Official S65 Injector Failure Thread

[TOSLOW]

Hello fellow M3 fans. After much research online, here, and in other groups, it appears that engine failures due to injector sticking issues are becoming increasingly prevalent, seeming to rank high on the "S65 Top Killers" list recently. Unfortunately, there is little, if any, data available on what is actually causing the injector failures. Lets use this thread to document failures, observations, root causes, and relevant discussions.

If you have an injector failure to document, please include the following information.

Year:
Miles:
Injector Failure symptoms:
Duration driven with symptoms:
Secondary failure: ie. hydrolock, scored cylinder, etc
Injector failure cause or theory:

Lets all pull together to figure out what is causing these injector failures and what we can do to avoid them as we continue to enjoy these magnificent machines well into the future.

[TOSLOW]

Some theories that I have heard thus far:

Internal failure. But the default position is closed, so short of the spring that keeps it closed failing, what else could cause this?
Debris preventing injector from closing
Filter at fuel pump degrading, allowing debris through. Any evidence?
The injectors have small filters in them, as most auto injectors do. Some say yes, others say no.
Fuel line or other component corrosion/particles from wear. Does a failing fuel pump create debris?
Material incompatibility with Ethanol?

[Redd]

My guess is fuel quality has a part to play. Maybe lesser quality fuels with lesser detergents cause buildup/deposits that over time cause the injector to be stuck open. I'd be keen to add questions on country, what brand/type fuel was used, and if fuel system cleaner was used regularly.

[pbonsalb]

I like fuel quality but have no inside knowledge. I buy only 93 and almost always Mobil. Not necessarily the best gas but a top tier supposedly more consistent provider. Shell and at least a few others would be just as good.

If you buy wherever cheapest or run lower grades without the same level of detergent packages, maybe that is less consistent and perhaps harder on injectors.

[TOSLOW]

Here is a good bit of information from our brethren on the other side of the pond

https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...ectors.239707/

[ProjektAutoScott]

This happened a few months back on my 2009 sedan that is now out of commission. I am now a huge advocate for replacing the injectors as a service item, they are cheap. Labor is easy. Bosch 62418. I got all of mine for $15 a piece from newparts.com, just do it.

Year: 2009

Miles: 98,000

Injector Failure symptoms: Misfires, raw fuel smell from exhaust, coked up spark plug in cylinder 8. Injector was dripping fuel when removed and pressurized.

Duration driven with symptoms: 50 miles while diagnosing and replacing coils, plugs, etc. assuming it was something else

Secondary failure: Cylinder 8 washed clean of oil, scored wall, only makes 30 PSI compression. Leak down goes straight past the rings. Now working on having the block reconditioned.

Injector failure cause or theory: Debris, age? Pretty simple devices.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by Redd

My guess is fuel quality has a part to play. Maybe lesser quality fuels with lesser detergents cause buildup/deposits that over time cause the injector to be stuck open. I'd be keen to add questions on country, what brand/type fuel was used, and if fuel system cleaner was used regularly.

Totally agree.. Gotta' keep 'em clean.
.

.

.
https://www.bmwcca.org/news/shell-v-...r-club-america

[juice23]

Hi all, I have a bone stock 2012 m3 that I bought brand new. The car is 10.5 years old, bought in Oct of 2012. Needless to say, I adore this car. I have never been able to commit to anything, except this car, and I have 0 intentions of ever getting rid of it. I have no idea why I feel this way about his car, but I do.

Here in Chicago, there have been really, really bad cold spells the last couple of years. In Sept of 2021, I had the TBA service work done after my actuators went bad. In Jan 2022, I began to have issues again with the car when the temps dropped below 0 degrees F. The car would go into limp mode and the exhaust would smell horrible. There was also a distinct smell of fuel that I never smelled before. The car would stay in limp mode until it was turned off and restarted. The colder the weather was, the longer it stayed in limp mode before returning to normal.

