C63 or M3?

[armyav8tor]

Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by boombastic

just another narrow-minded guy.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

The M3 doesn't need to be defended. You on the other hand felt the need to defend your C63 in every thread on a M3 forum, what a joke. My opinion and taste differs from your's, get over it. The ///M division did a great job with the M3, they know what needed to be changed and what should be left alone something that I feel AMG knows nothing about (more is not aways better). The M3's powerdom is there because the V8 is pushed back further into the firewall and therefore sticks up more than the normal 3, it is necessarily, not a styling cue from the e46 M3. The M3, like the M5 does not have fog lights like the e46 M3 did. That is one example of how the design cues are the same.

[armyav8tor]

Since the response was obviously aimed toward me, I'll take the bait. I am not a fan boy. I am a driver in that I drive the car the way it was designed to be driven. I take my car to the track and I push it to its full capabilities and enjoy the hell out of it. An example of a fan boy would be someone who owns a MBZ and comes to the M3forums and defends their purchase like they were involved into the design process. I don't like the C63, that is why I purchased the M3. I don't think my opinion was out of line.

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Interesting. I post my appreciation of a car I almost bought (and have owned in the past) yet make one design comment, and someone immediately starts off with the fanboy stuff. And the thread breaks down all over again. I even mentioned that I'm looking forward to the new 5er model as a potential purchase. And I brought up an already known controversial design as it is anyway.

And then somebody links my post and responds about the C63 and M3. Two cars I never mentioned. And now the trash talk starts up once again. Sigh.

This forum is becoming useless. Nobody can talk about anything unless it's some sort of BMW pep rally. I don't get it. Are people so insecure that they can't realize these are cars and nothing else. What you own doesn't determine who you are as a human being. Or your intelligence. Or status in life. Far from it. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. Most posters seem to be living that BMW owner stereotype, which is truly unfortunate. Unbeknownst to them, they are perpetuating that (inauspicious and overgeneralized) myth.

This is one of the most juvenile car forums on the internet, imho. I'm on it because I am a BMW fan and former owner (of many), and am ready for another car to add soon. Occasionally there's some good info here.

Why is it that other car forums can maturely discuss the pros and cons of their cars (and other makes) but rarely here?

This place sometimes feels like being in high school all over again. Which was a long time ago for me and a place I'm not interested in re-visiting.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Yeah, I get swept up in the bs, too, sometimes. I take several long breaks while working and come on here for a diversion. And lately it's become more like entertainment for me than any real car discussion.

I'm beginning to realize that the recent thread here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292349 was actually something else altogether that no one really picked up on (including me.) I'm thinking it was intentionally a parody of the fanboys here. A kind of test, or 'trap.' Or maybe an art project

Overall, I think m3post is actually one of the more mature and informative forums I've been a member of. Sure, you have a couple of sub-forums that bring out the trolls and fanboys and have a high noise to information ratio (this one, for example), but that's to be expected given the subject matter being discussed in them. Obviously, as forums grow, the meaningful discussion is increasingly dilluted with noise, but for the most part, I simply avoid responding to such posts or certain threads altogether.

On the other hand, responding to a post that may cross the line by pointing the fanboy finger or throwing out the BMW-owner stereotype certainly won't break the cycle or add anything to the discussion.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

Since the response was obviously aimed toward me, I'll take the bait. I am not a fan boy. I am a driver in that I drive the car the way it was designed to be driven. I take my car to the track and I push it to its full capabilities and enjoy the hell out of it. An example of a fan boy would be someone who owns a MBZ and comes to the M3forums and defends their purchase like they were involved into the design process. I don't like the C63, that is why I purchased the M3. I don't think my opinion was out of line.

Sorry to disappoint but it wasn't aimed at you. Seriously. It was an observation that posts end up deteriorating in this sort of thing. And that's exactly what just happened. And is happening.

I don't own a C63. I don't own a M3. My post was about 5ers, M5s and the W211 E63. And a basic design comment. I have owned lots of BMWs. I like them. A lot. I'm probably going to buy another one soon (F10) I simply mentioned a design issue that I noticed and am not the only one (it's been a hot debate in the auto world for years now): re: the Bangle legacy.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

The M3 doesn't need to be defended. You on the other hand felt the need to defend your C63 in every thread on a M3 forum, what a joke. My opinion and taste differs from your's, get over it. The ///M division did a great job with the M3, they know what needed to be changed and what should be left alone something that I feel AMG knows nothing about (more is not aways better). The M3's powerdom is there because the V8 is pushed back further into the firewall and therefore sticks up more than the normal 3, it is necessarily, not a styling cue from the e46 M3. The M3, like the M5 does not have fog lights like the e46 M3 did. That is one example of how the design cues are the same.

