track questions...

[AWM3ME2]

Originally Posted by knolow

Jay, you and I are right there. If I can find a wide body e46 I'll make the switch and have it as only a track car.

LMAO, so true.

Track season coming to an end, I'm sure there will be guys selling to get into something newer.

[dmw16]

In my E46 I jumped the gun and bought a Stoptech ST40 kit for the front of the car. I got a good deal and blah blah blah. I ended up selling it because 1) everyone says that pads, fluid, and lines are all you really need, 2) I got a great offer for it, and 3) I bought 17" track wheels and they were super close and depending on wheel-weight placement didn't clear.

I ended up getting the Performance Friction CSL kit (since I have a ZCP car) and I will report back.

I will say to skip trying to find a street/track pad and just swap pads. If you daily drive (or even every few days) your M3 don't try to leave street pads on there. You will hate life. My E46 sounds like a dump truck.

I'd suggest the PFC pads because they seem to be great and so long as you don't run another brand they aren't supposed to need bedding in when you switch between pads. Or so I've read.

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

It's even the right order. We just need to add switching to r-comps and, subsequently, needing to buy a BBK to compensate somewhere after installing the camber plates.

...or do what I did and get camber plates, R-comps, and BBK all at the same time...

...whew, talk about being re-born! .

[dmw16]

I should also add that I bought camber plates straight away too. They aren't super expensive and are pretty easy to install. Figure a good alignment will set you back $200-$300 so why not just throw the plates and there and get the alignment done once. They also will save your tires which is a big savings right there.

[zuschnell]

You guys are awesome!

I'm laughing reading all these posts as I am seeing how addictive this is and how much of a slippery slope it is. I know for sure that tracking this car isn't just a phase for me. I'm in it for the long haul which really just leaves me with figuring out how much money I want to spend and when exactly to do it. Luckily, we have three cars and I don't have to drive the m3 all the time, so if I want to start modifying it without worrying about it being my primary daily driver, I can. I'm already noticing my pilot super sports are wearing on the edges way more than the middle. You guys have given me too much to think about. I guess it is lucky that I can really only track the car for about 6 months out of the year here in Chicago, otherwise, I think I would go though a lot more money in tires, brake pads, etc. Right now, my wife and I are in the same beginner run groups, and at the scca events we have been going to, there are two beginner run groups so we don't have the luxury of having one session between runs for the car to cool down.

Either way, lots of great info from all of you. Now I just really have to figure out how much my wallet can handle and how frequently I can afford to go to the track. So far, I have only gone to scca events, but I'm wondering if we should start going to hpde instead...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by zuschnell

You guys are awesome!

I'm laughing reading all these posts as I am seeing how addictive this is and how much of a slippery slope it is. I know for sure that tracking this car isn't just a phase for me. I'm in it for the long haul which really just leaves me with figuring out how much money I want to spend and when exactly to do it. Luckily, we have three cars and I don't have to drive the m3 all the time, so if I want to start modifying it without worrying about it being my primary daily driver, I can. I'm already noticing my pilot super sports are wearing on the edges way more than the middle. You guys have given me too much to think about. I guess it is lucky that I can really only track the car for about 6 months out of the year here in Chicago, otherwise, I think I would go though a lot more money in tires, brake pads, etc. Right now, my wife and I are in the same beginner run groups, and at the scca events we have been going to, there are two beginner run groups so we don't have the luxury of having one session between runs for the car to cool down.

Either way, lots of great info from all of you. Now I just really have to figure out how much my wallet can handle and how frequently I can afford to go to the track. So far, I have only gone to scca events, but I'm wondering if we should start going to hpde instead...

