Whos running Mobil 1 0w-40?

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Need to be careful not to put too much faith in blackstone analysis. Like a dynamometer it's only useful for comparison and trending rather than telling you definitively that "yes there's a problem" or "no everything's fine"

Lower lead is great but it's just one metric. Important one sure but plenty of motors with good looking samples have gone boom anyway

I check Blackstone every 5,000 miles every time I change the oil... so I can start developing trends to follow... It's no guarantee, but it's the only thing we have to rely on rather than an engine tear down every 5,000 miles... if you have better ideas to keep track of the engine let us know

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Also remember, when you call/ contact the oil companies, you are just speaking with someone in marketing... they have a computer in front of them where they enter the year, brand, and model of car and it shows what oils they have that work...

So you can look at BMW's recommendations and interpret it any way you want... or you can look at the hard evidence from the oil analysis and make your best informed decision based on that

Again I don't have a problem with Mobil 1, I've used it in the past and it is approved for the Nissan GT-R which is in itself quite an achievement.
It is not however an approved oil for the S65 M3 - and using it in warranty might conceivably be a problem.
There are dozens of LL-01 compliant oils, in grades: 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40 and 5w-40 even my local motor spares supermarket has its own cheap brand synthetic LL-01 oil. I'm guessing you would be less keen on most of those.

Re: Blackstone reports - lead levels are only an indicator up to 2011 cars when the lead faced bearing were no longer allowed to be used under EU end of life regulations.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Again I don't have a problem with Mobil 1, I've used it in the past and it is approved for the Nissan GT-R which is in itself quite an achievement.
It is not however an approved oil for the S65 M3 - and using it in warranty might conceivably be a problem.
There are dozens of LL-01 compliant oils, in grades: 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40 and 5w-40 even my local motor spares supermarket has its own cheap brand synthetic LL-01 oil. I'm guessing you would be less keen on most of those.

Re: Blackstone reports - lead levels are only an indicator up to 2011 cars when the lead faced bearing were no longer allowed to be used under EU end of life regulations.

My car is a 2008... so still has the same old lead lined bearings

As far as warranty... that's a hard one decision... stick with TWS 10w60 and keep the warranty at the risk of increasing bearing wear which may or may not be an issue when the car is out of warranty... or use the lighter weight oil which so far shows less wear... knowing that interpreting BMW's oil recommendations is still questionable in terms of keeping warranty depending on how the warranty officer decides to interpret it.

I don't have BMW's warranty, but I have a Carmax Warranty that is supposed to be good for another 4 years and 60,000 miles (totalling 120,000 miles)... I guess one thing I can do is contact Carmax's warranty department with the BMW oil recommendation letter and see what they want me to use to maintain my warranty. The nice thing about my warranty is that I don't have to go to the BMW stealership for warranty work... I can go to any ASE certified technician. The bad thing is that all the BMW tuners out here in Socal aren't ASE certified (EAS, MRF, AutoTalent, etc)... although they know more about the ins and outs of these cars since that is all they work on.

[W///]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Having read the whole thread, is it safe to conclude the following?

• 10W-60= Best used in the summer
• 0w-40= Best used in the winter

All the above outside of warranty of course.

I used it year round, even during hot/humid SC summers. Def a no-brainer during the winter IMO.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Why are you still harping on this You seem to be the only one taking issue to the BMW bulletin and insisting everyone is wrong and you are right. If you truly believe TWS is the only oil your M should have then so be it. But dont tell others they are wrong for running "any old synthetic LL-01" when BMW put outs a bulletin clearly saying that it is ok to do so.

Actually, the wording is, "BMW Long-life LL-01 synthetic oils", not "Any LL-01 oil", which I take to mean that you can choose from either the LL-01 oils that BMW has directly rebranded or the other oils they specifically list on that page, but not "any old synthetic LL-01" as you're suggesting. The LL-01 is a rating deals SOLELY with longevity (and thus indicates that a given oil stands a chance of surviving BMW's 15K mile drain interval) and says absolutely NOTHING about how well it will protect the engine. No automaker anywhere says, "You can run any oil you want as long as it has a longevity rating", which is what your interpretation would indicate. They ALWAYS have a range of viscosities or grades that they recommend/approve. Even if the interpretation you're suggesting makes sense based purely on wording (which I don't think it does), it doesn't pass the common sense test.