Why am I not surprised that your response would come out of left field? Maybe in this case the left field bleachers! When did I ever attack, the M3 in post #111 or any under my name?: Your post is the classic "your cornered and there is no place to run". For the record, a overwhelming MAJORITY of my posts have been in the "M3 Vs" section and more narrowly in regards to threads related to the C63. The whole purpose of the forum is to discuss and debate the topics at hand. I'm sure the members reading at home (or being entertained at the office) with there head screwed on straight have seen numerous posts that allegedly claim to be accurate true statements regarding the C63 from people who never even driven the car (or own a M3) which are nothing more then false. Example "C63 is good in a straight line but once you take it in the turns your done". "A M3 with an exhaust and tune is just as quick as a C63". This is like telling everyone the world is flat, and its safe to walk on water. Its not defending the car, its setting the record straight. Defending the car would be "The AMG engineers tried to save money so they used the 7G gear box instead of offering a manual causes no one wants a manual". Statements along those lines. A joke would not being able to comprehend that. I said it before opinions are subjective and should be respected!!!! There is nothing wrong with you choosing one car and I the other. However how can you say the M division knew what to change and knew what to leave alone? What did you expect the car to look totally different and not an evolution of its predecessor. Also all the technological advancements were made with staying competitive if not a head of the market because competition. I guess AMG keeping around the M156 V8 and the 6.0 V12 TT is an example that they don't know what there doing? Sure AMG has its faults and critics but the cars certainly appeal to there base, and new customers (Like me coming from a M3 after owning 3 BMW's) or they be dropping models. The power dome with the V8 is a partial design aspect and a partial functionality. The E46 had it first and it served no purpose, just like the dummy nostril on the hood of the E92. Also the removal of the fog lights wasn't a design aspect it was to ensure increase cooling to the brakes through those air ducts. In the future don't make outrageous claims and statements if your not ready to debate them.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by TLud

On the other hand, responding to a post that may cross the line by pointing the fanboy finger or throwing out the BMW-owner stereotype certainly won't break the cycle or add anything to the discussion.

No, it won't. I agree. I did mention that there is occasionally good info here. And I posted that the stereotyping is really unfortunate (trust me, I've been a BMW owner and have endured it.) It's equally unfortunate that people tell me my E63 AMG is for "old people" who can't drive. Despite the fact that I own a Porsche that I also use in HPDEs on the track (when I can afford new tires ) It's just odd, imho.

Anyway, nothing will break the cycle. But this forum is uniquely different than Rennlist, for example. And I just wonder why, sometimes.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by TLud

Overall, I think m3post is actually one of the more mature and informative forums I've been a member of. Sure, you have a couple of sub-forums that bring out the trolls and fanboys and have a high noise to information ratio (this one, for example), but that's to be expected given the subject matter being discussed in them. Obviously, as forums grow, the meaningful discussion is increasingly dilluted with noise, but for the most part, I simply avoid responding to such posts or certain threads altogether.

On the other hand, responding to a post that may cross the line by pointing the fanboy finger or throwing out the BMW-owner stereotype certainly won't break the cycle or add anything to the discussion.

+1

[TLud]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

No, it won't. I agree. I did mention that there is occasionally good info here. And I posted that the stereotyping is really unfortunate (trust me, I've been a BMW owner and have endured it.) It's equally unfortunate that people tell me my E63 AMG is for "old people" who can't drive. Despite the fact that I own a Porsche that I also use in HPDEs on the track (when I can afford new tires ) It's just odd, imho.

Anyway, nothing will break the cycle. But this forum is uniquely different than Rennlist, for example. And I just wonder why, sometimes.

I too get frustrated with the BS sometimes and indulge a spur of the moment reaction that doesn't help anything. It's human nature.

