that's a lot more explainable because of it's lack of acceleration. The GTR is miles quicker than the R8 in acceleration and cornering, so if the R8 can post a 7:50 in the hands of Audi (unofficially) and 7:56 in SA's hands then one would expect the much quicker GTR to knock an easy 15 seconds off that.

The jury is still out.
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      11-08-2008, 04:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
All we have here is multiple threads basically on the exact same thing 'The GTR can't post this time in stock form' and almost always the same people post on them.
Including the top poster, yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I still believe that Nissan wouldn't be that stupid to fake their thing with a car so far off stock. You have to remember that more than one manufacturer will be testing during their sessions and word would have gotten out long before now if it had have been this blatant a lie.

....

The jury is still out.
A fairly good percentage of folks swallow what is dished out the them hook line and sinker. To all of the GT-R fanboys the car HAS done a 7:29 and IT DID it with 480 hp. We both know that is a joke. You readily admit that car probably had 530 hp. Oh well, what is 50 hp among friends. It is a big fat lie. The jury is out on how under rated THAT car was, not IF it was under rated.

BTW, how quick do you think a E92 with 464 hp M3 would lap the N'Ring? How about a "CSL equivalently tuned" 464 hp E92 M3? Just a random question for some thought...
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      11-08-2008, 04:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The V-Spec will be down in the 'teens - and swamp will go back to work.
All depends on the quoted specs and achieved time.
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      11-08-2008, 05:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Including the top poster, yourself.
I openly admit I like yourself am one of the big players in this debate.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
A fairly good percentage of folks swallow what is dished out the them hook line and sinker. To all of the GT-R fanboys the car HAS done a 7:29 and IT DID it with 480 hp. We both know that is a joke. You readily admit that car probably had 530 hp. Oh well, what is 50 hp among friends. It is a big fat lie. The jury is out on how under rated THAT car was, not IF it was under rated.
I never wrote a figure about how under powered the GTR was until the dealer told me they were all under rated by about 10% and to be honest the evidence from dynos show this to be the case, anything from 520~550hp has been seen, meaning poor quality control on the early examples.

It's very interesting to compare the ZR1 against the CXX on that final straight, I basically found that the ZR1 held the CXX right up to a point half way up the straight (roughly about 165mph) and only after this did the CXX pull clear air between them. Does this mean the ZR1 wasn't stock (j/k).

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
BTW, how quick do you think a E92 with 464 hp M3 would lap the N'Ring? How about a "CSL equivalently tuned" 464 hp E92 M3? Just a random question for some thought...

I would love to know that. The rubber can't improve because the M3 was already tested on r-compound, so all of the improvement have to come from the chassis, weight savings and the power. Please tell me your findings.
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      11-08-2008, 10:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
BTW, how quick do you think a E92 with 464 hp M3 would lap the N'Ring? How about a "CSL equivalently tuned" 464 hp E92 M3? Just a random question for some thought...
I wonder how fast a unicorn could do it?
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      11-08-2008, 02:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I never wrote a figure about how under powered the GTR was until the dealer told me they were all under rated by about 10% and to be honest the evidence from dynos show this to be the case, anything from 520~550hp has been seen, meaning poor quality control on the early examples.
Do you really believe that poor quality control (especially on car like this) is the factor that accounts for a variation of 70 hp? I would say the evidence points to a total range of power being that large, say about 480-550. There is absolutely no way this variation comes from QC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would love to know that. The rubber can't improve because the M3 was already tested on r-compound, so all of the improvement have to come from the chassis, weight savings and the power. Please tell me your findings.
I could come up with a very good estimate. So could you. That wasn't really the point. The point was that 414+50=464 = a HUGE deal.

Last edited by swamp2; 11-08-2008 at 03:08 PM.
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      11-08-2008, 03:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would love to know that. The rubber can't improve because the M3 was already tested on r-compound, so all of the improvement have to come from the chassis, weight savings and the power. Please tell me your findings.
First the E92 M3 that obtained the 8:05 was not really on r-comps. It was on MPSC+ which is probably closer to a MPS2 than a real r-comp such as the MPSC. You just can't have the wet grip the Cup+ has with a true r-comp.

I decided to give it a whirl at an estimate:
  • E92 M3 with no changes other than 464 hp, Sportauto time: 7:55-8:00
  • E92 M3 "CSL style" (dropping 300 lb, 464 hp, MPSC, chassis/suspension tweaks), Sportauto time: 7:30-7:35
  • E92 M3 "CSL style", factory ace driver, excellent track conditions: 7:25-7:30

If you couldn't guess this is done mostly via regression modeling.
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      11-08-2008, 06:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I still believe that Nissan wouldn't be that stupid to fake their thing with a car so far off stock. You have to remember that more than one manufacturer will be testing during their sessions and word would have gotten out long before now if it had have been this blatant a lie.
Nissan rented out the ring during their final testing, so no other cars or manufacturers on the ring.

Speaking of Autocar............



In 1997 Autocar sent two of its best drivers to test out a production Nissan GTR to try to match the sub 8 minute record. Two of their best drivers included two-times Le Mans winner Robert Nearn, and Steve Sutcliffe. Their best time was 8:28.1.

"Nissan GTR's, the Nurburgring and uspiciously rapid lap times go way back, the first eyebrows having been raised when the R33 GTR somehow broke eight minutes in standard trim in the mid 1990's.

We know now, of course, that the car in question was fitted with a set of tyres that could have stuck it to the side of the Eiffel Tower when it set its lap time, and im reasonably certain they've been at it again with the latest GTR's record breaking 7min 29sec lap."

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      11-08-2008, 07:01 PM   #20
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Will see if we can cast some light on this lap time argument. Weather permitting we should know the answer in the next few days..

We already know how fast the GT-R is from lapping several around Silverstone, but the 'ring is a very different challenge.
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      11-08-2008, 11:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
Will see if we can cast some light on this lap time argument. Weather permitting we should know the answer in the next few days..

We already know how fast the GT-R is from lapping several around Silverstone, but the 'ring is a very different challenge.
In Drivers-Republic? When you say in a few days, when and where will the results be published? Thanks.
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      11-09-2008, 01:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
Will see if we can cast some light on this lap time argument. Weather permitting we should know the answer in the next few days..

We already know how fast the GT-R is from lapping several around Silverstone, but the 'ring is a very different challenge.
How much of a factor is the pavement temperature on lap time. We know lower temperatures have higher air density and are good for a bit more powere but I'd expect traction could suffer quite a bit as well.
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