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      12-11-2009, 05:18 PM   #1
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The M Division sells its soul

The turbo powered M5 will likely have the same same basic motor as the turbo powered X6M yacht. The prosecution rests its case.

Anyone who has followed the M Division for more than a few years knows unequivocally the soul of the M car is its high revving normally aspirated motor. These motors have been considered engineering masterpieces, even by BMW critics.

I have been a member of this forum since 07. Prior to that, I followed the the discussion here consistently in silence. If you want to see an interesting phenomena, just read what was said on the forum by the same people, even a year ago, in the turbos vs normally aspirated debate. You will see even a more profound change on this debate going back two years or more. A drastic change of heart, shall we say, thanks in part to the marketing genius of BMW and the blindness of the BMW cult who feed at its trough.

Those of us not persuaded by BMW's slick marketing are now having to downgrade to Porsche, where naturally aspirated high revving motors are still appreciated.

This reminds me of the luxury watch market. The quartz movement came out and most every one jumped on its band wagon due to its accuracy and cost while abandoning the expensive, labor and R&D intensive in house movement. Yet years later, watches with quartz movements are, shall we say a dime a dozen and worthless. A watch with an in house movement today is a highly valued asset that will be passed on as a heirloom to future generations.

Those who have been here awhile know I am a fan of the turbo charged 335, given its price point to performance ratio. It is amusing to still see M3 fans vehemently argue with 335 owners over who's car is faster. The reason threatened M3 owners reacted so negatively was because the performance numbers are remarkably close, given the price gap and of course because the 335's power is delivered through those lame engineering challenged turbo chargers just like the GT-R. No mystery as to why the 335 crowd wanted to challenge the M3 owners or why M3 owners gobbled up the 335 wannabe's bait, hook line and sinker.

The S65 is simply the finest racing motor available in it's price range. Given the nature of the beast, I don't understand M3 owners complaints about its "lack of torque." The torque curve is as flat as a table top. Those who bought the M3 and are unhappy, didn't do their do diligence beforehand or do not appreciate the treasure that lies beneath.
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Last edited by ruff; 12-11-2009 at 08:35 PM..
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      12-11-2009, 05:21 PM   #2
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Downgrade to Porsche?......A Porsche is anything but a downgrade. If anything it's an upgrade.
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      12-11-2009, 05:25 PM   #3
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Blame the greenies and the safety Nazis
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      12-11-2009, 05:30 PM   #4
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I knew it would have the same engine... BMW just wants to cut costs. Kind of like how they just derived the 4.0L V8 from the 5.0L V10.
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      12-11-2009, 05:40 PM   #5
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I don't know whether your last paragraph was directed at me or not but I will address it as so anyway.

The M3 is a fine engine and I have said this on numerous occasions but it's not the best engine for road use and everyday driving which is generally conducted of part throttle and at low revs in higher gears.

I also argue that BMW's previous marketing has been to good for it's own good because it has convinced the faithful for years that N/A and high revs is the only way to produce the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. You simply believe that the M5 will get the X5/6M engine unmodified which I highly doubt myself because both cars serve difference purposes.

Would it not be better to see what the next few months bring because writing off M-Division.
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      12-11-2009, 05:43 PM   #6
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do i take this as proof you won't be buying the next M3 or M5?
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      12-11-2009, 05:47 PM   #7
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As easy as it is to make FI power, I would've loved to have seen a N/A progression of the S85, maybe punched out to 5.5L keeping the same redline and usable powerband, I am a dyed in the wool 4v N/A lover however. Same logic applies to my ideal S65 replacement, a few more inches while keeping the revs.

With that being said there is no denying TT power/torque, but I see nothing special/M about a shared 4.4L TT V8 (5 series, 7 series, X5, X6, M5, M6) powerplant, even if it does make ~600HP in stock form.

I will also admit that if BMW gave me the 6.0L DI 4v TT V12 from the 760 I would take it
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      12-11-2009, 06:01 PM   #8
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The future M Engines will be great

I for one think BMW won't let people down.

The next gen M5/M6 will use a modified version of the X5M and X6M engine. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The new 5 series engine lineup already paved the way for the next 3 series. A straight 6 single turbo will be the top end 3 series engine. The M3 will get a turbo V-6 based on the X5M/X6M engine, probably twin turbo and that will be the unique quality the M3 will have...being V-6 vs Inline.