I was telling someone the other day that if I had the space for two cars right now, I'd take pretty much the same route you have. I'd have a high performance luxury sedan and a new Cayman S for fun and the track. For the luxury sedan, if I had to choose between the E63 AMG and the E60 M5, I'd take the E63 every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is one of the most understated and underrated cars out there. For now, the M3 gives me the best compromise between luxury and sport in one package.

[graider]

why is that when someone don't like the c63amg, then they automatically become bmw fanboy or narrow mind? that doens't make any sense. I like the IS-F and RS4, does that make me a Lexus fanboy now? I even like the GTR as you can see from my other posts. But not the c63, sorry. If i'm in a market for a 4 door saloon, I will have to go through IS-F, RS4, e90 m3, used m5, etc before I even care about the amg.

I myself don't feel the c63 amg at all in the look department. Actually all AMG except for the G class AMG truck or the sl black series. it think they look awesome . Sure the c63 amg has a big displacement engine and lot of torque. But it is a fail in comparison to the m3 handling, balance, feel, look, whatever you call it.

The dude that compares the regular 3 series to the amg is on crack. Please put an e92 M3 beside the AMG and see how it fair.

Simply put. There are lot of cars from other brands that I really like, but not merc in general. I don't see how that makes me narrow mind. That is just my personal preference.

[graider]

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

Why am I not surprised that your response would come out of left field? Maybe in this case the left field bleachers! When did I ever attack, the M3 in post #111 or any under my name?: Your post is the classic "your cornered and there is no place to run". For the record, a overwhelming MAJORITY of my posts have been in the "M3 Vs" section and more narrowly in regards to threads related to the C63. The whole purpose of the forum is to discuss and debate the topics at hand. I'm sure the members reading at home (or being entertained at the office) with there head screwed on straight have seen numerous posts that allegedly claim to be accurate true statements regarding the C63 from people who never even driven the car (or own a M3) which are nothing more then false. Example "C63 is good in a straight line but once you take it in the turns your done". "A M3 with an exhaust and tune is just as quick as a C63". This is like telling everyone the world is flat, and its safe to walk on water. Its not defending the car, its setting the record straight. Defending the car would be "The AMG engineers tried to save money so they used the 7G gear box instead of offering a manual causes no one wants a manual". Statements along those lines. A joke would not being able to comprehend that. I said it before opinions are subjective and should be respected!!!! There is nothing wrong with you choosing one car and I the other. However how can you say the M division knew what to change and knew what to leave alone? What did you expect the car to look totally different and not an evolution of its predecessor. Also all the technological advancements were made with staying competitive if not a head of the market because competition. I guess AMG keeping around the M156 V8 and the 6.0 V12 TT is an example that they don't know what there doing? Sure AMG has its faults and critics but the cars certainly appeal to there base, and new customers (Like me coming from a M3 after owning 3 BMW's) or they be dropping models. The power dome with the V8 is a partial design aspect and a partial functionality. The E46 had it first and it served no purpose, just like the dummy nostril on the hood of the E92. Also the removal of the fog lights wasn't a design aspect it was to ensure increase cooling to the brakes through those air ducts. In the future don't make outrageous claims and statements if your not ready to debate them.

It is truth that the stock m3 spank the c63 amg on the curve. Straight line speed the amg rule. I rather take one that can take curve faster.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by graider

The dude that compares the regular 3 series to the amg is on crack. Please put an e92 M3 beside the AMG and see how it fair.

you're on crack bud.

even if it was an M3 its profile would still look doughy in comparison. s'all i was gettin at. go figure out what a profile is.

[spicoli024]

With a CLS and having driven the e92 I could argue for either side, but IMHO, the BMW takes the cake. MBZ, to me, is recognized more for their luxury sport sedans. The CLS handles better at higher speeds than any other car I have ever had the privilege of riding in; however, the BMW (e46, 92, whatever) is peacefully controlled through the twisties.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by graider

why is that when someone don't like the c63amg, then they automatically become bmw fanboy or narrow mind? that doens't make any sense. I like the IS-F and RS4, does that make me a Lexus fanboy now? I even like the GTR as you can see from my other posts. But not the c63, sorry. If i'm in a market for a 4 door saloon, I will have to go through IS-F, RS4, e90 m3, used m5, etc before I even care about the amg.