I have been tracking my E92 for 5 seasons now at the rate of 15-18 days per season. I wanted to keep the car as stock as possible to avoid going into the expensive modding spiral (don't ask why ). I mostly went for modifications that improve the longevity and limited it to the following list:

Track brake pads
Camber plates
Dedicated wheels and tires (square setup to allow rotation)

They are listed in order of importance for me. All the rest of the car is stock. I decided to rather focus on upgrading the part of the car that needs the most improving, the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I mostly went for modifications that improve the longevity and limited it to the following list:

Track brake pads
Camber plates
Dedicated wheels and tires (square setup to allow rotation)

They are listed in order of importance for me. All the rest of the car is stock. I decided to rather focus on upgrading the part of the car that needs the most improving, the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

Great advice here. I went camber plates before track pads since I noticed the tire wear problem, then I got a BBK and track pads at the same time, though I'd been running StopTech Street Performance pads since before I got the camber plates. And fluid came before all of that. Dedicated wheels and tires would be the next (and very likely final) mod on my list, and then yes I too will be directing the rest of my investments to the driver mod. I'm just not sure I want to deal with the hassle of swapping/transporting/storing wheels and tires yet, so I'm also considering the intermediate route of getting something like Yoko AD08 Rs as my full-time tire when replacement time comes. But as I mentioned earlier OP, even though it's less fun and a lot more expensive, I'd consider getting a BBK before dedicated wheels and tires, especially if you'll be going for particularly sticky tires.

My self-imposed mod restriction is that I won't to do things that will compromise daily livability (except MAYBE more track-oriented tires) and aren't reversible. Even though it sounds like you wouldn't have the DD concern, that might be a good rule to abide by anyway if only to limit the amount you spend on mods. For me, that means suspension mods other than camber plates are off the table (most of them eliminate EDC anyway, and I like EDC), as are extreme camber mods that require moving strut towers and serious body modifications. Good luck!

[klammer]

Another potential Midwest addict? I've been to all the tracks you've mentioned as well as a few others and can tell you that brakes aren't that big of a deal outside of Road America and Autobahn full, which could eat brakes a little too. I have been running the last 4 years in my M3 and have fallen victim to the mod bug pretty hard. Won't reiterate what's already been said, all good advice, just take your time, have fun, and look for groups outside of scca. Here in the Midwest have Lapsincorporated, MVP Tracktime, NWSC, 3 balls racing,Hooked on Driving, and the usual make specific groups (CCA, PCA, Audi club, etc.) I try and run with as many groups as I can as each has a slightly different ideas, rules, and people and as they say...variety is the spice of life. Welcome to the party

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Great advice here. I went camber plates before track pads since I noticed the tire wear problem, then I got a BBK and track pads at the same time, though I'd been running StopTech Street Performance pads since before I got the camber plates. And fluid came before all of that. Dedicated wheels and tires would be the next (and very likely final) mod on my list, and then yes I too will be directing the rest of my investments to the driver mod. I'm just not sure I want to deal with the hassle of swapping/transporting/storing wheels and tires yet, so I'm also considering the intermediate route of getting something like Yoko AD08 Rs as my full-time tire when replacement time comes. But as I mentioned earlier OP, even though it's less fun and a lot more expensive, I'd consider getting a BBK before dedicated wheels and tires, especially if you'll be going for particularly sticky tires.

My self-imposed mod restriction is that I won't to do things that will compromise daily livability (except MAYBE more track-oriented tires) and aren't reversible. Even though it sounds like you wouldn't have the DD concern, that might be a good rule to abide by anyway if only to limit the amount you spend on mods. For me, that means suspension mods other than camber plates are off the table (most of them eliminate EDC anyway, and I like EDC), as are extreme camber mods that require moving strut towers and serious body modifications. Good luck!

IMO, a BBK is an overkill on most tracks. Except for PF08 pads, I run everything else stock OE (discs, lines, fluid) and have yet to encounter a brake issue. BTW, I run NT01, not the stickiest R-comp out there, but still grippier than a street tire. Part of leanring to drive on a track consists of managing brakes. Avoiding overbraking when entering a turn (keeping momentum) and not braking at the absolute limit at every occasion (using 90% brake force instread of 100% will not have a huge impact on lap times, but has a huge impact on the stress on the brake system) are good starting points.

