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      07-11-2007, 08:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MI6 View Post
+1 "Autolies" is more known for sexy pics of car show girls than true hardcore automotive facts..........

That being said the 444bhp V8 M3GTR ate up the Porsches back in the 2001
IMSA so who's to say it won't happen again........for a price.....
I owned my E46 back when the bimmers ate up the Porsches, but we have to relunctantly admit that BMW did "kind of" cheat. Nonetheless, it was quite an accomplishment for BMW.
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      07-11-2007, 08:32 AM   #24
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nice ppt, but we need hard evidence not just someone saying it thatit beats the 911 but if it does.....:
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      07-11-2007, 08:42 AM   #25
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6:49 - BMW M3-GTR(race version), ~470PS/1100kg, Hans-Joachim Stuck
6:55 - Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg, Michael Vergers (28 Sep 2005)
7:11 - McLaren F1 (road car), 627 PS/1141 kg, Mika Häkkinen, (11/96)
7:12 - Radical SR3 Turbo, 320 PS/500 kg (test drive 07/03)
7:14 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 398 PS/760 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 11/05)
7:15 - Edo Porsche 996 GT2 RS, 542 PS/1284 kg, de:Patrick Simon (sport auto 09/05)
7:18 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 370 PS/670 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 12/04)
7:28 - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/1475 kg, Walter Röhrl, (Autobild 07/04)
7.32 - Porsche Carrera GT (Sport Auto Trophy, driven by Horst von Saurma)
7.32 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 PS/1432 kg (Gemballa)
7:33 - Pagani Zonda F, 602 PS/1230 kg (sport auto 05/06)
7:34 - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto), Oct 17-18 2005
7:40 - Bugatti Veyron 16.4, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40 - Porsche 997 Turbo 480PS/1565 kg (Walter Röhrl)
7:41 - Manthey Porsche GT3 M410, 413 PS/1320 kg (160.868 km/h) (Autobild 07/04)
7:42 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440 kg, Walter Röhrl (Automobil 05/06)
7:42 - Ford GT, 550 PS/1521 kg (as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:42.9-Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06, 512 PS/1419 kg, Jan Magnussen, 2005/06/23 (news release, pictures)
7:43 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 02)
7:44 - Pagani Zonda S 550 PS/1280 kg (sport auto 02/05)
7:46 - Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/01)
7:47 - Porsche 996 GT3 RS (sport tyres)[citation needed]
7:47 - Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 E-gear (sport tyres) (sport auto 01/07)
7:48 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440 kg (sport auto 07/06)
7:50 - Westfield Megabusa, 180 PS/440 kg[citation needed]
7:50 - Lamborghini Murcielago, (sport auto 06/02)
7:50 - BMW M3 E46 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
7:50 - BMW X5 E53 LM, McLaren F1-engine 750 bhp, Hans-Joachim Stuck (EVO magazine 08/2005)
7:52 - Porsche 996 GT3 (381 hp)[citation needed]
7:52 - Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:52 - Lamborghini Gallardo[citation needed]
7:54 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R34[citation needed]
7:55 - Caterham R500 Superlight, 233 PS/460 kg, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/2000)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06)
7:56 - Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
7:56 - Honda NSX-R (NA2), 280 PS/31kgm/1270 kg, Incomplete lap by 30 metres, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best MOTORing 08/02)
7:56 - Porsche 996 Turbo (sport auto 06/00)
7:56 - Ferrari 360 stradale (sport tyres) (sport auto 02/04)
7:56 - Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black Series (fastest AMG test engineer)
7:57 - Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 hp, racing suspension)[citation needed]
