M-DCT Lag - What's the reason?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by grayshrk

Different issue - though the upshift lag has happened to me a couple times.
As for the downshift lag, keep in mind that once the transmission takes "ownership" of the downshift, you are pretty much at its mercy. When in S mode, I try to downshift myself at all times to ensure I'm always in the gear I want to be in. I'm not sure if this is the downshift lag you are referring to, but I thought it would be worth it to throw in the tip anyway.

I don't have a problem with lag at all except the one time as mentioned above...so when the box went all strange and laggy on me I did wonder if the problems some guys were having with lag was not in fact a generic "bug" in the software but either a hardware fault or perhaps the result of a corrupted software load in their specific cars.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

The difference in engine and drivetrain should have nothing to do with the lag experienced, VAG have used their DSG on numerous engines ranging from diesels right up to the TT-S and yet all of them don't suffer or behave any different.

Its nice a anecdote footie, but it still does nothing toward establishing facts. What VAG does and how their software operates could be completely different from BMW. It would be just like saying that because BMW's 4L DOHC V8 engine is reliable and works great, so must Audi's 4.2L V8 DOHC engine. The same could be applied to any other similar parts of any other cars. Does such a statement make sense to you? It certainly should not, since clearly some automobiles and some manufacturers have issues that others do not. It is just how things play out when you are dealing with all the complex systems present in an automobile, not to mention all the parties involved in supplying the parts. No one makes a perfect car, not even Lexus.

My argument is that IF (big if) but if the DCT in the 335 is indeed lag free then the software setup in the M3 is seriously flawed for one reason or another.

As I said earlier, the M3 is more complex than the 335i. For one thing it has adjustable throttle sensitivity (Power Button). Things like this are inputs to the M-DCT CU and will most likely necessitate different software. Your theory does have some plausibility but even if you are right and there is some serious flaw somewhere - since the transmission hardware is shared as south points out - then the fix will be a software one.

Perhaps someone on E90 post with a 335i DCT can provide some feedback on whether their car lags. I may just go solicit information myself. And for that matter, it would be further interesting to know if the PROGMAN updates that contain M-DCT fixes have also contained fixes for the 335i DCT. These are the kinds of facts that would be useful for us right now.

I personally expected more from M-Division and to be honest with you, I thought you would have felt the same way.

I expected a fully functioning gearbox, and will continue to. Did I expect it to be flawless from the start? No, I went in assuming it would have issues. From a purely driving pleasure and performance point of view, I was much more disappointed by the shift lag that was present in the original software. BMW fixed that to my satisfaction.

As I said earlier, it is definitely unfortunate that BMW is keeping us in the dark so much with the lowspeed lag. But rather than stress out or get frustrated by it, I just filed a complaint with the NHTSA. If others (in the US) would just do the same, we might actually get some results.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Both the M3 and the 335 use a version of the same Getrag 7DCI600 DCT. As BMW licence the transmission from Getrag would it not be fair to assume that Getrag are responsible for the majority of the software (as well as the hardware) with the software being customised for whatever vehicle mostly by Getrag?
The same transmission is also licenced to Ferrari for the California.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by footie

...
I personally expected more from M-Division and to be honest with you, I thought you would have felt the same way. Yeah it's frustrating but it can be a serious problem, especially as we in Europe have lots of roundabouts (rotors) where you merge with moving traffic on a regular basis.

There is no doubt in my mind that resources that could have been applied to solving the DCT "lag" issue at M were busy working M versions of SUV transmissions. Thank you BMW for bending to the guidance of your marketing department. GM is classic for doing this. Look where it got them.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Both the M3 and the 335 use a version of the same Getrag 7DCI600 DCT. As BMW licence the transmission from Getrag would it not be fair to assume that Getrag are responsible for the majority of the software (as well as the hardware) with the software being customised for whatever vehicle mostly by Getrag?
The same transmission is also licenced to Ferrari for the California.

Perhaps not the majority of the software, but certainly some of it.

Without having any facts, I would speculate that the transmission has a built in controller that operates the very low level functions, and this is programmed by Getrag. Then, BMW might have a controller that sits on top and allows them to customize the transmission for their particular applications. Again this is speculation, but would be somewhat consistent with how some other automated mechanical devices work.