It's not that hard to predict but hell, we can all be wrong and BMW will use electric motors and a bio diesel engine

One thing is sure, it will drive great.
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      12-11-2009, 06:14 PM   #9
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Hi ruff. How's the Cayman S treating you?
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      12-11-2009, 06:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Hi ruff. How's the Cayman S treating you?
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      12-11-2009, 06:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
The turbo powered M5 will likely have the same same basic motor as the turbo powered X6M yacht. The prosecution rests its case.

Anyone who has followed the M Division for more than a few years knows unequivocally the soul of the M car is it's high revving normally aspirated motor. These motors have been considered engineering masterpieces, even by BMW critics.

I have been a member of this forum since 07. Prior to that, I followed the the discussion here consistently in silence. If you want to see an interesting phenomena, just read what was said on the forum by the same people, even a year ago, in the turbos vs normally aspirated debate. You will see even a more profound change on this debate going back two years or more. A drastic change of heart, shall we say, thanks in part to the marketing genius of BMW and the blindness of the BMW cult who feed at its trough.

Those of us not persuaded by BMW's slick marketing are now having to downgrade to Porsche, where naturally aspirated high revving motors are still appreciated.

This reminds me of the luxury watch market. The quartz movement came out and most every one jumped on it's band wagon due to its accuracy and cost while abandoning the expensive, labor and R&D intensive in house movement. Yet years later, watches with quartz movements are, shall we say a dime a dozen and worthless. A watch with an in house movement today is a highly valued asset that will be passed on as a heirloom to future generations.

Those who have been here awhile know I am a fan of the turbo charged 335, given it's price point to performance ratio. It is amusing to still see M3 fans vehemently argue with 335 owners over who's car is faster. The reason threatened M3 owners reacted so negatively was because the performance numbers are remarkably close, given the price gap and of course because the 335's power is delivered through those lame engineering challenged turbo chargers just like the GT-R. No mystery as to why the 335 crowd wanted to challenge the M3 owners or why M3 owners gobbled up the 335 wannabe's bait, hook line and sinker.

The S65 is simply the finest racing motor available in it's price range. Given the nature of the beast, I don't understand M3 owners complaints about it's "lack of torque." The torque curve is as flat as a table top. Those who bought the M3 and are unhappy, didn't do their do diligence beforehand or do not appreciate the treasure that lies beneath.
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      12-11-2009, 06:24 PM   #12
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well, i've been an NA engine guy my whole life, but i think a lot of "purists" are just jumping the gun too much. as much as we want BMW to stick to NA, we could see changes coming, i6 to v8. also to me elec. sevo steering isn't too desired in the M, but we have it and live with it.
we should just wait and see as the new m motor would be a gem of its own, if BMW doesn't drop the ball, which i doubt they would
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      12-11-2009, 06:24 PM   #13
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Stir that pot baby, stir it good.



One can appreciate the end of life of the M division engines as we know them today while not adopting the ruff doom and gloom. I am quite glad to own the last of an era. Steve Dinan (see my other recent post on this) spoke of this as well and compared what is happening now to what happened in the early 70s. His plan is to buy an SMG M6, put his stroker kit on it, drain the fluids and prep and store the car.

Anyway, one can appreciate what they have while still having the confidence the BMW M can and will produce EXACTLY what they always have. Reasonably priced sporty cars with a good mixture of German quality and engineering and one that combines luxury with very high straight line and track performance. Why are you so darn positive that the new M cars WILL disappoint? I'm resolutely positive they won't. And don't you dare labe me nor that sentiment fanboy, that is simply known by being even remotely clued in to BMW M history and its achievements. Isn't the experience and the drive ultimately more important than how it is achieved?

Do I personally prefer NA power or FI, sure. But the 335i does a good job of making me more open to FI. BMWs turbo technology both in the 335i and X6M can hardly be classified as "lame engineering". That's is simply name calling. Check out the X6M intake design and turbo system here and then reply when you are more informed.

Will the next gen M cars be lighter than those of today - YES. And that should please you personally above many others.

Will the next gen M cars be much less damaging to the environment? Yes and this is obviously a huge issue for Governments, for manufacturers and for any good citizen of this precious world.