7:59 - Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Performance”, Walter Röhrl, (WHEELS 06/04)
7:59 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, Dirk Schoymans, unknown modifications (Autocar magazine 1997)
7:59 - Dodge Viper SRT-10 (11/05) Motor Trend
7:59 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z51,405 PS/1481 kg, driver Dave Hill (manufacturer claim)
7:59 - Subaru Impreza Sti Spec-C (Prototype), 280 PS/1370 kg (Subaru News 2004 [1])
8:01 - Bugatti EB 110 Supersport, 610 PS/1410 kg[citation needed]
8:01 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, 280 PS/37.5 kgf·m/1540 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series [The R33 GT-R])
8:03 - Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005), 380 bhp/1570 kg (sport auto 10/05)
8:03 - Porsche 911 GT3, 360 PS/1391 kg (sport auto 08/99)
8:03 - Honda NSX-R (NA1), 280 PS/30 kgf·m/1230 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best MOTORing 02/06)
8:06 - Subaru WRX STi Spec-C prototype, 280 PS/42 kgf·m/1370 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring International video "NISMO Beast Unleashed")
8:07 - Ferrari 550[citation needed]
8:09 - Lamborghini Diablo SV[citation needed]
8:09 - Ferrari 360 Modena[citation needed]
8:09 - BMW M6 E63 (sport tyres) [limited to 259 km/h] (sport auto 12/05)
8:09 - Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467 kg, sport tires, suspension modification (sport auto 08/02)
8:10 - Chrysler Viper GTS (Sport Auto 10/97)
8:11 - Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR prototype, 280 PS/40.8 kgf·m/1420 kg, Takayuki Kinoshita (Best Motoring International video "Carrera Invasion")
8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 hp version)[citation needed]
8:13 - BMW M5 E60, 507 PS (sport auto 12/04)
8:13 - Ferrari 355 GTB (Sport Auto 10/1994)
8:15 - BMW Z8 E52, 400 hp[citation needed]
8:17 - Porsche 996 C2[citation needed]
8:22 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R32, 280 PS/36 kgf·m/1430 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series [The R32 GT-R])
8:22 - BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)
8:22 - BMW M Coupe E36/7, 321 PS/1445 kg (sport auto 10/98)
8:22 - Mercedes CLK 63 AMG (fastest AMG test engineer)
8:24 - Subaru Impreza WRX STI, sport tires (Sport Auto 05/04)
8:25 - Jaguar XKR (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Porsche Cayman S (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Audi RS4 375 hp[citation needed]
8:24 - Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VI, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/99)
8:25 - Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VII, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/02)
8:26 - BMW 335i E92 Coupe, 300 hp (Sport Auto)
8:26 - Nissan 350Z (Sport Auto 10/03)
8:28 - Porsche 911 Carrera (993) (Sport Auto 07/97)
8:28 - BMW M5 E39 (previous model), 400 hp[citation needed]
8:32 - Porsche Boxster S (Sport Auto 12/99)
8.34 - BMW Sauber F1.06 Formula One car, Nick Heidfeld, April 28 2007[1]
8:35 - BMW M3 E36 Coupe, 321 hp[citation needed]
8:36 - Opel Astra OPC, 240 PS/1355 kg, Manuel Reuter (mfr., Oct 2005), sport compact record holder
8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG[citation needed]
8:38 - Honda NSX (sport auto, 08/97)
8:39 - Honda S2000 (sport auto 01/00)
8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic, 344 PS/1505 kg (sport auto 07/97) (Crash involving civilian later in the lap)
8:42 - Audi S4 265 hp[citation needed]
8:42 - Lotus Exige, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/00)
8:47 - Honda Civic Type-R (Sport Auto 11/01)
8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe[citation needed]
8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430[citation needed]
9:12 - Jaguar S-Type Diesel driven by Sabine Schmitz for an episode of Top Gear (Series 5, Episode 5)
9:59 - Jaguar S-Type Diesel driven by Jeremy Clarkson for an episode of Top Gear (Series 5, Episode 5)
10:08 - Ford Transit driven by Sabine Schmitz for an episode of Top Gear (Series 6, episode 7; Bridge to Gantry within tourist traffic)

