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      08-21-2019, 08:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Wait until economy hits like it did in 2008
Everyone was selling SUV and buying cars because of gas prices

You don't want to many SUV
Buddy trust me I'm with you. I hate seeing SUV's on the road but it is what it is and it ain't going away anytime soon.
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      08-21-2019, 10:00 AM   #68
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Post Why BMW is struggling

There's just no reason to buy a BMW anymore.

They don't drive better than the competition.
They don't look better than the competition.
They aren't more reliable than the competition.
They aren't more luxurious than the competition.
They aren't cooler than the competition.
They aren't cheaper than the competition.

BMW used to be differentiated by driving dynamics. If you wanted a car that drove nicely, but was also reliable and luxurious enough to DD, BMW was your only option. No, this wasn't desirable to every customer in the world-- and that's fine. Every product does not to appeal to every person.

This was true of every BMW, not just the M cars. Every car had great steering feel, 50:50 weight distribution, good chassis feel, light weight for the practicality offered, rear wheel drive, a gimmick free, focused cockpit, with a responsive, linear NA engine, that could be paired to a manual transmission. Paying more got you that experience in a larger and/or faster car, but you got the above no matter what.

Because the above attracted car enthusiasts (who often also enjoy tinkering), it was also somewhat important that the cars were also easy to work on (no longer true).

During this period, their styling had a consistent form follows function mentality, which gave them a distinctive look compared to every other car on the road (also now abandoned).

This was the formula from 1962 (with the "New Class") till the early 2000s. Now it applies to... not a single car they make other than maybe the i3 (which is too ugly for most people to see past).

The above formula does not appeal to 100% of the population. It doesn't even appeal to the majority of it. BMW changed, trying to make a car for everyone. In the process, they made a lineup of generic cars that aren't better at anything and aren't particularly appealing to anyone. BMW is no longer differentiated, so now they're left scrounging for cheaper leases to get cars moved.

Last edited by Obioban; 08-23-2019 at 09:26 AM..
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      08-21-2019, 11:40 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
There's just no reason to buy a BMW anymore.

They don't drive better than the competition.
They don't look better than the competition.
They aren't more reliable than the competition.
They aren't more luxurious than the competition.
They aren't cooler than the competition.
They aren't cheaper than the competition.

BMW used to be differentiated by driving dynamics. If you wanted a car that drove nicely, but was also reliable and luxurious enough to DD, BMW was your only option. No, this wasn't desirable to every customer in the world-- and that's fine. Every product does not to appeal to every person.

This was true of every BMW, not just the M cars. Every car had great steering feel, 50:50 weight distribution, good chassis feel, light weight for the practicality offered, rear wheel drive, a gimmick free, focused cockpit, with a responsive, linear NA engine, that could be paired to a manual transmission. Paying more got you that experience in a larger and/or faster car, but you got the above no matter what.

Because the above attracted car enthusiasts (who often also enjoy tinkering), it was also somewhat important that the cars were also easy to work on (no longer true).

During this period, their styling had a consistent form follows function mentality, which gave them a distinctive look compared to every other car on the road (also now abandoned).

This was the formula from 1962 (with the "New Class") till the early 2000s. Now it applies to... not a single car they make other than maybe the i3 (which is too ugly for most people to see past).

The above formula does not appeal to 100% of the population. It doesn't even appeal to the majority of it. BMW changed, trying to make a car for everyone. In the process, they made a lineup of generic cars that aren't better at anything and aren't particularly appealing to anyone. BMW id no longer differentiated, so now they're left scrounging for cheaper leases to get cars moved.
very few people care about driving dynamic, speaking to all my friends, no one really complain about their cars, (or not in any meaningful ways, and definitely not about driving dynamic) regardless the brand, modern car has gotten really "good", even the cheap ones.
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      08-21-2019, 11:44 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I'm actually not totally clear on why the 320 was shelved for the US market. I'd venture to guess that due to low margins they really had to push a high volume of them? And felt their resources would be better used on SAVs and EV development?