Now I am NOT saying that just because M1 0W-40 isn't specifically approved for M engines it will automatically grenade an M car's engine -- but I believe it DOES mean that BMW doesn't approve it, and thus owners who run it under warranty could have a problem if they have a claim in the warranty period.

Originally Posted by Craigy

My oil isn't due for another 12k but I'll prob switch to the Mobil for the next change.

Yeah, I wouldn't wait for 12K unless you don't plan to keep the car long. I know BMW recommends 15K, but even they dropped that to 10K a few months back on all vehicles produced after a certain date, without any actual change to the cars themselves. You can kind of read between the lines there....

[gatorfast]

I was just trying to make a point, don't take things so literally.

Also, as far as I know LL-01 is a BMW only certification thus the term LL-01 automatically refers to BMW LL-01 as they are one in the same. Google search for LL-01 oil only turns up BMW related items.

[SenorFunkyPants]

If you go here you will find a list of LL-01 approved oils from the 2007 BMW Tis
http://mmm-five.net/Other/LL01.pdf
Or attached below.
It lists nearly 100 oils that are LL-01 compliant.
The BMW oil supplement is ambiguous, but for all LL-01 oils to be approved for the S65 M3 the following would have to be true:

1/ BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil is the only recommended oil for all BMWs except for M engines where any LL-01 oil will do.

2/ BMW spent a small fortune R&Ding a massive range of LL-01 oils to check compatibility with M engines even though engine production was finished.

3/ BMW having had a favorably financial deal with Castrol (to provide oil for OEM factory first fills, exclusive recommendation in literature and use of "Exclusive approval for M engines" on their retail packaging) gave that financial benefit away and now every manufacturer of LL-01 oil can legitimately print "approved for use in BMW M engines" on their retail packaging.

On the balance of probabilities I would say not.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

My car is a 2008... so still has the same old lead lined bearings

As far as warranty... that's a hard one decision... stick with TWS 10w60 and keep the warranty at the risk of increasing bearing wear which may or may not be an issue when the car is out of warranty... or use the lighter weight oil which so far shows less wear... knowing that interpreting BMW's oil recommendations is still questionable in terms of keeping warranty depending on how the warranty officer decides to interpret it.

I don't have BMW's warranty, but I have a Carmax Warranty that is supposed to be good for another 4 years and 60,000 miles (totalling 120,000 miles)... I guess one thing I can do is contact Carmax's warranty department with the BMW oil recommendation letter and see what they want me to use to maintain my warranty. The nice thing about my warranty is that I don't have to go to the BMW stealership for warranty work... I can go to any ASE certified technician. The bad thing is that all the BMW tuners out here in Socal aren't ASE certified (EAS, MRF, AutoTalent, etc)... although they know more about the ins and outs of these cars since that is all they work on.

My car also has the lead faced bearings which IMO is probably the better bearing than the later 2011 revision.
I'm guessing that your warranty has plenty of fine print to go through and its pretty certain to include an insistence that you stick to the manufacturers service schedule. Myself I would be reluctant to contact Carmax with a question on using a different oil in case they note it on your file and use it against you if in the future your engine went tits up.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you go here you will find a list of LL-01 approved oils from the 2007 BMW Tis
http://mmm-five.net/Other/LL01.pdf
It lists nearly 100 oils that are LL-01 compliant.
Its true that the BMW supplement is ambiguous, but for all LL-01 oils to be approved for the S65 M3 the following would have to be true:

1/ BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil is the only recommended oil for all BMWs except for M engines where any LL-01 oil will do.

2/ BMW spent a small fortune R&Ding a massive range of LL-01 oils to check compatibility with M engines even though engine production was finished.

3/ BMW having had a favorably financial deal with Castrol (to provide oil for OEM factory first fills, exclusive recommendation in literature and use of "Exclusive approval for M engines" on their retail packaging) gave that financial benefit away and now every manufacturer of LL-01 oil can legitimately print "approved for use in BMW M engines" on their retail packaging.

On the balance of probabilities I would say not.

1) Yes, BMW 5W-30 is not recommended for BMW M engines.