7.59 according to this. Look at the Porsche GT3 at 8.03.
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      07-11-2007, 09:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st View Post
6:49 - BMW M3-GTR(race version), ~470PS/1100kg, Hans-Joachim Stuck
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      07-11-2007, 10:00 AM   #27
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Not Likely

Sorry guys, I do not think the M3 will beat the C2S around the ring. I would love to be wrong, though!
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      07-11-2007, 10:05 AM   #28
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BMW's brochoure compares the M to the standard Carrera and not S (they even put pictures of the 911 in there!), if the car beats the S why would they not officially compare it to S?
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      07-11-2007, 10:06 AM   #29
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the 997S has also been around since 2005, meaning shortly into the upcoming M3's lifecycle there will be a new generation 911 to deal with, and I doubt it's going to be slower than the current one.
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      07-11-2007, 10:11 AM   #30
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A fine point

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002 Tii View Post
BMW's brochoure compares the M to the standard Carrera and not S (they even put pictures of the 911 in there!), if the car beats the S why would they not officially compare it to S?
And I have asked myself the same question repeatedly and don't have a good answer. Perhaps they just mean 911 in general be it 4, 4S, convertible, S, etc.?

To those of you that don't think the M3 can beat the 8:05 (or 7:59) time stop saying "I don't think it can." with no evidence. WHY don't you think it can. Perhaps because you love P-cars, or you don't like BMWs, that aint a reason. I think it can because BMW is known for good balanced and great handling cars, because the new M3 has a fantastic powerful V8 that revs through the roof and most importanly because the power to weight ratio is substantially better than the S!
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      07-11-2007, 12:26 PM   #31
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another time for m5 in nurburging
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg
reference in below
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....1F288808EB&p=0


