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      08-08-2019, 09:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
For decades BMW won all those tests, and everyone thought they paid C&D off. C&Ds test are commonly associated with BMWs are a result.

Then BMW started making garbage cars, and losing the tests are a result... and we're in today's situation.
So you mean, only C&D's opinion counts, and BMW are making cars so bad that, in every category, they're beaten by almost every other car maker? Wow. This is quite a hate bubble.
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      08-08-2019, 10:03 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
So you mean, only C&D's opinion counts, and BMW are making cars so bad that, in every category, they're beaten by almost every other car maker? Wow. This is quite a hate bubble.
C&D's taste in cars happens to be very similar to my own-- so my opinion of BMW's lineup has pretty closely tracked theirs.
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      08-08-2019, 01:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I had an e39 530i until early this year. It drove light years better than any current BMW.
I drove an E39, and I'd prefer any current BMW sedan over it. And the G30 is way more fun to drive than the E39. Way more perfromance, way better balance and way less lean on corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
For me, the elephant in the room, the 3-series is no longer a small agile vehicle. It has 'outgrown' the market that it used to be in.

My neighbour has an E39 5-series used as a daily driver. The G20 is more like that 5-series generation, than a 3-series of old.

My son runs a Focus ST 3, totally different market to the 3-series over here in the UK, 1-series is segment competitor to the ST and GTI.
What were the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 1995?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series were sportier and slightly lighter than its competition. It had the best performing engines, and best lap times among its peers.

What are the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 2019?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series is sportier and lighter than its competition. It has the best performing and sophisticated engines, and best lap times among its peers.

3 series didn't outgrow the market it's in. The market has changed like it always does, and 3 series has adapted.
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      08-08-2019, 01:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
What were the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 1995?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series were sportier and slightly lighter than its competition. It had the best performing engines, and best lap times among its peers.

What are the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 2019?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series is sportier and lighter than its competition. It has the best performing and sophisticated engines, and best lap times among its peers.

3 series didn't outgrow the market it's in. The market has changed like it always does, and 3 series has adapted.
The Cadillac and Lexus 3 series competitors are both sportier driving cars than the 3 series.
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      08-08-2019, 01:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

Again - this is just my opinion, as well all know, but it's how I feel. BMW still builds amazing cars and I thoroughly enjoy most of their offering, but let's be honest here - they really are just fancy Camry these days. I've driven a Lexus and BMW back to back before, and can say - that in my opinion - the BMW was no more sporty.
The 3 Series in not more sporty than Camry? No, the sky is still blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
The Cadillac and Lexus 3 series competitors are both sportier driving cars than the 3 series.
No they are not. The X5 is sportier driving than Cadillac and Lexus.

C&D appears to be the only publication that puts BMWs behind everything else. And their banner ads that promote their "ranking's" has always a picture of a BMW.

I'm not debating whether their views of BMW are accurate, because they're not. It's not possible that they're the only accurate ones in the entire world, and excuse me, it's not accurate that every BMW is worse than any Kia and Hyundai in their respective classes.

So, their BMW "opinion" is a complete outlier, which is -according to the science of statistics- proof that they're wrong. And based on their ads, it looks like it's targeted just to attack BMW.

That's why the title of the thread says "What's going on?". Because there should be some dispute, or some problem between C&D and BMW.
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      08-08-2019, 01:33 PM   #72
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No they are not. The X5 is sportier driving than Cadillac and Lexus.
While that was certainly true for most of the history of the caddy and lexus brands, at this point your information is out of date.
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      08-08-2019, 01:35 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
C&D's taste in cars happens to be very similar to my own-- so my opinion of BMW's lineup has pretty closely tracked theirs.
Alright, so you would take any Hyundai or Kia to any BMW? That's what C&D rankings suggest.
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      08-08-2019, 01:37 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
That's why the title of the thread says "What's going on?". Because theres should be some dispute, or some problem between C&D and BMW.
"what's going on" is that BMW's cars aren't what they used to be, and C&D's reviews reflect that. There's no conspiracy or plot between C&D and BMW-- BMW started spewing out crap, C&D reported accordingly.

e.g. here's a quote of them comparing the E90 to the F30:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.) The ATS is unquestionably the more satisfying sports sedan of these two.
Car and Driver is not unique in their views.

Last edited by Obioban; 08-08-2019 at 01:43 PM..
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      08-08-2019, 01:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
All right, so you would take any Hyundai or Kia to any BMW?
The Kia Stinger is a pretty good car. If they offered it with a manual, I might have one, indeed. It also shouldn't be too surprising that Hyundai is putting out some good to drive cars-- they hired the head of M, from the era in which M made good cars.

Either way, my string of 15 consecutive BMWs is pretty much guaranteed to come to an end with my next car purchase.

Last edited by Obioban; 08-08-2019 at 01:46 PM..
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      08-08-2019, 01:51 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post

Car and Driver is not unique in their views.
Car & driver is unique in its views.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/3-series
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/bmw/3-series-0
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re.../3-series-g20/
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      08-08-2019, 02:06 PM   #77
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Not a one of those is a comparison test.

Here's some non C&D comparison tests for you:

Motortrend. Last place 3 series: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...mparison-test/

Another loss for the 3 series from motor trend: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...mparison-test/

Top gear 3 series loss: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/rev...s-vs-jaguar-xe

Car and driver of yesteryear:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
And sheer power may not even be the M5's best quality. Its true best quality may be just that: its pure best-ness. Given some perfectly reasonable criteria, BMW's new-generation M5 just might be the best car in the world.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...d-test-review/
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      08-08-2019, 04:56 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
What were the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 1995?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series were sportier and slightly lighter than its competition. It had the best performing engines, and best lap times among its peers.

What are the 3 series competitiors, let's say in 2019?
Let's see: C class, A4. 3 series is sportier and lighter than its competition. It has the best performing and sophisticated engines, and best lap times among its peers.

3 series didn't outgrow the market it's in. The market has changed like it always does, and 3 series has adapted.
I completely agree with what you are saying. Maybe my wording was not quite clear. I was meaning it had 'outgrown' its original size, the small sporty sedan 'market'. Not outgrown the competitive market.

Same as my current 5-series has grown, nothing like the size, weight, agility, etc., of my original E12. The 5-series is now bigger than the 7-series my father used to run. I saw the Seven's of 20 years ago as very large cars, never expected to be driving a Five that was even bigger.
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      08-08-2019, 07:03 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
To a select number of buyers that would add to the fun, no doubt. But we know that the number of people who want that option is shrinking steadily. We also know that this drop in demand is due in no small part to the fact that the manual transmission went from being the higher performance option (and for buyers of a sports car, sports sedan, or sports coupe, we know up front that performance going to be a pretty high priority) to being the an option that, in most cases, slightly hinders performance. It's just the normal effects of new technology as time marches on. We can't blame BMW nor any other corporation (its an industry trend - not one that is unique to BMW, after all) for eliminating features that increasingly fewer customers want.



Sure, the vehicles have grown in size, gotten heavier, and are less toss-able. I would agree that makes them less sporty. But here again, it's not limited to BMW.
That's what was so cool with the original 1 series, but the 1er didn't cut too much into 3 series sales. People want comfortable and tech, unfortunately, and that's why EVs (eventually self-driving) are on the horizon. The sport and technique of driving is primarily lost.
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