As for dedicated track wheels, if one does 4-6 days per season, a dual use tire can do the trick. However, above that, managing tire wear becomes much more complex and this is where the dedicated track wheels come in very handy.

[jphughan]

^ Fair enough. There are some pretty brake-intensive tracks down here in Texas -- particularly Circuit of the Americas. Plus the temperatures out here can get up to 108 F in the summer, which makes for very hot pavement and therefore very hot wheels and tires and probably explains why so many higher run group cars in the M3's weight class out here have BBKs. The easy pad swap flexibility also appealed to me, though that certainly didn't justify the cost of a BBK on its own.

I'm running about 8 days per year so I'm right on the edge of getting a set of wheels and tires. I just don't have a ton of storage and like I said, not sure I'm willing to deal with the hassle of swapping wheels and such even if it would ultimately save me some cash. Plus then the sky becomes the limit on the types of tires I can run, and NT01s ain't cheap, to say nothing of slicks. That would make an expensive addiction even more expensive.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by jphughan

^ Fair enough. There are some pretty brake-intensive tracks down here in Texas -- particularly Circuit of the Americas. Plus the temperatures out here can get up to 108 F in the summer, which makes for very hot pavement and therefore very hot wheels and tires and probably explains why so many higher run group cars in the M3's weight class out here have BBKs. The easy pad swap flexibility also appealed to me, though that certainly didn't justify the cost of a BBK on its own.

I'm running about 8 days per year so I'm right on the edge of getting a set of wheels and tires. I just don't have a ton of storage and like I said, not sure I'm willing to deal with the hassle of swapping wheels and such even if it would ultimately save me some cash. Plus then the sky becomes the limit on the types of tires I can run, and NT01s ain't cheap, to say nothing of slicks. That would make an expensive addiction even more expensive.

The difference of 20F in ambient/pavement temps isn't enough to make a big difference in brake fade IMO. The brake temps are so high relative to air temps that you aren't going to really see that as a major impact. Not the same for oil and coolant temps.

NT01's are actually pretty cheap compared to Super Sports or other good summer tire. And then there are race car take-off's if you want cheap slicks (think they are about $150-$200 a piece from JPJP). But you aren't there yet.

If you opt to run street tires I'd strongly suggest camber plates. They are about $350 but will help save your very expensive high performance street tires.

[surlynkid]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Plus then the sky becomes the limit on the types of tires I can run, and NT01s ain't cheap, to say nothing of slicks. That would make an expensive addiction even more expensive.

you will not be able to run NT01's with Drivers Edge until you make yellow. If your wife is also tracking the same car, she also has to make yellow unless you are swapping tires between sessions which would be insane. TWS PDS has no specific rule about tires. You will likely run with both groups down here, so something above 120 treadwear is required until you hit yellow.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by dmw16

NT01's are actually pretty cheap compared to Super Sports or other good summer tire. And then there are race car take-off's if you want cheap slicks (think they are about $150-$200 a piece from JPJP). But you aren't there yet.

If you opt to run street tires I'd strongly suggest camber plates. They are about $350 but will help save your very expensive high performance street tires.

I already have camber plates, learned that lesson by cording a pair of PSS front tires, got them before the BBK and race pads. I know the NT01s are comparably priced to PSSes on a per-tire basis, but not so much on a per-mile basis looking at their expected lifespan, probably even per track mile once camber plates are in the mix to help with PSS life. I'm sure NT01s are worth it for their performance, but to start I expect I'll switch to running AD08 R's full-time when my current PSSes are done just to check them out (if I don't like them, it won't be long before I need new ones!), then if I get dedicated wheels I'll start with the BFG Rivals and then MAYBE go with NT01s. I'll just have to decide whether I want to put my track funds toward stickier tires or more track time. I don't anticipate running slicks probably ever, but definitely not in the next few years.

Originally Posted by surlynkid

you will not be able to run NT01's with Drivers Edge until you make yellow. If your wife is also tracking the same car, she also has to make yellow unless you are swapping tires between sessions which would be insane. TWS PDS has no specific rule about tires. You will likely run with both groups down here, so something above 120 treadwear is required until you hit yellow.