I won't miss those base model white 320i lease specials one bit.
Margins were likely low, yes. But also, they did not want to upstage (cannibalize) the 228i Gran Coupe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
The 320 will be back I am sure. In the F30 generation, the 320 was not available until 2014, 2 years after the F30 launch.
It won't be. The 228i Gran Coupe debuts this year (and hits dealerships in the first half of next year) and will be more profitable than a G20 320i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Wait until economy hits like it did in 2008
Everyone was selling SUV and buying cars because of gas prices

You don't want to many SUV
That's not where this is headed. By the time you ramp up fuel-efficient small vehicles, fuel is no longer the driver of fuel economy. How electrified you are is the new driver. So, if gas prices become an issue (and I doubt they will, but let's say they do just for the sake of argument), then the market is ripe to push people into those quirky hybrid drive vehicles that everyone thinks are just for the stinky PETA lady down the block or the weirdos in California. Enter marketing department stage left.

No one is going to give up their SUV for a Yaris when they realize they can cut $100 a month on gas by buying a hybrid SUV. "But wait though" - you protest - "the SUV costs a lot more than a shit-box!" Yeah, and so do the nonsense, land-barge, pseudo off-road, rolling living rooms that are being swept off the lots at a furious clip today. People don't care about vehicle cost - that's all financed or leased, you see. It's a fixed cost. What they care about is that ding in the monthly spending cash because that's one less Amazon Prime delivery.

Here's what you need to be successful in the 2020+ automotive market:

a) Amortized Hybrid technology
b) EV readiness, including diversified battery suppliers with a line on raw materials
c) Class leading small SUVs
d) Class leading medium-sized SUVs
e) Class leading large SUVs
f) Class leading ridicuously-sized SUVs
g) In general, the ability to push people coming out of your passe' passenger cars into your SUVs instead of someone else's

Whether BMW is prepared is still open for debate, but they don't strike me as any less likely to succeed than the rest of the premium manufacturer playing field, Mercedes included. One thing that VAG and Daimler do have that BMW doesn't - sheer size.
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      08-21-2019, 11:49 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
very few people care about driving dynamic, speaking to all my friends, no one really complain about their cars, (or not in any meaningful ways, and definitely not about driving dynamic) regardless the brand, modern car has gotten really "good", even the cheap ones.
"your friends" don't necessarily represent a meaningful data sample . I had 5 friends at my house last night who were former BMW owners-- none of whom plan to buy a new one, because of how they drive now. I don't think that is representative, either. But, inherently anyone you know that owns a modern BMW does not prioritize how cars drive, so I'm not surprised.

BMW expanded for decades on the previous strategy. ~10 years into the new one, at least some of which was assisted by the reputation they built over the preceding 50 years, and the foundation is starting to crumble.
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      08-21-2019, 01:06 PM   #72
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IMO BMW made the following missteps:
1) Brand dilution. There are too many BMW models in the lineup, and lots of them on the road. That's a fine strategy in terms of raw volume, but it kills off a lot of the premium or cache attached to it.
2) With that many vehicles, it's hard to be focused. It's economies of scale all the way, and an attempt to cut costs down per unit and drive up margin. The result, however, is mostly cookie cutter vehicles - modulo some gimmicks, the cars are very similar inside and out.
3) M Division has likewise been diluted. They make stellar cars still (certainly at the top of each class they compete in), but there are now M badges on too many vehicles. These M packages don't make the real M cars feel as special.
4) It's a lease-mostly brand. Still the best lease programs among competitors (at least in the US), and that works well to get customers into a new car every 3 years. But it kills resale/used market with a constant flood of vehicles coming off leases. The low resale likely influences customers' perception of the brand.
5) Straight up mistakes on certain vehicles that they have to unwind, but committed (likely) large sums of $. eg i8, M3/4 CS. These cars were overproduced and/or overpriced. Perhaps in an aim to increase volume they miscalculated on those.

If one considers Porsche, I don't think they care an ounce about being highest volume seller. They make bank per unit sold, and manage to pump out class leading vehicles despite being latecomers to some of them. They pretty much force you to finance/buy as their lease programs are awful. Resale, modulo perhaps the Panamera, is pretty good; 911 resale is particularly great. They don't have a ton of vehicles so can stay more focused and lean/agile (I suspect).

If one goes strictly after volume, what you end up with is precisely where BMW is today. It's going to be difficult to unwind after many years of that strategy.
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      08-21-2019, 01:48 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankchn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
M5 with RWD ttV8 dogbox 5 seats and some cheap vents and an aux cable stereo would be cool and make people excited and hyping up the brand.
Sure, everyone who can't afford that car will be super-excited about buying one for $10k after 10 years, but no one who can actually afford it new will buy it.

