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      11-12-2008, 09:56 PM   #1
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Exhaust Prices....Are they taking advantage?

What is with the insane mark up on the E9# M3 exhaust systems? I have been around the M3 scene for almost a decade now and every time a new model is released expectingly the cost of the aftermarket increase as well.
I remember when I had my E36 M3 I purchased a brand new AA exhaust for 650 bucks...then when I got my E46 M3 I purchased an AA exhaust for 1200 bucks. Yes, when the E46 was released their were alot of options, but some were beyond ridiculous. Now with the E90 it seems that almost everything is beyond ridiculous. I just cannot fathom how your basic catback exhaust warrants a 2800 dollar price tag? I am not singleing out AA, but just using them as an example as I have had their parts on my previous cars.
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      11-12-2008, 09:58 PM   #2
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It isn't catbacks costing 2800, it is mufflers.

Yes, it is ridiculously expensive.
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      11-12-2008, 10:00 PM   #3
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+1
Agree Just too much money!!
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      11-12-2008, 10:23 PM   #4
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USD downfall versus EURO for European exhausts
Inflation
Raw material price increase
Labor wages increase
Limited market
2 mufflers versus 1 for E36/E46

Plenty of factors to consider.
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      11-12-2008, 10:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus View Post
USD downfall versus EURO for European exhausts
Inflation
Raw material price increase
Labor wages increase
Limited market
2 mufflers versus 1 for E36/E46

Plenty of factors to consider.
+1

Ilia@IND's post-

Don't forget that each of the people involved in the process has some if not all of the following expenses: materials costs, importing costs, TUV approval costs, R&D costs, marketing costs, paying your well paid first world employees, and so on.

Many people donít understand the need for a distributor or retailer, but itís important to keep in mind that a number of skills and industry contacts are needed in order to get an exhaust system from the manufacturer to you:

You need a person to speak the native language, at least a little bit, to help design the system for the appropriate market, test fit the system on a US market car, negotiate pricing and shipping times, and place the orders.

You need someone with contacts in the shipping industry to negotiate good shipping rates, consolidate shipments, allow for systems to clear customs, and pay customs fees. MSRP on an Eisenmann is $2800 US IN GERMANY, so imagine trying to get this exhaust landed in the US on your own. To air ship a single system to the US costs close to $1000 US dollars with duties, taxes, air freight, and brokerage and customs fees. Youíd pay closer to $4000 US dollars for an Eisenmann E92 M3 system if you tried to ship it in yourself.

Even once the system is here, you need someone who can deal with the staff at the receiving airport, pick up the system, and get it to leave US customs in a timely fashion. When IND first started years ago, systems would be held at customs for an entire week, with us scrambling to get the necessary paperwork to make things happen. Now, with experience, we are usually able to clear systems through customs in a matter of hours, but only because we have working experience with the US customs system.

Simply put, weíre just not making very much money on Eisenmann systems. Are we making money? Of course! Do you make money at work? We need to as well, in order to stay in business.

To speak on the relevance of the TUV approval process to US customers:

The TUV requires all manufacturers to submit engineering drawings of all exhaust systems, and scrutinizes exhaust fit, weld quality, material quality, sound volume, and so on. The TUV approval process is quite expensive, and the cost is built into every system sold by the manufacturer. Eisenmann systems are also built in an ISO 9001 manufacturing environment, and that certification isnít cheap either.

This might not mean anything now, but when the welds break on your outsourced system because there are no manufacturing standards to speak of, maybe you'll have wished you bought the more expensive system the first time.

TUV approval paper for the 335i
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      11-12-2008, 10:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus View Post
USD downfall versus EURO for European exhausts
Inflation
Raw material price increase
Labor wages increase
Limited market
2 mufflers versus 1 for E36/E46

Plenty of factors to consider.
However, Remus seems to be one of few "deals" out there at about $1500, especially considering it's made in Austria.
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      11-12-2008, 10:37 PM   #7
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No matter what anyone says, you *can* get a couple mufflers and have a good shop do the work for you and have a setup for ~700 dollars.

