E92 M3 - Metallic clunk / grind on cold start (With 3 Videos + Image of Noise)

[anom3]

I agree with most of what bradley said. But I'll highlight a couple items I can make a comment on.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's unlikely that it did. You probably just haven't noticed it until now. Human perception is funny like that. Once we notice something, it seems obvious. This is a well documented phenomenon.

I'll just say again... There are 2 (3 if you include that standard Vanos Growl that most BMWs give off) noises. The alternator clunk has most likely been there all along, with varying degrees of "loudness". The rapid multiple clunk (I wont embed this video again, just watch this video and you'll know what I mean : vimeo.com/97717665) is the issue I was dealing with. Although I am a firm believer in MANY of the insights science has arrived at into human perception (amateur-ish study of the nature of consciousness is actually a hobby of mine...), there is NO WAY you will "miss" the noise in the vimeo video I posted.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

1) In order to test the elimination of a problem, you need to be able to reproduce it consistently. You don't need to be able to reproduce it 100% of the time, but the higher the percentage the better. Anom3 could speak better to how consistently he was able to reproduce. I'd put the number at around 90%.

Much less then that actually. With all those settings at default, I would say it would average about 3 of 5 cold starts. Further more, I would not see it for like 5 days, then 3 days in a row it would pop up. Other times, 1 yes / 1 no, repeat. So it was completly random for me.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

2) The testing interval for this condition is ridiculously long. The car needs to sit for an extended period (8 hours or more). Presumably so that two conditions can be met: a) engine completely cold so that the ECU initiates cold start, and b) all oil having leaked down from the upper valve train.

Agreed, but, depending on where I parked the vehicle and time of year (temperature?) I would sometimes see it after as little as 4-5 hours.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Under tightly controlled conditions, you might be able to test for this twice a day. Anom3 was able to test once every couple of days, because (for the love of all things motoring!) who has the time to put their M3 under quarantine for a problem of questionable effect?

To further complicate things, what I noticed is that if I did a cold start. Turned it off right away, and waited until the next day (eg: on a day where I did not take the vehicle out anywhere), it was quite likely it would not happen again.

I would really like to see somehow with a) a coding cable + simple know how on how to modify the ecu parameters (easy beasy ncs expert stuff) and b) the rapid multiple clunk noise issue try the settings above just to validate that this is in fact a solution. Although, 18 days and counting, no rattle

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by anom3

I would really like to see somehow with a) a coding cable + simple know how on how to modify the ecu parameters (easy beasy ncs expert stuff) and b) the rapid multiple clunk noise issue try the settings above just to validate that this is in fact a solution. Although, 18 days and counting, no rattle

It's really great how much effort you have put into this.
As a single point of reference I would note that my engine has never made the noises that you guys have (over 6 years and 60k miles)...and my car often sits for several days at a time between starts and I actively listen out for it.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Normal (in an engineering context) means within design specifications. It has nothing to do with anyone's opinion on what the motor should sound like on startup. Anyone is free to dislike this attribute of the S65, of course, but it doesn't make it abnormal.

"If this were normal why have I never heard it on the other BMW's I've owned and currently own?"

Because none of them had an S65, and the S65 is a unique snowflake of a motor that is entirely focused on performance and specific output with little regard for making people uncomfortable with the noises it makes.

"And if so, why did it just pop up last week?"

It's unlikely that it did. You probably just haven't noticed it until now. Human perception is funny like that. Once we notice something, it seems obvious. This is a well documented phenomenon.

"That indicates to me something has changed during this time."

The noise doesn't occur consistently because it requires a very specific, and not entirely understood, set of conditions to occur. The only "change" is conditions and your perception. We know that loosely defined, those conditions are related to a "cold start", but that's not a very precise specification. Anom3 has done a lot of investigation, and even he had a hard time identifying exactly what conditions would reproduce it. Occasionally, the noise wouldn't occur under expected conditions. From a troubleshooting perspective, this makes things extremely difficult.