When Spring came around in 2022, the issue disappeared only to return recently in Dec of 2022 when the temps dropped again below 0 degrees F. I decided to take action:
1. Replaced battery thinking this was a power issue. I had never replaced the battery in the car. It was the original battery from factory.
2. I thought that solved the issue, until...
3. ... I had been out of town for a few days and had not started the car for a total of 3 days. Upon starting the car, the car just cranked, and cranked, and cranked, and then finally started, but it was a really bad idle. The car was rumbling, shaking, and exhaust was toxic. The car went into limp mode and threw codes. I immediately turned the car off thinking the engine was going to blow. I connected a code reader and the codes that the car was throwing were: 2B28 and 2B5C. These are throttle valve associated, but there is no way that my TBAs are bad given that they were just replaced.

4. I restarted the car and let it run for a minute. Then I turned it off. After a minute, I restarted and BOOM, it started normal, normal idle, no toxic exhaust, no smell of fuel.

As I write this, my car is at Performance Eurowerks getting fuel injectors and spark plugs replaced. I should be doing this work on my own but they are a good shop and they did my TBA so I'm fine with them doing it.

If anyone has any comments or input, I would appreciate those and I will update this post when I get the car back.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by juice23

Hi all, I have a bone stock 2012 m3 that I bought brand new. The car is 10.5 years old, bought in Oct of 2012. Needless to say, I adore this car. I have never been able to commit to anything, except this car, and I have 0 intentions of ever getting rid of it. I have no idea why I feel this way about his car, but I do.

Here in Chicago, there have been really, really bad cold spells the last couple of years. In Sept of 2021, I had the TBA service work done after my actuators went bad. In Jan 2022, I began to have issues again with the car when the temps dropped below 0 degrees F. The car would go into limp mode and the exhaust would smell horrible. There was also a distinct smell of fuel that I never smelled before. The car would stay in limp mode until it was turned off and restarted. The colder the weather was, the longer it stayed in limp mode before returning to normal.

When Spring came around in 2022, the issue disappeared only to return recently in Dec of 2022 when the temps dropped again below 0 degrees F. I decided to take action:
1. Replaced battery thinking this was a power issue. I had never replaced the battery in the car. It was the original battery from factory.
2. I thought that solved the issue, until...
3. ... I had been out of town for a few days and had not started the car for a total of 3 days. Upon starting the car, the car just cranked, and cranked, and cranked, and then finally started, but it was a really bad idle. The car was rumbling, shaking, and exhaust was toxic. The car went into limp mode and threw codes. I immediately turned the car off thinking the engine was going to blow. I connected a code reader and the codes that the car was throwing were: 2B28 and 2B5C. These are throttle valve associated, but there is no way that my TBAs are bad given that they were just replaced.

4. I restarted the car and let it run for a minute. Then I turned it off. After a minute, I restarted and BOOM, it started normal, normal idle, no toxic exhaust, no smell of fuel.

As I write this, my car is at Performance Eurowerks getting fuel injectors and spark plugs replaced. I should be doing this work on my own but they are a good shop and they did my TBA so I'm fine with them doing it.

If anyone has any comments or input, I would appreciate those and I will update this post when I get the car back.

2B28 - throttle valve test reset springs bank 2
2B5C - throttle valve error status bank 2
These codes 'may' also be related to the throttle position sensor: Is the car parked outside or in a garage during such low cold temperatures? Does the car have 10W60 oil in it? At low temperatures the oil thickens up considerably. Limp mode is typically triggered when a misfire is detected or the TAs are not in synch with each other between banks. When you were out of town for 3 days was the car parked outside in very cold temps? The smell of fuel is unburned fuel being sent down the exhaust and into the cats due to misfiring IMO. How old are the spark plugs? If older than 37K miles they should be replaced. Are you running Top Tier fuel (as BMW recommends). Google Top-Tier fuel to understand what it is. There's a chance the fuel tank breather valve might have stuck open (clogged) and that can cause misfires due to a lean condition at start up or after fill ups. Were there any other codes the reader found? While they're doing the spark plugs I recommend preventatively replacing the fuel tank breather valve as they seem to have a 60K miles half life (on average). I'm just trying to understand the circumstances a little better to help eliminate some variables.