Would it drone? Probably, but it would be cheap. I would probably just pay the money and get a system made specifically for the M3.
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      11-12-2008, 10:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
+1

Ilia@IND's post-

Don't forget that each of the people involved in the process has some if not all of the following expenses: materials costs, importing costs, TUV approval costs, R&D costs, marketing costs, paying your well paid first world employees, and so on.

Many people donít understand the need for a distributor or retailer, but itís important to keep in mind that a number of skills and industry contacts are needed in order to get an exhaust system from the manufacturer to you:

You need a person to speak the native language, at least a little bit, to help design the system for the appropriate market, test fit the system on a US market car, negotiate pricing and shipping times, and place the orders.

You need someone with contacts in the shipping industry to negotiate good shipping rates, consolidate shipments, allow for systems to clear customs, and pay customs fees. MSRP on an Eisenmann is $2800 US IN GERMANY, so imagine trying to get this exhaust landed in the US on your own. To air ship a single system to the US costs close to $1000 US dollars with duties, taxes, air freight, and brokerage and customs fees. Youíd pay closer to $4000 US dollars for an Eisenmann E92 M3 system if you tried to ship it in yourself.

Even once the system is here, you need someone who can deal with the staff at the receiving airport, pick up the system, and get it to leave US customs in a timely fashion. When IND first started years ago, systems would be held at customs for an entire week, with us scrambling to get the necessary paperwork to make things happen. Now, with experience, we are usually able to clear systems through customs in a matter of hours, but only because we have working experience with the US customs system.

Simply put, weíre just not making very much money on Eisenmann systems. Are we making money? Of course! Do you make money at work? We need to as well, in order to stay in business.

To speak on the relevance of the TUV approval process to US customers:

The TUV requires all manufacturers to submit engineering drawings of all exhaust systems, and scrutinizes exhaust fit, weld quality, material quality, sound volume, and so on. The TUV approval process is quite expensive, and the cost is built into every system sold by the manufacturer. Eisenmann systems are also built in an ISO 9001 manufacturing environment, and that certification isnít cheap either.

This might not mean anything now, but when the welds break on your outsourced system because there are no manufacturing standards to speak of, maybe you'll have wished you bought the more expensive system the first time.

We all need to make money...which i completely understand. I am also not talking based on the experience of owning a couple of exhaust systems. I have had over 16 different mufflers for my E46 M3. Including the whole Eisenman line. I actually remember selling my Eisenman Titanium for the exact reason you stated of the welds breaking. Thats why Eisenman released an updated version because I guess the R&D wasnt correct on the first one.
I am not looking to back any one company into a corner, I am simply stating my opinion that I feel as if companies are taking advantage. A couple of domestic companies were able to get their systems to market for under 1700 bucks and some even sub 1500. I just cant imagine that a non domestic exhaust manufacturer has to incur costs that nearly double the price of the system.
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      11-12-2008, 11:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus View Post
USD downfall versus EURO for European exhausts
Inflation
Raw material price increase
Labor wages increase
Limited market
2 mufflers versus 1 for E36/E46

Plenty of factors to consider.
+2^894893489230

R&D is a huge cost for a company manufacturing a part for a brand new car as well. The E9x M3 is a brand new vehicle and taking the time to carefully construct an exhaust with the right results takes a lot of time and that much more money. Fuel costs have risen driving prices of everything up, i.e. shipping costs, fuel surcharges, etc etc. Employees demand more pay as their expenses are higher for these very same reasons.

TunedM3, sure you could try to save a buck and get a lesser quality exhaust or other product. But how long will it last? How much will it cost you to repair or replace it when it fails prematurely? I just purchased an Eisenmann Sport exhaust and I know I'm getting a top notch product and piece of mind to go along with it. I can also rest knowing the since the exhaust is TUV approved, the exhaust is good enough for the US streets as it will be a high quality and reliable product. I think your "Ti Eisenmann" was in fact an inexpensive replica.