1) In order to test the elimination of a problem, you need to be able to reproduce it consistently. You don't need to be able to reproduce it 100% of the time, but the higher the percentage the better. Anom3 could speak better to how consistently he was able to reproduce. I'd put the number at around 90%.

2) The testing interval for this condition is ridiculously long. The car needs to sit for an extended period (8 hours or more). Presumably so that two conditions can be met: a) engine completely cold so that the ECU initiates cold start, and b) all oil having leaked down from the upper valve train.

Under tightly controlled conditions, you might be able to test for this twice a day. Anom3 was able to test once every couple of days, because (for the love of all things motoring!) who has the time to put their M3 under quarantine for a problem of questionable effect?

Do yourself a favor. Don't delude yourself in to believing that something different is going on with your car. It will only lead to unwarranted anxiety. I didn't think my car made the noise until I read this thread. I'd never heard it. Then, one day out of the blue, I come across this thread. The next time I go to start my car, I roll my window down in the garage, and damned if I didn't hear the clatter of what sounded like lifter knock. I've heard it many times since then.

While I sure hope you are right (and I appreciate the thought that went into your post) I don't think you are right about me just now noticing it. Unfortunately its impossible to know for sure but I will say that I have paid very close attention to the noises this engine makes from day one as I learned about the bearing issues the day after I bought it and have been totally obsessed since. It is so loud when starting it in the garage that I truly doubt it has been there all along....but that's impossible to quantify at this point. The noise itself doesn't bother me, I just hope its not indicative of something bad to come. I'll take your advice and not fret over it though.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

It's really great how much effort you have put into this.
As a single point of reference I would note that my engine has never made the noises that you guys have (over 6 years and 60k miles)...and my car often sits for several days at a time between starts and I actively listen out for it.

Yeah, anom has been awesome. And its very reassuring that the noise disappeared when he delayed that setting.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

While I sure hope you are right (and I appreciate the thought that went into your post) I don't think you are right about me just now noticing it. Unfortunately its impossible to know for sure but I will say that I have paid very close attention to the noises this engine makes from day one as I learned about the bearing issues the day after I bought it and have been totally obsessed since. It is so loud when starting it in the garage that I truly doubt it has been there all along....but that's impossible to quantify at this point. The noise itself doesn't bother me, I just hope its not indicative of something bad to come. I'll take your advice and not fret over it though.

Not a problem One thing I would recommend is to send an oil sample to Blackstone with every oil change. It might seem expensive, but it's way cheaper than spinning main! You need to send every time so that you can get a baseline for the metals present in a typical oil change, and can track changes over time. All S65 specimens will be a little bit different, so you want to know what's normal for your car. Then you can spot anomalies before they become an issue.

Some light reading (includes talk of oil analysis): http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=919196

[RobertEvans]

I've heard a clunk before and it is not present when i remember to turn off the HVAC (specifically the ac compressor) when i shut it down before its next cold start.

[Doc Oc]

My rattle was so strong this morning when I started the car I felt it in the pedals! This can't be normal. Also seems like I'm hearing an RPM based tick under low rpm/high load conditions that I haven't noticed before. If I have it in 4th around 1500 rpms and get on it, I hear ticking until I get past about 3k rpms. Sounds a lot like an exhaust leak but I'm pretty sure it's not. Any ideas?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

My rattle was so strong this morning when I started the car I felt it in the pedals! This can't be normal. Also seems like I'm hearing an RPM based tick under low rpm/high load conditions that I haven't noticed before. If I have it in 4th around 1500 rpms and get on it, I hear ticking until I get past about 3k rpms. Sounds a lot like an exhaust leak but I'm pretty sure it's not. Any ideas?

You really should get the car to someone who has experience diagnosing the S65. In other words, get it to a dealer with a good service reputation. That last part is important. It's worth a bit of a drive to get a good dealer. The S65 isn't inexpensive to replace if it goes south.

