BMW NA Approves New S65 Engine Replacement Due to Bad Rod Bearings

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by kiquos

@ItsGary: no break-in period, I specifically asked and got an answer via email from Lang Racing.

I did drive the car for a like an hour before hand, no issues, higher revs too.

The problem with running the OEM bearings is that if you bought the car new, and know you let it warm up, then the chances your brgs are good to go is great! But if you bought the car used, and had 2-3 previous owners, you really dont know the conditions of the brgs! Below are the original brgs, and they did not look that bad for 80k miles.

100% agree on the break in period. Nothing is touching to break in. An oil change soon after is not a terrible idea to flush out any dust, swarf or excess assembly lube from the swap but is really not required (other than to make you feel good).

100% disagree on the warm-up comment. No amount of proper care, maintenance, magic oil and/or babying will eliminate the problem if your bearings are too tight to allow for proper oil flow at high RPM. Perhaps proper care will prolong the inevitable, but the problem remains. There have been many sets of low mileage, well-cared-for bearings that come out of the S65 looking like garbage. People who RELIGIOUSLY cared for their cars have spun bearings.

Very sorry for your engine blending itself. I hope it work out with the shop.

Cheers,

[sergbaja5t]

Simple question. I have 38k on new engine that was replace in late 2018 from BMW NA. Should I start putting money back to the bearings @ 45/50K? Should wait a little longer?

[akkando]

Originally Posted by sergbaja5t

Simple question. I have 38k on new engine that was replace in late 2018 from BMW NA. Should I start putting money back to the bearings @ 45/50K? Should wait a little longer?

They could go at any time.

[Mr. BMW]

Originally Posted by sergbaja5t

Simple question. I have 38k on new engine that was replace in late 2018 from BMW NA. Should I start putting money back to the bearings @ 45/50K? Should wait a little longer?

What warranty did they give you on the new motor?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by sergbaja5t

Simple question. I have 38k on new engine that was replace in late 2018 from BMW NA. Should I start putting money back to the bearings @ 45/50K? Should wait a little longer?

Used engine put in I guess? If not and properly driven/looked after by yourself I definitely would not for another pile of miles.

[sergbaja5t]

Originally Posted by Mr. BMW

What warranty did they give you on the new motor?

2 years Unlimited mileage.

[sergbaja5t]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Used engine put in I guess? If not and properly driven/looked after by yourself I definitely would not for another pile of miles.

They put a new engine in.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by sergbaja5t

They put a new engine in.

If you drove the engine yourself from start, I would not be in a hurry. Replaced mine at 37k - bought it with 12k - shells where in ok condition (LCI). After following the replacement threads for quite some time Im starting to realize that they do hold up for a long time even with some (possibly initial) wear.

[sergbaja5t]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

If you drove the engine yourself from start, I would not be in a hurry. Replaced mine at 37k - bought it with 12k - shells where in ok condition (LCI). After following the replacement threads for quite some time Im starting to realize that they do hold up for a long time even with some (possibly initial) wear.

Yes I drove it from 0 mile. All the way from Arkansas.

[LakeSurfer]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

100% agree on the break in period. Nothing is touching to break in. An oil change soon after is not a terrible idea to flush out any dust, swarf or excess assembly lube from the swap but is really not required (other than to make you feel good).

100% disagree on the warm-up comment. No amount of proper care, maintenance, magic oil and/or babying will eliminate the problem if your bearings are too tight to allow for proper oil flow at high RPM. Perhaps proper care will prolong the inevitable, but the problem remains. There have been many sets of low mileage, well-cared-for bearings that come out of the S65 looking like garbage. People who RELIGIOUSLY cared for their cars have spun bearings.

Very sorry for your engine blending itself. I hope it work out with the shop.

Cheers,

Do the bearings require oil to operate properly regardless of clearance? Is the 60w oil, when cold, to thick to properly get into the tight clearances? And does the oil, when warm, thin out a little and therefore stand a better chance to get into those tight clearances?

If the answer is yes to those 3 questions then how can you say 100% that warning the engine up doesn't help?

There would need to be several controlled tests to prove anything. So everything else is just speculation. No one knows how many have failed and no one knows how many proactive bearing replacements would have failed had they not replaced them. We do know the clearances are tight, too tight and that's really all we know.

Soooo..... warm the car up, change the oil more often then not and replace the stock bearings for peace of mind and to perhaps avoid failure.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by LakeSurfer

Do the bearings require oil to operate properly regardless of clearance? Is the 60w oil, when cold, to thick to properly get into the tight clearances? And does the oil, when warm, thin out a little and therefore stand a better chance to get into those tight clearances?

If the answer is yes to those 3 questions then how can you say 100% that warning the engine up doesn't help?

There would need to be several controlled tests to prove anything. So everything else is just speculation. No one knows how many have failed and no one knows how many proactive bearing replacements would have failed had they not replaced them. We do know the clearances are tight, too tight and that's really all we know.