Quote:
Basically the car people will move on to a Caterham style small company making a cool sports car and BMW will age poorly like Chanel or Cadillac. The shareholders will squeeze every dime they can from the brand and it will go away and something new will replace it and the whole thing will start over.
You overestimate how many "car people" there actually are for BMW (or any mid-size to large manufacturer) to care. The Alpine A110, which by all accounts is a fantastic driver's car, has sales of about 2,000 last year across the whole of Europe. In good months, BMW will sell more 3 series than that in a week in Europe.

Quote:
That's the bottom line. They're not cool. They're not the car to have anymore. They're a gross amalgamation of gimmicks and cheap chassis and transmissions trying to be everything for every customer at the same time. They've damaged the brand.
I don't think being cool matters. Mercedes has never been "cool" or "sporty" yet they have better sales than BMW.
In the US Mercedes and BMW have a prestige that people want to have by owning the brand. If simply making a nice car at a high price point was enough Cadillac wouldn't be in the sales slump it is in.

Cadillac is for old people. Cadillac is basically a reverse engineered bmw line up at this point, and they're pretty good and a better price, very reliable.

Yet nobody in NYC or California will touch Cadillac. They literally sent out pictures of millenials with man buns to show dealers the type of customers they want to get in Cadillacs.

By contrast BMW and Mercedes are cool. For now.
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      08-21-2019, 01:52 PM   #74
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Cadillac is a preview of where BMW's brand is headed if they keep their recent course for 10-20 years... and then started making good cars again.

Cadillac made amazing cars for a long time. Then they spent 20-30 years making generic cars on shared platforms (like every car BMW makes today) with "luxury" features/gimmicks smeared on top (like BMW today). In recent history they've started making good cars again (albeit with shitty interiors), but now there's too much dislike for the brand for it to matter.
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      08-21-2019, 02:07 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
"your friends" don't necessarily represent a meaningful data sample . I had 5 friends at my house last night who were former BMW owners-- none of whom plan to buy a new one, because of how they drive now. I don't think that is representative, either. But, inherently anyone you know that owns a modern BMW does not prioritize how cars drive, so I'm not surprised.

BMW expanded for decades on the previous strategy. ~10 years into the new one, at least some of which was assisted by the reputation they built over the preceding 50 years, and the foundation is starting to crumble.
sure though not about BMW guys just generic statement about the "newer" car ownership guys these days. Ultimate Driving machine was certainly a very sellable image
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      08-21-2019, 02:12 PM   #76
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Cadillac is going to kill/downgrade its sedan segment before it can get the reputation it wants unfortunately. Caddy and Corvette are still the two only American car/brand I would consider buying

With regards to M-lite I don't know how bad it is?

Would M550 be better served just called 550 and M340 just called 340? Though I suppose BMW could make the M-lite more hardcore (which AMG does, or at least differentiate more) but it needs to strike a balance.

I definitely see people buying M550 instead of M5 more than just money (more comfortable ride for example)
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      08-21-2019, 02:58 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I'm actually not totally clear on why the 320 was shelved for the US market. I'd venture to guess that due to low margins they really had to push a high volume of them? And felt their resources would be better used on SAVs and EV development?

I won't miss those base model white 320i lease specials one bit.
Margins were likely low, yes. But also, they did not want to upstage (cannibalize) the 228i Gran Coupe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
The 320 will be back I am sure. In the F30 generation, the 320 was not available until 2014, 2 years after the F30 launch.
It won't be. The 228i Gran Coupe debuts this year (and hits dealerships in the first half of next year) and will be more profitable than a G20 320i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Wait until economy hits like it did in 2008
Everyone was selling SUV and buying cars because of gas prices

You don't want to many SUV
That's not where this is headed. By the time you ramp up fuel-efficient small vehicles, fuel is no longer the driver of fuel economy. How electrified you are is the new driver. So, if gas prices become an issue (and I doubt they will, but let's say they do just for the sake of argument), then the market is ripe to push people into those quirky hybrid drive vehicles that everyone thinks are just for the stinky PETA lady down the block or the weirdos in California. Enter marketing department stage left.