Diagnosing sounds based on someone else's description is highly inaccurate. If you can get a vide of the sound, that can help, but the microphone on cell phones is designed to pick up people's voices, not engine sounds, so there are pretty significant limits on how well anyone can do over the internet.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

My rattle was so strong this morning when I started the car I felt it in the pedals! This can't be normal. Also seems like I'm hearing an RPM based tick under low rpm/high load conditions that I haven't noticed before. If I have it in 4th around 1500 rpms and get on it, I hear ticking until I get past about 3k rpms. Sounds a lot like an exhaust leak but I'm pretty sure it's not. Any ideas?

Not normal !

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You really should get the car to someone who has experience diagnosing the S65. In other words, get it to a dealer with a good service reputation. That last part is important. It's worth a bit of a drive to get a good dealer. The S65 isn't inexpensive to replace if it goes south.

Diagnosing sounds based on someone else's description is highly inaccurate. If you can get a vide of the sound, that can help, but the microphone on cell phones is designed to pick up people's voices, not engine sounds, so there are pretty significant limits on how well anyone can do over the internet.

Not really agreed with that ..
I recognize that metallic clunk in every single video with that noise .
Ever tried to put a high quality head phone on ?
And..Ohhh yeah , that makes it more than clear ,you can just believe me about that

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Not normal !

You know what the crazy thing is, the brake trick works. I laughed when i first read it but damn if it doesnt work. No big rattles the last few mornings, just the clunk. Still not sure on the ticking though. I installed the tune and test pipes and the intake the day before I noticed it so maybe its nothing. I can only reproduce the ticking noise on the road so its nearly impossible to record it. I can hear a very slight tick at idle if I listen through the driver side hood vent but I'm pretty sure that's the normal tick. Regardless I'm going to shell out 2400 bucks next month for the bearings just in case.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

You know what the crazy thing is, the brake trick works. I laughed when i first read it but damn if it doesnt work. No big rattles the last few mornings, just the clunk. Still not sure on the ticking though. I installed the tune and test pipes and the intake the day before I noticed it so maybe its nothing. I can only reproduce the ticking noise on the road so its nearly impossible to record it. I can hear a very slight tick at idle if I listen through the driver side hood vent but I'm pretty sure that's the normal tick. Regardless I'm going to shell out 2400 bucks next month for the bearings just in case.

Yep , that's what I said from last year , the brake procedure works but only on DCT's to avoid the clunk noise .
I had the single clunk noise at start up when engine was cold , but once that I'm not doing the brake procedure it's back !
For me personal it's the brake procedure that really works , and I know it's really funny ...but effective !
About your ticking noise , just try to post a video..

[Doc Oc]

Will do as soon as possible, thanks!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Not really agreed with that ..
I recognize that metallic clunk in every single video with that noise .
Ever tried to put a high quality head phone on ?
And..Ohhh yeah , that makes it more than clear ,you can just believe me about that

I've got a good set of Sennheiser open headphones and a set of MDR-7506's. The problem isn't on the sound reproduction side, it's on the capture side. Cell phone microphones vary widely in quality and performance. That's besides the point though.

The point is that you're beating the drum leading people to do things like replace their main bearings based on what? The sound of a cell phone recording? That's insane. Anom replaced his bearings and this mysterious sound you're so obsessed with persisted. He ended up solving it with some coding changes. You're pushing people to replace expensive components based on an internet armchair diagnosis.

At this point, anyone who listens to you is a fool.

I'm sorry, but I find your comments irresponsible, and as someone who has repaired engines for a living, I'd tell my customers to avoid your advice entirely. You've crossed over to some strange kind of fanaticism where every ticking noise you hear in a video is the boogey man, requiring a main bearing replacement AOMG ASAP.