I myself don't feel the c63 amg at all in the look department. Actually all AMG except for the G class AMG truck or the sl black series. it think they look awesome . Sure the c63 amg has a big displacement engine and lot of torque. But it is a fail in comparison to the m3 handling, balance, feel, look, whatever you call it.

The dude that compares the regular 3 series to the amg is on crack. Please put an e92 M3 beside the AMG and see how it fair.

Simply put. There are lot of cars from other brands that I really like, but not merc in general. I don't see how that makes me narrow mind. That is just my personal preference.

No one attacked you for not liking the C63. In fact I only questioned your reasoning and your response as shown above, and you completely ignored the question at hand as you tried to change the subject. Calling the C63 "straight out of the Chrysler Design Studio" is not only baseless its completely irrational. Considering you fine the G55 appealing (its nothing more then a box on 4 wheels with the AMG version offering side exhaust to differentiate it styling wise) and the SL65 Black Series (probably the most exotic/extreme looking car Mercedes itself (Keyword No SLR) created) it seems your opinion is all over the place. Considering you think the C63 "fails" in terms of handling may I ask have you ever driven one? If so for how long and on what roads? have you even driven a new M3?

Your personal opinion is nothing more then your opinion but making statements that are simply FALSE is what a fanboy would do.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by spicoli024

With a CLS and having driven the e92 I could argue for either side, but IMHO, the BMW takes the cake. MBZ, to me, is recognized more for their luxury sport sedans. The CLS handles better at higher speeds than any other car I have ever had the privilege of riding in; however, the BMW (e46, 92, whatever) is peacefully controlled through the twisties.

I think everyone in the ENTIRE universe would agree that a heavy sedan will not handle as well in the tight corners as a much lighter car. Whether it's an "E46 or 92," etc.. That's a given that no one will ever argue. (and yes, the CLS is also made as a coupe, but it weighs even more than a 4 door E63. So it's still a "sedan" in terms of weight and size.)

And we all understand that there is always a trade-off between comfort and cornering ability in respect to the design of a suspension.

But people keep coming out of the woodwork saying "yeah, well the BMW can beat it that big ol' Benz in the corners." Duh, no kidding. And all of a sudden we're now comparing larger and heavier (and safer, btw, with all that mass) MB sedans with little BMW sports sedans

I mean, come on, look at all the threads about the M3 handling better than the M5 on this very forum.

It's like some sort of mantra. Is that all than can be said about 3er BMWs? "huh, huh, yeah Beavis, the E9x is better in the corners."

It's like a broken record of something everyone already knows.

Here's the same statement: Those BMWs might be fast and they look okay but I'll take any BMW on in the canyons with my Porsche. Who cares about going fast in a straight line, or having more comfort in a larger car. My Porsche is way better in the twisties than any heavy BMW sports sedan. Therefore it's a way better car. End of story. The Porsche is better than the BMW.

[graider]

Yes, you guys started attack me and other saying we are fanboy this and that. The fact of the matter is we think the amg is ugly, a boat, and not as good as the m3.

No, I haven't driven either. But why would i need to drive one to be eligible to state my opinion about the amg in the handling department. Every one on here who tested drove it and all mags confirmed this.

How did I make a false statement? are you saying the amg handle better than the m3?

if anything, I think you are more of a fanboy here because you tried anything to justify your purchase.

Remember, I don't own either one, so my opinion is very neutral in this situation. i'm just saying what i saw, heard, learned so far about these two cars.

my original post stands. all merc in the past 15 years will look outdated and cannot stand the test of time. c63 will soon be one as well. M3 on the hand will look good even after 8 years. A good example is the e46 m3. the new m3 will look good in the next 5-10 years too.

maybe with the exception of the g class amg and sl black. this shows that I don't hate on merc, i'm just telling you the truth

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

No one attacked you for not liking the C63. In fact I only questioned your reasoning and your response as shown above, and you completely ignored the question at hand as you tried to change the subject. Calling the C63 "straight out of the Chrysler Design Studio" is not only baseless its completely irrational. Considering you fine the G55 appealing (its nothing more then a box on 4 wheels with the AMG version offering side exhaust to differentiate it styling wise) and the SL65 Black Series (probably the most exotic/extreme looking car Mercedes itself (Keyword No SLR) created) it seems your opinion is all over the place. Considering you think the C63 "fails" in terms of handling may I ask have you ever driven one? If so for how long and on what roads? have you even driven a new M3?