Bottomline, the price of EVERYTHING is going up, and aftermarket parts are no exception this is not due to manufacturers or distributors making more money, it is simply to pay for the costs that entail bringing the product to your door. In an ideal world, our incomes would go up at the same rate of inflation, but we live in an imperfect world.
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      11-12-2008, 11:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus View Post
USD downfall versus EURO for European exhausts
Inflation
Raw material price increase
Labor wages increase
Limited market
2 mufflers versus 1 for E36/E46

Plenty of factors to consider.
So when should I expect the price adjustment to be released based on the current USD to Euro? Have you checked the market lately?

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/co...EUR&amt=1&t=3m
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      11-12-2008, 11:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TUNEDM3 View Post
So when should I expect the price adjustment to be released based on the current USD to Euro? Have you checked the market lately?
just buy a magnaflow crap and call it a day. I have heard a few of the mufflers in person and remus and eisenmannn sound the best.
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      11-12-2008, 11:24 PM   #12
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Borla just released their system at 1495$ and magnaflow has one in the works and im assuming it will be around the same price
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      11-12-2008, 11:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
+1

Ilia@IND's post-

Don't forget that each of the people involved in the process has some if not all of the following expenses: materials costs, importing costs, TUV approval costs, R&D costs, marketing costs, paying your well paid first world employees, and so on.

Many people don’t understand the need for a distributor or retailer, but it’s important to keep in mind that a number of skills and industry contacts are needed in order to get an exhaust system from the manufacturer to you:

You need a person to speak the native language, at least a little bit, to help design the system for the appropriate market, test fit the system on a US market car, negotiate pricing and shipping times, and place the orders.

You need someone with contacts in the shipping industry to negotiate good shipping rates, consolidate shipments, allow for systems to clear customs, and pay customs fees. MSRP on an Eisenmann is $2800 US IN GERMANY, so imagine trying to get this exhaust landed in the US on your own. To air ship a single system to the US costs close to $1000 US dollars with duties, taxes, air freight, and brokerage and customs fees. You’d pay closer to $4000 US dollars for an Eisenmann E92 M3 system if you tried to ship it in yourself.

Even once the system is here, you need someone who can deal with the staff at the receiving airport, pick up the system, and get it to leave US customs in a timely fashion. When IND first started years ago, systems would be held at customs for an entire week, with us scrambling to get the necessary paperwork to make things happen. Now, with experience, we are usually able to clear systems through customs in a matter of hours, but only because we have working experience with the US customs system.

Simply put, we’re just not making very much money on Eisenmann systems. Are we making money? Of course! Do you make money at work? We need to as well, in order to stay in business.

To speak on the relevance of the TUV approval process to US customers:

The TUV requires all manufacturers to submit engineering drawings of all exhaust systems, and scrutinizes exhaust fit, weld quality, material quality, sound volume, and so on. The TUV approval process is quite expensive, and the cost is built into every system sold by the manufacturer. Eisenmann systems are also built in an ISO 9001 manufacturing environment, and that certification isn’t cheap either.

This might not mean anything now, but when the welds break on your outsourced system because there are no manufacturing standards to speak of, maybe you'll have wished you bought the more expensive system the first time.

TUV approval paper for the 335i


I would believe your R&D argument until I did a quick overview of the Eisenmann NA site and stumbled across this....

The engineers over there can't be serious!!!!!!!!!! Is that a joke? The same people responsible for this disaster want 2800 now?


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      11-12-2008, 11:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackjunkiem3 View Post
I would believe your R&D argument until I did a quick overview of the Eisenmann NA site and stumbled across this....

The engineers over there can't be serious!!!!!!!!!! Is that a joke? The same people responsible for this disaster want 2800 now?