I'm not saying these people should ignore the sounds their engines are making. I'm saying they should go visit a repair shop that can do things like send the oil off for a Blackstone report, measure oil pressure, and listen in person. They could do without someone screaming "ZOMG YOUR MAIN BEARINGS ARE GOING TO FAIL" at every tick or clack.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I've got a good set of Sennheiser open headphones and a set of MDR-7506's. The problem isn't on the sound reproduction side, it's on the capture side. Cell phone microphones vary widely in quality and performance. That's besides the point though.

The point is that you're beating the drum leading people to do things like replace their main bearings based on what? The sound of a cell phone recording? That's insane. Anom replaced his bearings and this mysterious sound you're so obsessed with persisted. He ended up solving it with some coding changes. You're pushing people to replace expensive components based on an internet armchair diagnosis.

At this point, anyone who listens to you is a fool.

I'm sorry, but I find your comments irresponsible, and as someone who has repaired engines for a living, I'd tell my customers to avoid your advice entirely. You've crossed over to some strange kind of fanaticism where every ticking noise you hear in a video is the boogey man, requiring a main bearing replacement AOMG ASAP.

I'm not saying these people should ignore the sounds their engines are making. I'm saying they should go visit a repair shop that can do things like send the oil off for a Blackstone report, measure oil pressure, and listen in person. They could do without someone screaming "ZOMG YOUR MAIN BEARINGS ARE GOING TO FAIL" at every tick or clack.

Ok , Here we go again ..
How many video's do you heard with extreme ticking or rattle noises ?
God damn ! I listened for the last 2 years probably thousands of times to these videos .
Why ?
Because people are posting videos over here with the always the same question => Is this sound is normal ?
You can bet on it when I open my laptop/s that I will listen to some...
I received at least 100-120 videos from all over the world , also from people that never typed one single word on this forum , but they are watching !
So I receive videos by PM and Email .

The point is that I have learned how our S65 not should sound , so the first thing is to learn the normal noises of the S65 .
I can tell you till today I was 0 times wrong !
I never said replace your bearings...."NEVER" !
Because I'm not the owner of that car , it's only the owner/s decision !
I said when the noise was not normal => Take no further risks and take your car to your BMW/Dealer .
And what's wrong with that ? => Forwarned is Forearmed !
And when I hear something wrong and they ask me ...Can I say drive till you get a black hole ?!?!
How can you know of what I hear or not ?
But one case I'll repeat for you..long story in short
So I received a video with loud ticking noise , and went louder with the rpm's ..
I sad like always ...You know what by now .
He sad I can hear nothing , after 2 weeks the guy was crying with a black hole ...still student out of warranty with not enough money , so he sold the car with a black hole .
Till today I received from all the videos 4 real cases of bearing failure that I heard it was ...
The 5 th from yesterday is probably today at his BMW/Dealer and I'm waiting for update ..
And for the moment my database counts more than 200 videos ordered in 3 stages...
-1 ste degree => Ticking noises louder than the normal S65 ticking noises.
-2 nd degree => Ticking noises that are increasing in loudness with the rpm's and are also rithmic with the rpm's .
-3 th degree => Rattle or knock noises , you know what that means .

Blackstone ?
I'm ok with that , but I'm not sure that you saw several cases with really good Blacktone's => But after 3-4 weeks they blew ?!?!
The point is none of us with our S65's has perfect bearings , because BMW has serious f@cked up with the design flaw of our bearings !
Some look like crap only after 15-20K , others blew at 6K !
BWM what a joke , 2 weeks ago a friend with loud ticking noises with BMW/Warranty but also with a aftermarket exhaust ..
Now the cause is the aftermarket exhaust and the guy needs a laywer !
The only thing BMW is doing is to run...just walk , because they know for over 12 years what is happening Worldwide , and yes I had some German info about the Worldwide Bull/5H1T and the amazing numbers !

Do you want to know more...I'm here .(or just PM me)
BTW....I'm doing this for "FREE" , and only try to help people before further damage is caused ..
So please don't tell me that I can't hear it , because I can bet on it !
At least I'm trying to do something to help and for free while BMW is making billions and does NOTHING !
BTW...Nothing against you .