I just made Yellow, as it happens! And the wife doesn't currently track, and even if she did she would be in her Mini Cooper S since she can't drive stick.

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have been tracking my E92 for 5 seasons now at the rate of 15-18 days per season. I wanted to keep the car as stock as possible to avoid going into the expensive modding spiral (don't ask why ). I mostly went for modifications that improve the longevity and limited it to the following list:

Track brake pads
Camber plates
Dedicated wheels and tires (square setup to allow rotation)

They are listed in order of importance for me. All the rest of the car is stock. I decided to rather focus on upgrading the part of the car that needs the most improving, the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

that's exactly what I did and am doing!!

although my dedicated wheels are also stock street tires.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I know the NT01s are comparably priced to PSSes on a per-tire basis, but not so much on a per-mile basis looking at their expected lifespan, probably even per track mile once camber plates are in the mix to help with PSS life. I'm sure NT01s are worth it for their performance, but to start I expect I'll switch to running AD08 R's full-time when my current PSSes are done just to check them out (if I don't like them, it won't be long before I need new ones!), then if I get dedicated wheels I'll start with the BFG Rivals and then MAYBE go with NT01s. I'll just have to decide whether I want to put my track funds toward stickier tires or more track time. I don't anticipate running slicks probably ever, but definitely not in the next few years.

I guess it depends how hard you push. I destroy a set of PSS in 2-4 dry track days. They simply cannot handle the heat, they melt and chunk away. Especially the outter thread block that are made of a softer rubber compound. The NT01 last 8-12 track days, they are designed to handle the heat. Further, once half worn, you can flip them on the rim to get even more life, which you cannot do with the PSS. So from my perspective, the cost per track mile is much better with the NT01. I also keep my PSS for wet tracks as they are fabulous in the rain.

IMO, AD08 and NT05 are a better compromise as street/track tires. But are not great in the wet.

If you want to go to slicks, you will most likely need to modify your suspension, and there starts the the modding spiral

[jphughan]

^ I corded my front PSSes after 6 track days, though I was in Blue at the time which might have been why they lasted as long as they did. I'm thinking the AD08s will be a better fit for what I'm doing just as you say; I'll just have to see whether the increased noise and decreased comfort on the road is acceptable. If not, I'll go back to PSSes on the road and I guess that will be my incentive to get dedicated track wheels. I'm not too worried about wet performance; I'd take it very slow on a wet track since I've only been in the wet for 1 weekend (MSR Cresson 3.1 back when I was in Green), and on the road I'll just be mindful of that. If I had dedicated wheels I'd switch back to my road PSSes on a wet event if I decide to bring my second set with me.

Good to know NT01s last 8-12 track days though, that's more than I'd have thought and should get me through a year based on the number of track days I'm doing at the moment. Thanks!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

you will not be able to run NT01's with Drivers Edge until you make yellow. If your wife is also tracking the same car, she also has to make yellow unless you are swapping tires between sessions which would be insane. TWS PDS has no specific rule about tires. You will likely run with both groups down here, so something above 120 treadwear is required until you hit yellow.

I would even venture to say most in yellow shouldn't be on NT01s. The longer you are on street tires the better.

[bigjae1976]

A BBK makes a key system of your car more reliable and less maintenance intensive. Over the very long run its cheaper because pads and rotors last much longer.

The tracks in TX are hard on brakes, vaporized a set of PF01s in 4 days on the OE brakes. IMO, the OE brakes can survive track days...barely. But over time as I've improved, I now consider a BBK more of a handling upgrade vs a reliability improvement.

If tracking this car is a long term thing, it's better to get the BBK now vs waiting. Bear in mind that resale on used BBKs is usually pretty bad as it should be. IMO a BBK is worth about 50% of retail once the pads touch the rotors. Keep that in mind if you don't plan on keeping the car.

[mrh335]

OP, you and I are thinking through the same logic. If I remember right, you asked me about upgrades last weekend at Autobahn. I was in the black M3 waiting to get on the track when we spoke.