2) Receiving LL-01 certification is to the advantage of the oil maker not BMW. Generally oil makers will front the money and testing required to have their oil certified for various auto makers. In essence, BMW states the requirements for their engines and quantifies those requirements under the umbrella of LL-01, LL-98 or LL-04. The onus falls to the oil manufacturers to meet those requirements which may or may not require any testing or R&D. BMW LL-01 requirements are not public and certification may be a simple matter of comparing oil attributes to BMW oil criteria. That being said, I found a random forum post where someone tried to correlate LL-01 requirements based on the typical LL-01 data sheet.
http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a...5/m/7351064032

3) You should re-word it to say that Castrol has a favorable financial deal with BMW. Such a good deal that all BMW dealerships are under contract with Castrol to use their oil. This is not uncommon. Many oil manufactures take advantage of their contracts/agreements with auto makers and will advertise those benefits as much as possible. Prior to my current E92 M3, I was a Porsche owner. Under the engine lid of all 997 Porsches you would find this:



The wording of the sticker, "Porsche Recommends" and "Exclusively" leads many a Porsche owner to believe that Porsche only recommends Mobil1 oil. This is in fact false since Porsche has their own oil certification (A40 and C30-Diesel). Porsche obviously has a contract with Mobil1, the oil is exclusively used in Porsche dealerships and part of the contract probably includes the engine lid sticker and wording. However, Porsche, I think, does a better job of advertising other recommended oils if your willing to do your research. If you really want to see some good oil debates head over to a Porsche forum. Even with the Porsche published recommended oil list, some owners refuse to acknowledge any other oil as approved due to the engine lid sticker and wording....

http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_3/P...oved_Oils.html

I used to have a better site but its been a while since I have dealt with Porsche stuff.

In the end, there is obviously nothing wrong with continuing to using Castrol 10W-60. I have my doubts that switching from Castrol to Mobil1 is really doing anything to prevent the small amount of failures the E9X M3 community has had. For me, M1 0W-40 is a proven high performance oil that has been successful on and off the track in many high performance engines. M1 0W-40 also has the added benefit of being much more affordable due to its wide proliferation.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by JEllis

In the end, there is obviously nothing wrong with continuing to using Castrol 10W-60. I have my doubts that switching from Castrol to Mobil1 is really doing anything to prevent the small amount of failures the E9X M3 community has had. For me, M1 0W-40 is a proven high performance oil that has been successful on and off the track in many high performance engines. M1 0W-40 also has the added benefit of being much more affordable due to its wide proliferation.

If I was out of warranty I would tend to choose an oil that fitted my usage and climate.
Cold climate, stock car and normal driving I would probably go with something like Mobil 1 0w-40.
In any hot climate I would stick with the Castrol 10W-60.
In between is where its a judgement call.

Interestingly LL-01 is an oil standard specifically for the USA market.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Having read the whole thread, is it safe to conclude the following?

• 10W-60= Best used in the summer
• 0w-40= Best used in the winter

All the above outside of warranty of course.

This is not an air-cooled car and doesn't need thicker oil in the summer. Use the 0w40 year-round.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If I was out of warranty I would tend to choose an oil that fitted my usage and climate.
Cold climate, stock car and normal driving I would probably go with something like Mobil 1 0w-40.
In any hot climate I would stick with the Castrol 10W-60.
In between is where its a judgement call.

Interestingly LL-01 is an oil standard specifically for the USA market.

As I've stated before, it's not an air-cooled car so you don't need to run thicker oil when the ambient temperature goes up.

LL-01 is for the US market because we have different gasoline. LL-04 is the European equivalent. Google around for low/mid-SAPS if you want to understand why.

[checkmate]

Originally Posted by dparm

This is not an air-cooled car and doesn't need thicker oil in the summer. Use the 0w40 year-round.

Do we agree that it's best to use the 0W-40 outside of warranty?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by dparm

As I've stated before, it's not an air-cooled car so you don't need to run thicker oil when the ambient temperature goes up.

Its about wanting a "thinner" viscosity oil when cold.
Most damage occurs when the oil is cold...10W-60 is fine once the engine is hot.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Its about wanting a "thinner" viscosity oil when cold.
Most damage occurs when the oil is cold...10W-60 is fine once the engine is hot.