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by NAM3WINS

I agree with bradleyland, individuals like M Power Belgium are doing a lot of bad to all E92 M owners. Not only through non-professional ill goten advice usually : "blah blah it's the bearings!! Iwish you good!! ! !!!thank me. blah blah !!" . Hurting all of us who will never have that problem and confusing a lot of people who also don't have it too and defaming the image of ALL e92 owner's car with people who may be interested in the car.

And you are talking only from the financial situation , thinking your car someday is losing value !
Saw that before , and actually you are right ....just drive till your's blow and say nothing !
I'm going only for the truth and in public , for me you are not thinking on all the other people Worldwide in trouble !
You are thinking only on your own pockets , I don't care of the actual value of my car .
I only care about the people in trouble , and give not 5H1T about second hand value .
And I really hope your's never blow ...
People who may be interested in the car , right when your S65 is without a black hole !
Don't forget that some people have one, some more than once...and more will come !
So your statement is only BS !

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

How many video's do you heard with extreme ticking or rattle noises ?

How many engines have you torn down and rebuilt? I started when I was 7 when my dad let me torque the heads on his 1600 dual-port destined for placement in our beloved Beetle. I'm no master technician, but I did commercial/industrial equipment repair for a couple of years. Some petrol, some diesel. I've rebuilt a Chrysler LA 360 from the short block (including replacing mains and big-end rod bearings) up. I've almost burned a shop down brazing an oil pan that I clearly didn't clean well enough

The way you troubleshoot is dangerous. I don't care if you've watched 5,000 videos. The way you troubleshoot is dangerous, and whether or not you've directly told anyone to replace their mains, that's the impression they get. You're bordering on reckless.

I think you're well intentioned. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I just think you need to adjust your message a bit. You should be recommending that the people experiencing these abnormalities seek help from someone competent who is capable of examining the car in person.

You are way too confident in your conclusions for the amount of information you have. That's all I'm saying.

[anom3]

+1.

While I agree there is something to be gained from watching videos and providing helpful 'it could be...'... No one will know for sure until the motor is taken out and striped wide open. Period.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

How many engines have you torn down and rebuilt? I started when I was 7 when my dad let me torque the heads on his 1600 dual-port destined for placement in our beloved Beetle. I'm no master technician, but I did commercial/industrial equipment repair for a couple of years. Some petrol, some diesel. I've rebuilt a Chrysler LA 360 from the short block (including replacing mains and big-end rod bearings) up. I've almost burned a shop down brazing an oil pan that I clearly didn't clean well enough

The way you troubleshoot is dangerous. I don't care if you've watched 5,000 videos. The way you troubleshoot is dangerous, and whether or not you've directly told anyone to replace their mains, that's the impression they get. You're bordering on reckless.

I think you're well intentioned. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I just think you need to adjust your message a bit. You should be recommending that the people experiencing these abnormalities seek help from someone competent who is capable of examining the car in person.

You are way too confident in your conclusions for the amount of information you have. That's all I'm saying.

[LIMITLESS_M3]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

And you are talking only from the financial situation , thinking your car someday is losing value !
Saw that before , and actually you are right ....just drive till your's blow and say nothing !
I'm going only for the truth and in plublic , for me you are not thinking on all the other people Worldwide in trouble !
You are thinking only on your own pockets , I don't care of the actual value of my car .
I only care about the people in trouble , and give not 5H1T about second hand value .
And I really hope your's never blow ...
People who may be interested in the car , right when your S65 is without a black hole !
Don't forget that some people have one, some more than once...and more will come !
So your statement is only BS !

All BS.

-You ARE Hurting and ignoring 54,150 of us worldwide (more than this actually this is just an intentionally wrong gross assumption of 5% fail) who will never have that problem.

- You ARE doing bad to 20 times more people than I am.

. Even if 10X more people than this intentionally exaggerated number are affected you are STILL hurting more people.