No one is going to give up their SUV for a Yaris when they realize they can cut $100 a month on gas by buying a hybrid SUV. "But wait though" - you protest - "the SUV costs a lot more than a shit-box!" Yeah, and so do the nonsense, land-barge, pseudo off-road, rolling living rooms that are being swept off the lots at a furious clip today. People don't care about vehicle cost - that's all financed or leased, you see. It's a fixed cost. What they care about is that ding in the monthly spending cash because that's one less Amazon Prime delivery.

Here's what you need to be successful in the 2020+ automotive market:

a) Amortized Hybrid technology
b) EV readiness, including diversified battery suppliers with a line on raw materials
c) Class leading small SUVs
d) Class leading medium-sized SUVs
e) Class leading large SUVs
f) Class leading ridicuously-sized SUVs
g) In general, the ability to push people coming out of your passe' passenger cars into your SUVs instead of someone else's

Whether BMW is prepared is still open for debate, but they don't strike me as any less likely to succeed than the rest of the premium manufacturer playing field, Mercedes included. One thing that VAG and Daimler do have that BMW doesn't - sheer size.
I see what you are saying but now average American buy cars that they can barely effort.

That being said when recession hits there is a big mess. People need to switch to lower cost vehicle and low gas sucking monsters.

Now with gas prices: even being the same price they get forced to buy smaller cars because average Americans drive 30-45min. to work. To be able to save money.

Happened before and I know it will happen again.
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      08-21-2019, 03:04 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Cadillac is going to kill/downgrade its sedan segment before it can get the reputation it wants unfortunately. Caddy and Corvette are still the two only American car/brand I would consider buying

With regards to M-lite I don't know how bad it is?

Would M550 be better served just called 550 and M340 just called 340? Though I suppose BMW could make the M-lite more hardcore (which AMG does, or at least differentiate more) but it needs to strike a balance.

I definitely see people buying M550 instead of M5 more than just money (more comfortable ride for example)
I wouldn't use the M550 or M340 as example.

This whole M thing should be pure

I can see adding C and even CS and that's it!!!
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      08-21-2019, 03:19 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
I see what you are saying but now average American buy cars that they can barely effort.
Right, that's what I was getting at with the buyer-behavior commentary.

Quote:
That being said when recession hits there is a big mess. People need to switch to lower cost vehicle and low gas sucking monsters.
If they need to switch to a lower cost vehicle, they'll buy a lower cost SUV. The cheapest vehicles on the market are still sedans, but only by a few thousand dollars (a few dollars per month). And most people aren't driving the cheapest SUVs on the market, so there will be cheaper ones available to them if necessary.

Quote:
Now with gas prices: even being the same price they get forced to buy smaller cars because average Americans drive 30-45min. to work. To be able to save money.

Happened before and I know it will happen again.
A recession could happen again, but as far as the automotive sector is concerned there are better tools in the shed this time to work through it.
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      08-21-2019, 03:27 PM   #80
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The optimist in me says "yay, more fun cars that people want to buy". However, the pessimist in my says "boo, more FWD cars being sold to people who don't know the difference".
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      08-21-2019, 03:30 PM   #81
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recession will definitely happen, just when, though I think SUV are still going to stick around no matter what, it's driving style preference..., I see lots of people just prefer the higher driving position and they will never come back to cars again...
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      08-21-2019, 03:56 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Wait until economy hits like it did in 2008
Everyone was selling SUV and buying cars because of gas prices

You don't want to many SUV
There won't be as large of a shift during the next downturn since the fuel economy gap has narrowed considerably.

A 2020 X5 40i does 22 mpg, a 540i does 25. Similarly, an X3 30i does 26 mpg, and a 330i does 30. At 15,000 miles a year of mixed driving, the difference is $1,000 - $1,500 a year.
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      08-21-2019, 04:57 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
There's just no reason to buy a BMW anymore.

They don't drive better than the competition.
They don't look better than the competition.
They aren't more reliable than the competition.
They aren't more luxurious than the competition.
They aren't cooler than the competition.
They aren't cheaper than the competition.

BMW used to be differentiated by driving dynamics. If you wanted a car that drove nicely, but was also reliable and luxurious enough to DD, BMW was your only option. No, this wasn't desirable to every customer in the world-- and that's fine. Every product does not to appeal to every person.