[juice23]

hey, apologies for never responding back here.

The car had the injectors and spark plugs replaced. She runs and starts perfectly now.

[AKJCCM3]

Year: 2011
Miles: 61,xxx
Injector Failure symptoms: Number 8 injector stuck open
Duration driven with symptoms: a few miles before pulling over (I was on the highway)
Secondary failure: Hydrolocked and bent the crap out of the rod and beat the hell out of the piston and block/cylinder wall.
Injector failure cause or theory: I don't really have a cause for it to happen, my theory was that maybe not driving the car enough, I only drive it a few thousand miles a year if that.

This happened around the beginning of April, I was merging onto the highway and all the sudden got reduced power, increased emissions warnings so I drove slowly to the next exit, had it towed home and then to the shop. Found out it was the injector failing and causing the engine to hydrolock. All the major things have been done to the car preventatively, I just never thought about the injectors until now and definitely would have replaced those after knowing what I do now and that they can be an engine killer. As of now, the block was just sent off to get honed and sleeved and will be put back together soon. Just in time for winter fml.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by AKJCCM3

Year: 2011
Miles: 61,xxx
Injector Failure symptoms: Number 8 injector stuck open
Duration driven with symptoms: a few miles before pulling over (I was on the highway)
Secondary failure: Hydrolocked and bent the crap out of the rod and beat the hell out of the piston and block/cylinder wall.
Injector failure cause or theory: I don't really have a cause for it to happen, my theory was that maybe not driving the car enough, I only drive it a few thousand miles a year if that.

This happened around the beginning of April, I was merging onto the highway and all the sudden got reduced power, increased emissions warnings so I drove slowly to the next exit, had it towed home and then to the shop. Found out it was the injector failing and causing the engine to hydrolock. All the major things have been done to the car preventatively, I just never thought about the injectors until now and definitely would have replaced those after knowing what I do now and that they can be an engine killer. As of now, the block was just sent off to get honed and sleeved and will be put back together soon. Just in time for winter fml.

Sorry to hear that. What brand/type fuel do you normally use?

[e92dud]

Originally Posted by AKJCCM3

Year: 2011
Miles: 61,xxx
Injector Failure symptoms: Number 8 injector stuck open
Duration driven with symptoms: a few miles before pulling over (I was on the highway)
Secondary failure: Hydrolocked and bent the crap out of the rod and beat the hell out of the piston and block/cylinder wall.
Injector failure cause or theory: I don't really have a cause for it to happen, my theory was that maybe not driving the car enough, I only drive it a few thousand miles a year if that.

This happened around the beginning of April, I was merging onto the highway and all the sudden got reduced power, increased emissions warnings so I drove slowly to the next exit, had it towed home and then to the shop. Found out it was the injector failing and causing the engine to hydrolock. All the major things have been done to the car preventatively, I just never thought about the injectors until now and definitely would have replaced those after knowing what I do now and that they can be an engine killer. As of now, the block was just sent off to get honed and sleeved and will be put back together soon. Just in time for winter fml.

Are you adding any kind of fuel stabilizer or additives? My theory is the fuel is sitting too long on low mileage cars and causing injectors to stick. I add stabilizer on every fill up with mine.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by e92dud

Are you adding any kind of fuel stabilizer or additives? My theory is the fuel is sitting too long on low mileage cars and causing injectors to stick. I add stabilizer on every fill up with mine.

Add to that the effect of the ethanol in modern fuel on systems specd in the early 2000s. S85 engines are prone to the same failures and the fueling systems they’re equipped with were likely not expected to be ethanol compatible. It makes sense that since our engines are derived from the S85 that we have the same weaknesses. Garage queens sat for long months with ethanol in the tank arent a great mix on any platform.

[wyatth]

I think if one is proactively replacing injectors due to these issues and concerns, one should also consider replacing the fuel pump/filters. I've seen and heard of injectors with 100K+ that looked like new, and of injector failures shortly after replacement/refurb, so another plausible theory is that the fuel filters (in the pump) are not actually lifetime parts and eventually let debris through which clog/stick open the injectors.