Nice first post lol
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      11-12-2008, 11:51 PM   #15
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We do have a choice, we can go to our local muffler shop and put a system on for a few hundred dollars. Some of us have done that and they are propbably half smart. You could play around with 3 or 4 mufflers before you got the right ones for a total of $300-$400 and put the other $2k towards wheels.

Or we can do what the other do who think ourselves are real smart and not half smart and spend $2,500 so we don't get ribbed on the forum, I just wonder how smart we really are?

An exhaust system for $12,500 must mean we are highly intelligent and have a engineers degree.
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      11-12-2008, 11:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
We do have a choice, we can go to our local muffler shop and put a system on for a few hundred dollars. Some of us have done that and they are propbably half smart. You could play around with 3 or 4 mufflers before you got the right ones for a total of $300-$400 and put the other $2k towards wheels.

Or we can do what the other do who think ourselves are real smart and not half smart and spend $2,500 so we don't get ribbed on the forum, I just wonder how smart we really are?

An exhaust system for $12,500 must mean we are highly intelligent and have a engineers degree.
AMEN!!!
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      11-13-2008, 03:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher5 View Post
+2^894893489230

R&D is a huge cost for a company manufacturing a part for a brand new car as well. The E9x M3 is a brand new vehicle and taking the time to carefully construct an exhaust with the right results takes a lot of time and that much more money. Fuel costs have risen driving prices of everything up, i.e. shipping costs, fuel surcharges, etc etc. Employees demand more pay as their expenses are higher for these very same reasons.

TunedM3, sure you could try to save a buck and get a lesser quality exhaust or other product. But how long will it last? How much will it cost you to repair or replace it when it fails prematurely? I just purchased an Eisenmann Sport exhaust and I know I'm getting a top notch product and piece of mind to go along with it. I can also rest knowing the since the exhaust is TUV approved, the exhaust is good enough for the US streets as it will be a high quality and reliable product. I think your "Ti Eisenmann" was in fact an inexpensive replica.

Bottomline, the price of EVERYTHING is going up, and aftermarket parts are no exception this is not due to manufacturers or distributors making more money, it is simply to pay for the costs that entail bringing the product to your door. In an ideal world, our incomes would go up at the same rate of inflation, but we live in an imperfect world.
I can accept this explanation for headers, not for mufflers.
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      11-13-2008, 05:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TUNEDM3 View Post
So when should I expect the price adjustment to be released based on the current USD to Euro? Have you checked the market lately?

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/co...EUR&amt=1&t=3m
Tendancy to reduce cost is extremely ridig in ANY industry.

I also forgot to mention importation and shipping costs, which have doubled over 12 months. We used to air ship it all the exhaust systems for pennies, today we must use sea shipments to have comparable rates to former air shipments.

Have you checked the whole economy lately?
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...82EE404D685%7D
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      11-13-2008, 06:31 AM   #19
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Everything is expensive for BMW's. I'm not complaining I've just accepted it. So far I've been happy with the quality of the products I've bought for my BMW so it is what it is.

I used to work on small block Chevy's all the time. If you're looking to save money that's the engine to be working on. Huge amounts of power can be had for little investment. Then you can slap on a pair of Flowmaster mufflers for $80 a piece and they sound great on an american car. If they happen to rust out or break, well you can buy them 33 more times before it equals $2800.

But I'd rather be driving and working on my ///M
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      11-13-2008, 07:02 AM   #20
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Yeah, $10k gets you only wheels, tyres & exhaust for a M3, you can buy a new car for just about that!
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Last edited by watrob; 11-13-2008 at 04:45 PM..
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      11-13-2008, 08:11 AM   #21
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The exhaust on my S2000 was 600. I can't even get a x-pipe on the M3 for that.
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      11-13-2008, 08:55 AM   #22
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Taking advantage? If you don't want to pay the money then don't buy it. It's a matter of supply and demand.
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