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix 21st View Post
6:49 - BMW M3-GTR(race version), ~470PS/1100kg, Hans-Joachim Stuck
6:55 - Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg, Michael Vergers (28 Sep 2005)
7:11 - McLaren F1 (road car), 627 PS/1141 kg, Mika Häkkinen, (11/96)
7:12 - Radical SR3 Turbo, 320 PS/500 kg (test drive 07/03)
7:14 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 398 PS/760 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 11/05)
7:15 - Edo Porsche 996 GT2 RS, 542 PS/1284 kg, de:Patrick Simon (sport auto 09/05)
7:18 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 370 PS/670 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 12/04)
7:28 - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/1475 kg, Walter Röhrl, (Autobild 07/04)
7.32 - Porsche Carrera GT (Sport Auto Trophy, driven by Horst von Saurma)
7.32 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 PS/1432 kg (Gemballa)
7:33 - Pagani Zonda F, 602 PS/1230 kg (sport auto 05/06)
7:34 - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto), Oct 17-18 2005
7:40 - Bugatti Veyron 16.4, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40 - Porsche 997 Turbo 480PS/1565 kg (Walter Röhrl)
7:41 - Manthey Porsche GT3 M410, 413 PS/1320 kg (160.868 km/h) (Autobild 07/04)
7:42 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440 kg, Walter Röhrl (Automobil 05/06)
7:42 - Ford GT, 550 PS/1521 kg (as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:42.9-Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06, 512 PS/1419 kg, Jan Magnussen, 2005/06/23 (news release, pictures)
7:43 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 02)
7:44 - Pagani Zonda S 550 PS/1280 kg (sport auto 02/05)
7:46 - Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/01)
7:47 - Porsche 996 GT3 RS (sport tyres)[citation needed]
7:47 - Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 E-gear (sport tyres) (sport auto 01/07)
7:48 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440 kg (sport auto 07/06)
7:50 - Westfield Megabusa, 180 PS/440 kg[citation needed]
7:50 - Lamborghini Murcielago, (sport auto 06/02)
7:50 - BMW M3 E46 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
7:50 - BMW X5 E53 LM, McLaren F1-engine 750 bhp, Hans-Joachim Stuck (EVO magazine 08/2005)
7:52 - Porsche 996 GT3 (381 hp)[citation needed]
7:52 - Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:52 - Lamborghini Gallardo[citation needed]
7:54 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R34[citation needed]
7:55 - Caterham R500 Superlight, 233 PS/460 kg, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/2000)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06)
7:56 - Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
7:56 - Honda NSX-R (NA2), 280 PS/31kgm/1270 kg, Incomplete lap by 30 metres, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best MOTORing 08/02)
7:56 - Porsche 996 Turbo (sport auto 06/00)
7:56 - Ferrari 360 stradale (sport tyres) (sport auto 02/04)
7:56 - Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black Series (fastest AMG test engineer)
7:57 - Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 hp, racing suspension)[citation needed]
7:59 - Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Performance”, Walter Röhrl, (WHEELS 06/04)
7:59 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, Dirk Schoymans, unknown modifications (Autocar magazine 1997)
7:59 - Dodge Viper SRT-10 (11/05) Motor Trend
7:59 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z51,405 PS/1481 kg, driver Dave Hill (manufacturer claim)
7:59 - Subaru Impreza Sti Spec-C (Prototype), 280 PS/1370 kg (Subaru News 2004 [1])
8:01 - Bugatti EB 110 Supersport, 610 PS/1410 kg[citation needed]
8:01 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, 280 PS/37.5 kgf·m/1540 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series [The R33 GT-R])
8:03 - Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005), 380 bhp/1570 kg (sport auto 10/05)
8:03 - Porsche 911 GT3, 360 PS/1391 kg (sport auto 08/99)
8:03 - Honda NSX-R (NA1), 280 PS/30 kgf·m/1230 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best MOTORing 02/06)
8:06 - Subaru WRX STi Spec-C prototype, 280 PS/42 kgf·m/1370 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring International video "NISMO Beast Unleashed")
8:07 - Ferrari 550[citation needed]
8:09 - Lamborghini Diablo SV[citation needed]
8:09 - Ferrari 360 Modena[citation needed]
8:09 - BMW M6 E63 (sport tyres) [limited to 259 km/h] (sport auto 12/05)
8:09 - Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467 kg, sport tires, suspension modification (sport auto 08/02)
8:10 - Chrysler Viper GTS (Sport Auto 10/97)
8:11 - Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR prototype, 280 PS/40.8 kgf·m/1420 kg, Takayuki Kinoshita (Best Motoring International video "Carrera Invasion")
8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 hp version)[citation needed]
8:13 - BMW M5 E60, 507 PS (sport auto 12/04)
8:13 - Ferrari 355 GTB (Sport Auto 10/1994)
8:15 - BMW Z8 E52, 400 hp[citation needed]
8:17 - Porsche 996 C2[citation needed]
8:22 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R32, 280 PS/36 kgf·m/1430 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series [The R32 GT-R])
8:22 - BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)
8:22 - BMW M Coupe E36/7, 321 PS/1445 kg (sport auto 10/98)
8:22 - Mercedes CLK 63 AMG (fastest AMG test engineer)
8:24 - Subaru Impreza WRX STI, sport tires (Sport Auto 05/04)
8:25 - Jaguar XKR (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Porsche Cayman S (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Audi RS4 375 hp[citation needed]
8:24 - Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VI, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/99)
8:25 - Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VII, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/02)
8:26 - BMW 335i E92 Coupe, 300 hp (Sport Auto)
8:26 - Nissan 350Z (Sport Auto 10/03)
8:28 - Porsche 911 Carrera (993) (Sport Auto 07/97)
8:28 - BMW M5 E39 (previous model), 400 hp[citation needed]
8:32 - Porsche Boxster S (Sport Auto 12/99)
8.34 - BMW Sauber F1.06 Formula One car, Nick Heidfeld, April 28 2007[1]
8:35 - BMW M3 E36 Coupe, 321 hp[citation needed]
8:36 - Opel Astra OPC, 240 PS/1355 kg, Manuel Reuter (mfr., Oct 2005), sport compact record holder
8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG[citation needed]
8:38 - Honda NSX (sport auto, 08/97)
8:39 - Honda S2000 (sport auto 01/00)
8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic, 344 PS/1505 kg (sport auto 07/97) (Crash involving civilian later in the lap)
8:42 - Audi S4 265 hp[citation needed]
8:42 - Lotus Exige, sport tires (Sport Auto 11/00)
8:47 - Honda Civic Type-R (Sport Auto 11/01)
8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe[citation needed]
8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430[citation needed]
9:12 - Jaguar S-Type Diesel driven by Sabine Schmitz for an episode of Top Gear (Series 5, Episode 5)
9:59 - Jaguar S-Type Diesel driven by Jeremy Clarkson for an episode of Top Gear (Series 5, Episode 5)
10:08 - Ford Transit driven by Sabine Schmitz for an episode of Top Gear (Series 6, episode 7; Bridge to Gantry within tourist traffic)

7.59 according to this. Look at the Porsche GT3 at 8.03.
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      07-11-2007, 12:59 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kite View Post
another time for m5 in nurburging
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg
reference in below
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....1F288808EB&p=0
Kite, the link doesn't work, do you have another?