I'll probably do it all around 75K. For now I'll use Techron concentrate annually and pray to the gods.

[spammysammich]

PCA guys with the engines that are particularly susceptible to bore scoring have advocated the regular use of PEA additives like Techron to help keep injectors clean. Their failure mode is basically the same as ours. Leaky or stuck open injectors causing bore wash or hydrolock compounded by the boxer layout of the engine. The most commonly complained about engine in that group was also from the same time frame as the s85/s65. Yes I get that correlation =/= causation and there are lots of other factors. I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by wyatth

I think if one is proactively replacing injectors due to these issues and concerns, one should also consider replacing the fuel pump/filters. I've seen and heard of injectors with 100K+ that looked like new, and of injector failures shortly after replacement/refurb, so another plausible theory is that the fuel filters (in the pump) are not actually lifetime parts and eventually let debris through which clog/stick open the injectors.

I'll probably do it all around 75K. For now I'll use Techron concentrate annually and pray to the gods.

NRW-Design has got an inline fuel filter coming soon.

[AKJCCM3]

Originally Posted by e92dud

Are you adding any kind of fuel stabilizer or additives? My theory is the fuel is sitting too long on low mileage cars and causing injectors to stick. I add stabilizer on every fill up with mine.

No, I wasn't adding any fuel stabilizer. I would start the car every few weeks in the winter though and let it run for 5-10 minutes. I'll be sure to start adding stabilizer in the future though.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by AKJCCM3

No, I wasn't adding any fuel stabilizer. I would start the car every few weeks in the winter though and let it run for 5-10 minutes. I'll be sure to start adding stabilizer in the future though.

That is a sure fire recipe for creating sludge and moisture in the engine. You will never get the engine warm enough in 5 minutes of idling to increase oil temp to the point where water can evaporate out. The tan colored mayo like emulsion people find under the oil cap is evidence of this. Best practice is to get the oil up to full operating temp before shutting off, not going by time.

[fuddman]

On my 2013 M3, on different starts, I get different numbers of warnings on the dashboard - sometimes several warning lights, sometimes two, sometimes 1 and sometimes none. The one that always seems to be there is the SES light. The car then posts the message "Increased emissions!" With an exclamation mark, no less - like you bad, bad boy, you're screwing up mother earth.

In any case, this got me to thinking. What does "increased emissions" mean? To me it means there exists some kind of fixed emissions baseline in the car somewhere. In addition, something is constantly calculating the emissions generated by my car and going out the exhaust.

Then, the two are constantly compared somewhere in the car. That is, my generated emissions are compared to the baseline emission and if, for example, a ratio exceeds a certain amount, the SES light goes on.

Could it be that if that emissions ratio exceeds another predetermined value the car will be thrown into limp mode?

What I'm thinking is that perhaps there is nothing really wrong with the parts in your car. And the car could go on indefinitely. Except that someone has determined you are exceeding what they believe is the acceptable amount of emissions going out your back end. Therefore you and your car are assigned the limp mode.

In other words, you're not necessarily going into the limp mode because of a parts malfunction. But, for sure, you're going into the limp mode because you are exceeding an emissions standard programmed in the car.

I'm suggesting that when you begin to diagnose a limp mode, you start by assuming the computer (ECU?) in your car gave you the limp mode because of some emissions related problem it senses. Then look at the codes, especially look for the SES warning light.

[Jon H]

Originally Posted by ProjektAutoScott

Bosch 62418. I got all of mine for $15 a piece from newparts.com, just do it.

Man times have changed in a short few years. ~$49 each at FCP Euro.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by ProjektAutoScott

I got all of mine for $15 a piece from newparts.com, just do it.

ProjektAutoScott wait what?!?
$15 for an OEM replacement [ie Bosch]...when did you purchase?

Best 'discounted' to-date pricing; ~$48ea [newparts.com, FCPEuro]
Typically seein' ~$80ea