After reading these posts, I am going to look into pads and fluid since it is all bone stock right now.

Did you have any bad brake feel after the track day like brake squeal, vibration when braking, or pinging brakes after mild local driving? Just curious since we ran the same day, same car, if you experienced this like I have.

[M3 Pilot]

Originally Posted by zuschnell

I have tracked my car 3 times now and my wife has tracked it 2 times. We have run back to back 15-20 min sessions in the car and I feel like it gets a little sloppy in the braking department, especially by the third session.

I am definitely going to keep tracking as now I got the bug. Surprisingly, my wife is too. She is loving it and I love that we can make a day of it at the track together.

So my question is, do you guys think I should do anything to modify the car, or wait till we are better drivers? I am a total noobie at the track and don't really know that much about racing or what goes into keeping my car up. My car is totally stock right now. I was considering getting a big brake kit because I'm thinking it is the thing that would probably keep us being able to run back to back sessions without too many problems. What do you guys think? What else should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!

If the intention is to track the car regularly with thoughts of becoming serious by doing weight reduction and install half rollcage, you might as well go BBK now.

If you don't intend to do the above, Pads, Steel braided lines, good fluid and rotors will do.

BBK will come in handy if your traction value increase. IE. Full slick tires or equivalent or you intend to run extended session IE. 1 hour non stop driving.

Although steel braided lines don't necessarily reduce braking distance, I do like the concise brake pedal feel with minimum pedal travel as compared to OEM lines where I have to pedal hunt a little for threshold braking.

Having BBK does not necessarily mean your braking distance will reduce. You'll need to know how to use them, run them in, etc.

When I first had them, I used to get plenty of uneven pad deposits on the rotors because I didn't know how to run them in properly. This resulted in violent vibrations every time I braked. I had to take my wheels off, use 1000grit sandpaper mixed with water and sand down my rotors.

When you spend enough track days talking to participants, go to a competent workshop, you'll "hopefully" pick up right info and discard the myths.

[WarrantyTracker]

I will buck the trend here. As a couple of beginners, driving north of the Mason-Dixon, I think you will be fine for at least one season with a set of StopTech Street Performance pads, and Motul RBF 600 brake fluid changed in at the beginning of the season.

If this works, you can put the pads and the fluid in at the beginning of your season and just leave it alone, with no need to swap track pads in and out. This is especially important if you don't have a floor jack and brake bleeder yet; you can get a mechanic to do it.

If you try it and you're still getting fade, you haven't lost anything. Just put the StopTechs on the shelf for the day when your BMW street pads wear out, and use them as street pads.

Swapping pads in and out isn't a bad job, but it still takes an hour (once you've learned how - the first time will take longer) and typically makes me break a sweat, so there are advantages to skipping it if you can.

StopTech pads and the Motul are available at good prices on Amazon.com if you don't have a local race shop or mechanic to fix you up. If you are going DIY, there are threads in the wheel&tire forum about floor jacks to buy. I personally use the Bavarian Auto brake bleeder. The DIY forum has decent threads on how to do the pads and fluid. Just be damn careful you don't spill fluid because the res is right above the vac pump, and you can kill the vac pump that way.

[jphughan]

^ Totally agree. I'd definitely recommend that even casual track people stop using the OEM pads though. Not only do they fade, they left me with seriously bad steering wheel vibration under braking afterward that didn't go away even after several weeks, presumably due to uneven pad deposits. The dealer replaced my pads and rotors as a result, at which point I installed the Street Performance pads. Those pads will still fade on track once you get to be a better driver, but they're far less likely to leave you with steering wheel vibration after the event as long as you give them a proper cooldown lap, and they're almost exactly like OEM on the road with the exception of SLIGHTLY less cold bite. I've been running them on road and track for the last year or so, though at my next event I'll be using race pads for the first time.

And yes, I had the vacuum pump failure due to spilled brake fluid too. Definitely no fun, and rather bone-headed placement design on BMW's part there.