Thanks.
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      07-11-2007, 01:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
And I have asked myself the same question repeatedly and don't have a good answer. Perhaps they just mean 911 in general be it 4, 4S, convertible, S, etc.?

To those of you that don't think the M3 can beat the 8:05 (or 7:59) time stop saying "I don't think it can." with no evidence. WHY don't you think it can. Perhaps because you love P-cars, or you don't like BMWs, that aint a reason. I think it can because BMW is known for good balanced and great handling cars, because the new M3 has a fantastic powerful V8 that revs through the roof and most importanly because the power to weight ratio is substantially better than the S!
I haved owned two E46 M3's and several variants of the 911/997 family and LOVE them all. I am not biased either way, but I will say with great conviction: You get what you pay for. Whether or not, what you pay is worth it to you is a subjective matter.

Although the power to weight ratio advantage currently (marginally) goes to the new M, the advantage will be short lived with Porsche's pending power bump. Not to mention-like someone else has posted-the 998 or whatever moniker, will crush those numbers. The 997's successor will likely be out in the middle of the M's lifespan. (Imagine GT3 like numbers in a 997S type street chassis with more torgue than a GT3.) I'm getting exited thinking about it. The power hike will put the ratio on par with the M. And, of course, need we forget; try running more than one or two laps on the ring and see which track times worsen because of fading brakes. Chripe, I need to get to my Porsche dealer and get on another list!

M3=Sub 7.59, LO F-ing L!
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      07-11-2007, 01:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I haved owned two E46 M3's and several variants of the 911/997 family and LOVE them all. I am not biased either way, but I will say with great conviction: You get what you pay for. Whether or not, what you pay is worth it to you is a subjective matter.

Although the power to weight ratio advantage currently (marginally) goes to the new M, the advantage will be short lived with Porsche's pending power bump. Not to mention-like someone else has posted-the 998 or whatever moniker, will crush those numbers. The 997's successor will likely be out in the middle of the M's lifespan. (Imagine GT3 like numbers in a 997S type street chassis with more torgue than a GT3.) I'm getting exited thinking about it. The power hike will put the ratio on par with the M. And, of course, need we forget; try running more than one or two laps on the ring and see which track times worsen because of fading brakes. Chripe, I need to get to my Porsche dealer and get on another list!

M3=Sub 7.59, LO F-ing L!
Devo, I don't disagree with what you have to say......but the 911 is in serious trouble. With Ferdinand Piech unleashing the R8, you can expect dedicated sports cars in the same price band as the 911 and 911 Turbo variants in the coming years. Porsche can only work around the rear-engine limitations for so long.... If they don't get out of this architecture, they are going to lose to future dedicated German sportscars.

After speaking to a source, the BMW Z10 will be out in 2010, it will have 550-590 hp and will weigh <3300 pounds..... I will be ordering one.... This will be more than competitive with a GT2.
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      07-11-2007, 02:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Devo, I don't disagree with what you have to say......but the 911 is in serious trouble. With Ferdinand Piech unleashing the R8, you can expect dedicated sports cars in the same price band as the 911 and 911 Turbo variants in the coming years. Porsche can only work around the rear-engine limitations for so long.... If they don't get out of this architecture, they are going to lose to future dedicated German sportscars.

After speaking to a source, the BMW Z10 will be out in 2010, it will have 550-590 hp and will weigh <3300 pounds..... I will be ordering one.... This will be more than competitive with a GT2.
Nor do I disagree with you for the most part, but I don't feel that the R8 (even the rumored bgger engine variety) is competitve in their respective catagories; i.e. 997C4S v. R8 or 997TT v. R10 or whatever, due to the price points. I like the R8's capabilties, but it's $20 k more than a C4S and doesn't perform much better on the STREET. And, to matters worse, buy the C2S, save another $8k and do without AWD. Audi should introduce the R series cars at a lower price or give them more power.

Yes, you are dead on though re: Porsche. They have gone far enough with the rear engine icon. Give the Cayman S 420 ponies and a limited diff. It would be all the car I'd ever need.
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      07-11-2007, 02:56 PM   #36
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      07-11-2007, 03:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
And I have asked myself the same question repeatedly and don't have a good answer. Perhaps they just mean 911 in general be it 4, 4S, convertible, S, etc.?