Stir that pot baby, stir away...
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      12-11-2009, 06:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Blame the greenies and the safety Nazis
I think it has more to do with cost cutting personally. The cost to keep producting better and better NA engines is far more than producing FI.
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      12-11-2009, 06:30 PM   #15
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What the big deal?? BTW, anyone who follows the industry has known about this for a few months. My pops is on the list for one of the first in Houston, I'll let you know how f**king sweet the new M5s are


Oh and the M division officially sold its soul when the X5/6Ms were announced, so what
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      12-11-2009, 06:30 PM   #16
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Get over it. If you don't like BMW's offerings then go elsewhere. I don't see the issue. Talk with your money.
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      12-11-2009, 06:37 PM   #17
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Another chipped 335i vs M3 war?
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      12-11-2009, 06:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
I think it has more to do with cost cutting personally. The cost to keep producting better and better NA engines is far more than producing FI.
Exactly. Don't forget it is about pleasing the tree-huggers as well as building a bigger market for BMW cars. BMW has made it time and again clear that BMW wants to increase its market shares in all of its products. It also wants to sell lots of M cars in high volumes.

BMW is after sales and torquey, low-revving turbo cars will sell a lot more than high-strung, high-revving cars.

It is the perfect formula for BMW to maximize their profits while reducing cost on engine building through "cookie-cutter" turbo engines that could be used in many applications.

The sell out already had begun with the X5 M and X6 M. Anyone wants to see it should watch the top gear episode where Jeremy Clarkson ripped it apart into pieces criticizing its identitiy (it does not feel like a sports car, it is not off-road capable, it cannot haul people in total comfort and it cannot offer good efficiency) and got killed by a Jaguar XF supercharged in a drag race.
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      12-11-2009, 06:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I don't know whether your last paragraph was directed at me or not but I will address it as so anyway.

The M3 is a fine engine and I have said this on numerous occasions but it's not the best engine for road use and everyday driving which is generally conducted of part throttle and at low revs in higher gears.

I also argue that BMW's previous marketing has been to good for it's own good because it has convinced the faithful for years that N/A and high revs is the only way to produce the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. You simply believe that the M5 will get the X5/6M engine unmodified which I highly doubt myself because both cars serve difference purposes.

Would it not be better to see what the next few months bring because writing off M-Division.
Here we go again. YOU drive at part throttle and shift early on a high revving V8 race engine. People that know how to use the engine do not. You could apply that same arbitrary argument to many great engines.

Seriously, you smoke a pipe while you drive - you are not the target demographic.
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      12-11-2009, 06:46 PM   #20
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Wow. While I agree somewhat with the OP, here's my take FWIW. I just got back from my BMW dealership where I dropped off my 135. It's going to a new owner while I await my 2011 (March) M3 which I've dreamt about owning for 20 years. It's finally going to happen. The 135 was a "fair weather" car because of the crap weather here and it just would have sat in the garage until the end of March anyways. It was a smart $$ move to switch the lease to someone else who'd use it. I had the 135 for the past 19 months and I LOVED it. The best BMW I've ever owned and always brought a smile to my face. The power and everything about it was intoxicating - and this from their most "affordable" car. So I'll miss it. If all turbo or supercharged engines worked like this one, the auto world would be a better place.

But, and this is a big but, as I've been test driving various iterations of the the M3 this year, deciding on such things as M/T or DCT, 18 or 19" rims, it occurred to the seat of my pants that this generation of M3 was exactly what I needed to replace the 1er. While I smiled in the 1, I laughed in the M3. So no regrets (well sort of, wish I could have afforded to keep the 1er and the upcoming M but I can't). To each their own.

Could I have waited for the '12/'13 M3 with probably 575-600 hp and loads of torque? Yes, I've got alternate transportation and for that matter, could have kept the 1er. Is the N/A V8 one of the best motors in the world (for the price) and is it attached to one of, if not THE, best cars in the world? I think so. So the current M3 it is. And it'll be a VERY LONG 4 months before I get it but worth the wait because, as the OP implies, it'll be the last of a dying breed...and a damn great one at that.

Mark
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      12-11-2009, 06:47 PM   #21
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Ehhh doesn't bother me. F10 M5 will be my next car in 3-4 years.
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      12-11-2009, 06:50 PM   #22
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Here we go again...another 40 page thread with 600+ posts. Oh the humanity!
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