So then 10-60 is not fine. We dont have oil heaters in the car to keep it in the "fine when warm stage"

I know it is different for you on that side of the pond and I feel your slight frustration but here the dealers are going along with what the SB says.
They are telling customers they can install the 10-60 or the 5-30 (virtually the same as German Castrol 0-30). I am good friends with the General Manager, shop and service manager. They are using the 5-30 in a bunch of cars they told me. More people watch the boards and or know more info than what we know. There are only a couple people on this board from the Charlotte area yet they get asked over and over about it.
So, although I agree with you that the bulletin can be interpreted a couple ways why would they issue a new bulletin if it had in fact not changed. The bulletins are issued because of a change. For the dealer to have no problem pouring in the 5-30, I would say that for us in the USA that is pretty much all the interpretation we need.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Its about wanting a "thinner" viscosity oil when cold.
Most damage occurs when the oil is cold...10W-60 is fine once the engine is hot.

Having a lighter oil when it's warm is not a bad thing either. You want oil to be thin as possible, but as thick as necessary.

[W///]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If I was out of warranty I would tend to choose an oil that fitted my usage and climate.
Cold climate, stock car and normal driving I would probably go with something like Mobil 1 0w-40.
In any hot climate I would stick with the Castrol 10W-60.
In between is where its a judgement call.

Interestingly LL-01 is an oil standard specifically for the USA market.

As Kawasaki said, even in hot ambient temperature, let's say 30C, that's still considered cold for oil.

If your oil regularly sees 250F all the time (aka track), then maybe it's better to stay with TWS. But my car doesn't see anywhere near that kind of heat (and I'm in a hot climate), thus why I'm comfortable with M1, which disperses heat way better than 10W60 ever did too. Yet another + for M1.

[Craigy]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Yeah, I wouldn't wait for 12K unless you don't plan to keep the car long. I know BMW recommends 15K, but even they dropped that to 10K a few months back on all vehicles produced after a certain date, without any actual change to the cars themselves. You can kind of read between the lines there....

Yeah thanks W/// also said this. I know, I won't be waiting until the full 12k (of 15k) but it's a long way's off. I don't think I'll do the 5k changes like some folks around here but before 10k for sure.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

So then 10-60 is not fine. We dont have oil heaters in the car to keep it in the "fine when warm stage"

There is "no one size fits all" oil - what works perfectly in Texas in the summer is never going to be equally perfect in Canada in the winter.
BMW had to make a compromise based on their pre-production R&D and the 10W-60 is what they went with.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

So, although I agree with you that the bulletin can be interpreted a couple ways why would they issue a new bulletin if it had in fact not changed. The bulletins are issued because of a change. For the dealer to have no problem pouring in the 5-30, I would say that for us in the USA that is pretty much all the interpretation we need.

The interpretation that *every* LL-01 compliant synthetic oil is approved for M engines is wrong. Thats the only point I'm trying make.
To be honest I don't think going from the castrol 10W-60 to the Mobil 1 0W-40 would make the slightest different to the vast majority of engines, but thats me - in the end we are all grown ups and can choose for ourselves.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The interpretation that *every* LL-01 compliant synthetic oil is approved for M engines is wrong. Thats the only point I'm trying make.
To be honest I don't think going from the castrol 10W-60 to the Mobil 1 0W-40 would make the slightest different to the vast majority of engines, but thats me - in the end we are all grown ups and can choose for ourselves.

I get what you are saying but BMW has no legal right to exclude certain oils out of the LL01 approval. BMW has nothing to do with what is approved and what is not.
If a oil says "Meets or exceeds" then it is not technically approved. Only the manufacturer says it is equal and they could be lying.
If it says "approved" then it has been tested and proven to meet what BMW says is acceptable.
Lets take a 335 just to forget about the M for a minute. BMW has no legal right to say that The 5-30 is good for warranty and the Mobil 0-40 is not. They cannot deny warranty for this.

[Z K]

I may go mix TWS with M1 0w40 since I have a bunch of both on hand. A 50/50 mixture sounds ideal.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Z K

I may go mix TWS with M1 0w40 since I have a bunch of both on hand. A 50/50 mixture sounds ideal.

I don't recommend that. Although API-approved oils must be mixable with other API-approved oils, you might get competing additive packages. Some additives can actually counteract others and decrease the oil's overall performance before you even put it into service!

The only time I advocate mixing oils is when it's from the same line/manufacturer, i.e. Red Line 5w40 with Red Line 0w30, since they will have nearly identical chemistries. In fact, Red Line actually advocates mixing their oils together to make your own custom weight.