To those of you that don't think the M3 can beat the 8:05 (or 7:59) time stop saying "I don't think it can." with no evidence. WHY don't you think it can. Perhaps because you love P-cars, or you don't like BMWs, that aint a reason. I think it can because BMW is known for good balanced and great handling cars, because the new M3 has a fantastic powerful V8 that revs through the roof and most importanly because the power to weight ratio is substantially better than the S!
They have given the specs on the Carrera so there is no confusion in regards to the model.
For nearly 30 years now, we have been hearing about the "limitations of the 911" and the car keeps getting better and the sales stronger, GT3 is the bench mark for all performance cars out there. The 911 single handedly has carried Porsche thru some serious troubled times (914-924-944-928). Today not only is Porsche the only independent car manufacturer but a majority share holder in Audi!
R8 is great but more expensive than 911, M3 will probably beat 911 numbers, but personally I don't think it will hurt Porsche seriously. Corvette has been putting up better numbers than 911 consistantly but is unable to take away market share. The freaking thing has become a myth
BTW, I think the M3 is a great car so please no attackes about hating, etc....
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      07-11-2007, 03:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
From the other thread;

8:05 --- 152.907 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, 355PS/1461kg (sport auto 05/05),


Not sure if this is still the accurate time.


er... What other thread... ?

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      07-11-2007, 03:54 PM   #39
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They have given the specs on the Carrera so there is no confusion in regards to the model.
For nearly 30 years now, we have been hearing about the "limitations of the 911" and the car keeps getting better and the sales stronger, GT3 is the bench mark for all performance cars out there. The 911 single handedly has carried Porsche thru some serious troubled times (914-924-944-928). Today not only is Porsche the only independent car manufacturer but a majority share holder in Audi!
R8 is great but more expensive than 911, M3 will probably beat 911 numbers, but personally I don't think it will hurt Porsche seriously. Corvette has been putting up better numbers than 911 consistantly but is unable to take away market share. The freaking thing has become a myth
BTW, I think the M3 is a great car so please no attackes about hating, etc....

To be plain, the 911 has never really had competition.... The Viper / Vette are not competition. The rumor is MB / BMW / VW left Porsche alone in the 911 category to ensure that Germany had a viable sportscar manufacturer.

Fernidand Piech (who married Ferry Porsche's daughter and the former Porsche motorsports director) opened up a can of worms with the R8. The R8 (despite the price difference) is a purebred German sportscar and a direct competitor to the 911. BMW & MB cannot allow Audi & Porsche to play in this space alone......thus the BMW Z10.

Rumor is the Z10 is greenlighted for production whereas the Z9 has not yet been approved. This is how serious BMW is going to take the sportscar category.

Techically, the R8 beats the 911 (specially if you get rid of the silly Quattro)..... 911's have been crushed at the track by Vipers and Vettes..... The 911's are not around because of technical reasons....it has had very little competition until now.
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      07-11-2007, 04:32 PM   #40
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T Bone, I agree entirely. Well, maybe not entirely
I seriously wonder if in todays or yesterdays cut throat corporate world, there is such a thing as a " gentlemen’s agreement" for Benz and BMW to lay off Porsche and let me explain why; Porsche with the 928 made an assult on 500 SL market segment but lost, why would Benz not come want to do the same? The AMG SL is as close to 911 that benz will get while keeping their philosophy.
In the 80 s BMW introduced the M635, with it's direct competitor being the 911 and tried a second time with the flop; Z10, Z8 or whatever their two seater M5 engine based model was called. Porsche will be introducing a GT four seater in a couple of years that will go head to head with Benz and BMW.
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      07-11-2007, 07:58 PM   #41
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It is difficult to predict what will happen to the 911. The car does indeed keep on getting better and better despite the rear engine layout. While it is true that mid-engine cars like the R8 will threaten its performance, at least on paper, the 911 customers might not necessarily care too much about that kind of performance (let's face it, any car that does the ring for less than 8:30 probably feels the same from a performance perspective to your average wealthy sports car consumer who will redline the engine most likely by accident only). People buy 911s for many other reasons as well, and it remains to be seen if that is a generational issue, and if the generation which will mature in 10-20 years will be chasing after the same memories and images. (Most of us grew up playing with 911 toys and so on; the 911 brand has been established in our minds way before we were 10.) Regardless, Porsche seems to recognize this ambugity as one can say it is hedging its position by developing cars like the Cayman, which could clearly beat the 911 on lap times if equipped with a comparable engine. It also remains to be seen where the M3 will fit in, but its brand image is too closely associated with the other 3-series cars for it to be a real threat for the 911 just yet.
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      07-11-2007, 08:08 PM   #42
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It is difficult to predict what will happen to the 911. The car does indeed keep on getting better and better despite the rear engine layout. While it is true that mid-engine cars like the R8 will threaten its performance, at least on paper, the 911 customers might not necessarily care too much about that kind of performance (let's face it, any car that does the ring for less than 8:30 probably feels the same from a performance perspective to your average wealthy sports car consumer who will redline the engine most likely by accident only). People buy 911s for many other reasons as well, and it remains to be seen if that is a generational issue, and if the generation which will mature in 10-20 years will be chasing after the same memories and images. (Most of us grew up playing with 911 toys and so on; the 911 brand has been established in our minds way before we were 10.) Regardless, Porsche seems to recognize this ambugity as one can say it is hedging its position by developing cars like the Caymen, which could clearly beat the 911 on lap times if equipped with a comparable engine. It also remains to be seen where the M3 will fit in, but its brand image is too closely associated with the other 3-series cars for it to be a real threat for the 911 just yet.