Soooo..... warm the car up, change the oil more often then not and replace the stock bearings for peace of mind and to perhaps avoid failure.

I never said warming up did not affect the outcome. I specifically said it would "prolong the inevitable." Additionally, the 10w60 oil should be similar to a 10w30. Regardless, if you subscribe to "cold oil abuse" as the cause of the S65 problems, then how do you explain the fact that Audi, Honda, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lexus, Toyota, Ford, Porsche, etc. all produce high-revving, high-output engines that do not suffer from atypical rod bearing wear and related engine failures? Are you suggesting that only BMW S65 and S85 owners abuse their engines while cold?

Please explain your logic? What problem are you alleviating by changing the stock bearings? If fully warming up the engine with only short OCIs solves all of the S65/S85 problems, then why change the bearings to begin with? And are you suggesting that you replace the stock bearings with new stock bearings?

This is a graph that is key to understanding the issue with tight tolerances:


If you do not have adequate oil flow at high RPM, you are asking for big problems. No amount of snake oil, babying, maintenance or wishful thinking will solve this problem if the bearings are too tight to allow for proper flow.

Cheers,

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

If you drove the engine yourself from start, I would not be in a hurry. Replaced mine at 37k - bought it with 12k - shells where in ok condition (LCI). After following the replacement threads for quite some time Im starting to realize that they do hold up for a long time even with some (possibly initial) wear.

All except for the poor people who spin a bearing... Those did not hold up very well at all.

This is not a care/maintenance/mileage issue. It is a probability issue.

Yes, if you do not abuse your engine, it will last longer - fine - that is a global statement.

BUT - if your won the lottery and have a very tight engine, you will have problems - regardless of mileage etc. (unless you drive it below 3500RPM at all times which you might as well have bought a Prius ).

Statistics is a bitch.

Cheers,

[Assimilator1]

That graph you posted, what do the bold lines relate to? BE bearings?

LakeSurfer
..... and no one knows how many proactive bearing replacements would have failed had they not replaced them

Although we can't get precise numbers, if you look at all the photos in the rod bearing condition thread, you'll see that by far the greater majority are in a poor state & (at least) would not have lasted a 'normal' lifetime (I think it's fair to say a normal life is 200k miles?).
I saw only 2 people post photos of bearings there with the light wear you should expect! If you want an idea of what bearings should & shouldn't look like, & failure causes check out the pdf papers by Mahle-Clevite & King (to name just 2).

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

That graph you posted, what do the bold lines relate to? BE bearings?

LakeSurfer
..... and no one knows how many proactive bearing replacements would have failed had they not replaced them

Although we can't get precise numbers, if you look at all the photos in the rod bearing condition thread, you'll see that by far the greater majority are in a poor state & (at least) would not have lasted a 'normal' lifetime (I think it's fair to say a normal life is 200k miles?).
I saw only 2 people post photos of bearings there with the light wear you should expect! If you want an idea of what bearings should & shouldn't look like, & failure causes check out the pdf papers by Mahle-Clevite & King (to name just 2).

The bold lines are BE bearings. The less bold lines were stock 702/703 bearings from their test engine.

It shows that the proper clearance bearing will allow for proper oil flow at high RPM. It also shows that the variable stroke oil pump is able to maintain pressure even at significantly increased flow.

Cheers,

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

100% agree on the break in period. Nothing is touching to break in. An oil change soon after is not a terrible idea to flush out any dust, swarf or excess assembly lube from the swap but is really not required (other than to make you feel good).

Cheers,

I believe in the break in period. Oil change soon after to get rid of all the bearing wear until up to that point. Then another oil change within 1k miles again if needed.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

I believe in the break in period. Oil change soon after to get rid of all the bearing wear until up to that point. Then another oil change within 1k miles again if needed.

There is no bearing wear. None. Zip. Zilch.

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

There is no bearing wear. None. Zip. Zilch.

Im referring to the 100k miles of bearing material that get lodged into different areas. Oil replacement that goes along with bearing change doesn’t remove all the material. It will take a few oil changes.

I know there is no wear on the new bearings during the 1st change intervals.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Im referring to the 100k miles of bearing material that get lodged into different areas. Oil replacement that goes along with bearing change doesn’t remove all the material. It will take a few oil changes.

I know there is no wear on the new bearings during the 1st change intervals.

There is also nothing that gets lodged anywhere either.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by kiquos

they are not ponying up, only want to be responsible for 1/2 labor and engine, which means they do the labor for free.. Ain't happening, so to court it is.
Carrillo Rods are torqued to 55 ft-lbs, and VAC ARP to 45 ft-lbs. I think they only did it to 45.

Had any luck with getting the c**** to pay up?

[Kevin2012E92]

Congratulations!!

[Kevin2012E92]

Congratulations!!

[Assimilator1]

Huh?