Your personal opinion is nothing more then your opinion but making statements that are simply FALSE is what a fanboy would do.

[TheKosherStogie]

"Here's the same statement: Those BMWs might be fast and they look okay but I'll take any BMW on in the canyons with my Porsche. "

i just came from a c2s...i contest that statement...90 percent of my driving is done thru canyons...the porsche got much more unsettled thru any bumps(canyons tend to have) due to the light front end. although i do know and have experience the fact it take more skill to drive the P-Cars at their limit

[graider]

Originally Posted by sammyrusso

"Here's the same statement: Those BMWs might be fast and they look okay but I'll take any BMW on in the canyons with my Porsche. "

i just came from a c2s...i contest that statement...90 percent of my driving is done thru canyons...the porsche got much more unsettled thru any bumps(canyons tend to have) due to the light front end. although i do know and have experience the fact it take more skill to drive the P-Cars at their limit

maybe he is compare his mod c2s to a stock 335i or something. Let put the loaded csl and his porche to the test. or current gt2 alms to the gt3 cup. The same thing would happen if you put a f430 scud to the 911, it will make the 911 feel obsolete.

my point is as the porsche costs more, it should be better. But that doesn't mean bmw can't produce a better car than porsche. They just have a different design philosophy and target market, that's all.

let put apple and apple to the test here, m3 to c63amg. In this case, the m3 is better. /thread

[southlight]

This bickering has to stop. So be warned guys, no more disregards towards each other or you'll get some personal warnings. Thanks!


Best regards,
south

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by graider

In this case, the m3 is better. /thread

At certain things, but that can't be made as a blanket statement.

[spicoli024]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

I think everyone in the ENTIRE universe would agree that a heavy sedan will not handle as well in the tight corners as a much lighter car. Whether it's an "E46 or 92," etc.. That's a given that no one will ever argue. (and yes, the CLS is also made as a coupe, but it weighs even more than a 4 door E63. So it's still a "sedan" in terms of weight and size.)

And we all understand that there is always a trade-off between comfort and cornering ability in respect to the design of a suspension.

But people keep coming out of the woodwork saying "yeah, well the BMW can beat it that big ol' Benz in the corners." Duh, no kidding. And all of a sudden we're now comparing larger and heavier (and safer, btw, with all that mass) MB sedans with little BMW sports sedans

I mean, come on, look at all the threads about the M3 handling better than the M5 on this very forum.

It's like some sort of mantra. Is that all than can be said about 3er BMWs? "huh, huh, yeah Beavis, the E9x is better in the corners."

It's like a broken record of something everyone already knows.

Here's the same statement: Those BMWs might be fast and they look okay but I'll take any BMW on in the canyons with my Porsche. Who cares about going fast in a straight line, or having more comfort in a larger car. My Porsche is way better in the twisties than any heavy BMW sports sedan. Therefore it's a way better car. End of story. The Porsche is better than the BMW.

I guess I did not explain that very well. I was saying MBZ, as a brand in general, is recognized as a luxury car rather than a sports car and although the c63 is incredibly quick, Mercedes failed to equip it with a suspension capable of harnessing all that power. Therefore, the c63 is not the all around sports car that is the M3 because it is just too sloopy through the twisties. I probably should have left out the whole idea of the CLS as it is OT, but, whatever. I was saying IMO, the CLS is a great car from MBZ because it handles like buttah (track obviously excluded) and has the power of a sports car all while mainting the luxuries of a spacious sedan. My verdict: If you are looking for a true sports car it is the e9x over the c63.

And yes, we all know your Porsche will take our little BMWs to school

[stickypaws]

Unfortunately there are some comprehension issues going on here. What I posted was a kind of simile. Or, an example of the same argument that anyone can give about a car's prowess depending on its forte.

It wasn't the "truth" in an objective sense. And yet here we go, now it's about the abilities of Porsche vs M3. Sigh.

Anyway, I'm outta here. As usual it all ends up getting sophomoric.

Here's the same statement: Those BMWs might be fast and they look okay but I'll take any BMW on in the canyons with my Porsche. Who cares about going fast in a straight line, or having more comfort in a larger car. My Porsche is way better in the twisties than any heavy BMW sports sedan. Therefore it's a way better car. End of story. The Porsche is better than the BMW.