The 911 has its roots in the Beetle which was created by Porsche when commissioned by Hitler....it is old, with the engine in the wrong place and not particularly safe (would you rather get T-boned in an M3 or 911?)

The 911's are iconic because they have been around since the 1960s.... The have always performed well...but if Audi / BMW / MB start doing dedicated sportscars and beat the 911s....kids start wanting a Z10 or an R8 etc... The die hard 911 fans will die off.

Competition is good. When BMW / Audi lights a fire underneath Porsche's ass....I look forward to their reaction.


BTW, have you guys seen the Panamera? Big pig.... Porsche needs to reinvent its product line.
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      07-11-2007, 08:12 PM   #43
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I haved owned two E46 M3's and several variants of the 911/997 family and LOVE them all. I am not biased either way, but I will say with great conviction: You get what you pay for. Whether or not, what you pay is worth it to you is a subjective matter.

Although the power to weight ratio advantage currently (marginally) goes to the new M, the advantage will be short lived with Porsche's pending power bump. Not to mention-like someone else has posted-the 998 or whatever moniker, will crush those numbers. The 997's successor will likely be out in the middle of the M's lifespan. (Imagine GT3 like numbers in a 997S type street chassis with more torgue than a GT3.) I'm getting exited thinking about it. The power hike will put the ratio on par with the M. And, of course, need we forget; try running more than one or two laps on the ring and see which track times worsen because of fading brakes. Chripe, I need to get to my Porsche dealer and get on another list!

M3=Sub 7.59, LO F-ing L!
1. OK well the 2014 M3 is going to cream the 2012 top of the line 911 variant...and my dad can beat up your dad...

2. The jury is not in on the brakes of the new car yet. BMW always torture tests on the ring so the problems with the E46 M3 brakes was odd. My brakes on my E36 M3 both in stock form and slightly upgraded have always been phenomenal. I have heard they really put some effort into brake cooling and the brakes in general on this car. I don't think what we have heard about brakes in the mini-reviews yet is sufficient to say the car has poor brakes. As you probably saw in my other post from 100km/h - 0 the new M3 does out brake the 911 AND Cayman S!

3. I love P-cars so don't call me a hater but you ABSOLUTELY do not get what you pay for with a Porsche. They have THE HIGHEST profit margin of any of the major manufcturers (ref). I'm sure you know what that means, you are not paying for the car itself, the engineering, marketing, tesing, R&D; you are paying the premium becuase they have a name.

4. Was there some reasoning in your post as to why the M3 can't/won't beat the S on the ring? If so I missed it.

By the way, if I could stomach or justify the price, I'd have a GT3 in my garage as well....
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      07-11-2007, 08:15 PM   #44
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JEEZ............an X5 did it in 7.50!!!!! Granted that's with a much more powerful engine but that is AMAZING!!!

Any idea how an X5 can beat the M5 and M6?????
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