This was true of every BMW, not just the M cars. Every car had great steering feel, 50:50 weight distribution, good chassis feel, light weight for the practicality offered, rear wheel drive, a gimmick free, focused cockpit, with a responsive, linear NA engine, that could be paired to a manual transmission. Paying more got you that experience in a larger and/or faster car, but you got the above no matter what.

Because the above attracted car enthusiasts (who often also enjoy tinkering), it was also somewhat important that the cars were also easy to work on (no longer true).

During this period, their styling had a consistent form follows function mentality, which gave them a distinctive look compared to every other car on the road (also now abandoned).

This was the formula from 1962 (with the "New Class") till the early 2000s. Now it applies to... not a single car they make other than maybe the i3 (which is too ugly for most people to see past).

The above formula does not appeal to 100% of the population. It doesn't even appeal to the majority of it. BMW changed, trying to make a car for everyone. In the process, they made a lineup of generic cars that aren't better at anything and aren't particularly appealing to anyone. BMW id no longer differentiated, so now they're left scrounging for cheaper leases to get cars moved.
That's a great strategy if your aim is to sell the same amount of cars in 2020 as you did in 1990....

The world and the consumer has moved on, what was acceptable and profitable then doesn't translate into the needs and wants of a modern consumer. Neither would it provide the unit volume and scale a modern auto maker needs to turn a profit whilst investing billions in new tech to keep pace with and stay relevant in a changing sector.

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of Porsche going back to just making the 911 and expecting that to end well.
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      08-21-2019, 05:58 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
That's a great strategy if your aim is to sell the same amount of cars in 2020 as you did in 1990....

The world and the consumer has moved on, what was acceptable and profitable then doesn't translate into the needs and wants of a modern consumer. Neither would it provide the unit volume and scale a modern auto maker needs to turn a profit whilst investing billions in new tech to keep pace with and stay relevant in a changing sector.

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of Porsche going back to just making the 911 and expecting that to end well.
+1, and porsche has VW/Audi to share all its sedan/SUV r&d cost...
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      08-21-2019, 09:27 PM   #85
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BMW needs to add much more features and options as being standard like Mercedes. I owned the M5 Competition for 7 months and couldn't connect with the car. Sold it, got the S560 2019, and instantly connected with it. The features are 1,000 times better and more.. atleast in my experience and opinion. Even if it's considered as a "sports" sedan.
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      08-21-2019, 10:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by MarkNewM5COMPETITION View Post
BMW needs to add much more features and options as being standard like Mercedes. I owned the M5 Competition for 7 months and couldn't connect with the car. Sold it, got the S560 2019, and instantly connected with it. The features are 1,000 times better and more.. atleast in my experience and opinion. Even if it's considered as a "sports" sedan.
It's a bit odd to compare the M5C with an S560. Did you look into the 7 series? That's obviously the competitor to the S class.
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      08-21-2019, 11:15 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
It's a bit odd to compare the M5C with an S560. Did you look into the 7 series? That's obviously the competitor to the S class.
I did but comparing the 2, the S560 still beat all the way. My brother has the 2020 7 series yet still has way less comfortability
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      08-22-2019, 01:35 AM   #88
ny325
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Drives: Jet Black E90
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Build cars for enthusiast, not the mainstream. Leave that to Honda, and Toyota. If you want all the electronic gizmos, by a apple watch, or iPad. If you need a car to park or drive itself, you shouldn't be driving. If you need a car to shake, when you go outside your lane, you shouldn't be driving. If your to lazy to use a knob for your radio, AC, etc, and prefer gesture control, you shouldn't be driving. Why spend over $40,000 for a base model, 4 cylinder engine, with numb steering, no spare tire, fake exhaust note,( Comes through the speaker system ), runflats that are expensive to replace, noisey, bad tread wear, ( give us a spare tire ), I could go on. BMW, bring back the " Ultimate Driving Machine," and simplify the automobile. BMW's of today don't appeal to me. That's why I'm holding on to my E90. Love the way it drives, and no, it's not the perfect car. However, the steering, and driving dynamics, I love. And by the way, keep the "M " badge for M vehicle.

Last edited by ny325; 08-22-2019 at 01:54 AM..
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