- You ARE confusing a lot of gullible people on this forum with your non-professional internet armchair diagnostics.

- You ARE openly using : scare tactics, irrational statements, emotional BS, ill-goten advice, bashing, misrepresenting yourself as a professional expert.

- Yes i do care about my car value and so do the majority of 57,500 M3 owners. There is nothing wrong with that, rather than your hypocrite stance of "!! : I wish you well with your car ;!)!!..meanswhile let me use my BS expertise.. and bash some more!!" = BS

- Yes you are unnecessarily defaming the image of ALL e92 who will work never experiencing a problem.

While I am at it, Everyone should know that you drive a car with DME file downloaded off the internet. Rather than going to a proper tuner shop that has the facility and equipment to monitor your car on a dyno and checks all your engine parameters in situ, while tuning it which what a tune is. Instead you took risk with a file loader.

People, be careful who you listen to on those forums. Even if like mister M Power Belgium he posts : "!!!!:!!" all day long while bashing our car to death.

[anom3]

On another note... I am glad that I was able to resolve my cold start multi-clunk just in time for this thread to go down the drain

Its been over a month now... And those settings I changed have worked. Period.

I even experimented and before our weekend drive reverted them back to stock... Behold, it was back

[LIMITLESS_M3]

Originally Posted by anom3

On another note... I am glad that I was able to resolve my cold start multi-clunk just in time for this thread to go down the drain

Its been over a month now... And those settings I changed have worked. Period.

I even experimented and before our weekend drive reverted them back to stock... Behold, it was back

I am glad for you. And it wasn't a bearing issue like M Power Belgium WANTED it to be.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

How many engines have you torn down and rebuilt? I started when I was 7 when my dad let me torque the heads on his 1600 dual-port destined for placement in our beloved Beetle. I'm no master technician, but I did commercial/industrial equipment repair for a couple of years. Some petrol, some diesel. I've rebuilt a Chrysler LA 360 from the short block (including replacing mains and big-end rod bearings) up. I've almost burned a shop down brazing an oil pan that I clearly didn't clean well enough

The way you troubleshoot is dangerous. I don't care if you've watched 5,000 videos. The way you troubleshoot is dangerous, and whether or not you've directly told anyone to replace their mains, that's the impression they get. You're bordering on reckless.

I think you're well intentioned. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I just think you need to adjust your message a bit. You should be recommending that the people experiencing these abnormalities seek help from someone competent who is capable of examining the car in person.

You are way too confident in your conclusions for the amount of information you have. That's all I'm saying.

Think you are not reading my words correctly...
When I hear something wrong => And only when it sounds wrong I'm saying always => Call your BMW/Dealer ASAP to avoid further damage, and stop driving your car !
Who else than BMW ?
And even most BMW/Dealers just s@ck !
What would you say ? Drive your car till it blows ?

That's it my friend , who they need to call... ? Superman ?
And when it happens to my car , BMW ? => "NEVER" !
I'm only going for a bearing replacement only to a shop/garage with a lot of knowledge only because they have done it many times and with a warranty on the bearing job !
So ! I'm going "ONLY HERE" => http://fahrzeugtechnik-mork.de/
And you are saying I'm reckless ...
The point is that I only want the best for our S65's , and hope others will follow me as an example about bearing replacements only done with the the necessary experience and knowledge !
WHY ?
Because the "German fools" had or have no fix for the S65 bearings => not in the past (the last 12 years) => no today => and not in future , because the S65 is became history in 2014 !
And...That's all I'm saying just as you said to me !
But in the end we are all in the same boat with the name => "The Titanic"
From now on....I'm deaf !!!
And actualy I'm tired to see and to receive PM's , Emails with videos ...to listen ,and all these threads with noises and bearing 5H1T full of crap created by the German idiots only thinking on financial speculation !!!
The more I have done for others on here ...The more people are not agreed ! Probably that's just logic..