[aus]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Its nice a anecdote footie, but it still does nothing toward establishing facts. What VAG does and how their software operates could be completely different from BMW. It would be just like saying that because BMW's 4L DOHC V8 engine is reliable and works great, so must Audi's 4.2L V8 DOHC engine. The same could be applied to any other similar parts of any other cars. Does such a statement make sense to you? It certainly should not, since clearly some automobiles and some manufacturers have issues that others do not. It is just how things play out when you are dealing with all the complex systems present in an automobile, not to mention all the parties involved in supplying the parts. No one makes a perfect car, not even Lexus.



As I said earlier, the M3 is more complex than the 335i. For one thing it has adjustable throttle sensitivity (Power Button). Things like this are inputs to the M-DCT CU and will most likely necessitate different software. Your theory does have some plausibility but even if you are right and there is some serious flaw somewhere - since the transmission hardware is shared as south points out - then the fix will be a software one.

Perhaps someone on E90 post with a 335i DCT can provide some feedback on whether their car lags. I may just go solicit information myself. And for that matter, it would be further interesting to know if the PROGMAN updates that contain M-DCT fixes have also contained fixes for the 335i DCT. These are the kinds of facts that would be useful for us right now.



I expected a fully functioning gearbox, and will continue to. Did I expect it to be flawless from the start? No, I went in assuming it would have issues. From a purely driving pleasure and performance point of view, I was much more disappointed by the shift lag that was present in the original software. BMW fixed that to my satisfaction.

As I said earlier, it is definitely unfortunate that BMW is keeping us in the dark so much with the lowspeed lag. But rather than stress out or get frustrated by it, I just filed a complaint with the NHTSA. If others (in the US) would just do the same, we might actually get some results.

Just an FYI. if you want to "multi quote" just click the " (quote) tab nexk the the "Quote" button for each post you want to quote, then hit "Reply" at the bottom/top of a page. It'll do all those quotes for you.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by aus

Just an FYI. if you want to "multi quote" just click the " (quote) tab nexk the the "Quote" button for each post you want to quote, then hit "Reply" at the bottom/top of a page. It'll do all those quotes for you.

Thanks but, where would that be applicable here? I only quoted one poster in that post.

Also, why did you quote my entire post to tell me this?

[gr8000]

[footie]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Its nice a anecdote footie, but it still does nothing toward establishing facts. What VAG does and how their software operates could be completely different from BMW. It would be just like saying that because BMW's 4L DOHC V8 engine is reliable and works great, so must Audi's 4.2L V8 DOHC engine. The same could be applied to any other similar parts of any other cars. Does such a statement make sense to you? It certainly should not, since clearly some automobiles and some manufacturers have issues that others do not. It is just how things play out when you are dealing with all the complex systems present in an automobile, not to mention all the parties involved in supplying the parts. No one makes a perfect car, not even Lexus.

Sorry but that statement does hold water in my opinion. Are you saying that VAG have more ability to fine tune software than BMW because that is basically what you are hinting. Their gearbox works perfectly in each application be it diesel, N/A petrol or turbo because the basic design of the gearbox is sound and maybe VAG have already realized that multiple modes doesn't help, it makes everything more complex-ed and the different combination of possible fixes and their effects of other parts/behaviours of the gearbox to be endless.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

As I said earlier, the M3 is more complex than the 335i. For one thing it has adjustable throttle sensitivity (Power Button). Things like this are inputs to the M-DCT CU and will most likely necessitate different software. Your theory does have some plausibility but even if you are right and there is some serious flaw somewhere - since the transmission hardware is shared as south points out - then the fix will be a software one.

Perhaps someone on E90 post with a 335i DCT can provide some feedback on whether their car lags. I may just go solicit information myself. And for that matter, it would be further interesting to know if the PROGMAN updates that contain M-DCT fixes have also contained fixes for the 335i DCT. These are the kinds of facts that would be useful for us right now.

Thinking that the POWER button has anything to do with the issues in hand is just grabbing at straws.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I expected a fully functioning gearbox, and will continue to. Did I expect it to be flawless from the start? No, I went in assuming it would have issues. From a purely driving pleasure and performance point of view, I was much more disappointed by the shift lag that was present in the original software. BMW fixed that to my satisfaction.

As I said earlier, it is definitely unfortunate that BMW is keeping us in the dark so much with the lowspeed lag. But rather than stress out or get frustrated by it, I just filed a complaint with the NHTSA. If others (in the US) would just do the same, we might actually get some results.

Sorry mkoesel but I never expect issues with such things as gearboxes, especially something that could cause serious accidents and possible death. We aren't talking about something threw together in 6 weeks but a car that has been under development for years with possibly a few millions of pounds development work threw at the gearbox on it's own.

It's not something that Porsche, VAG, Nissan or Mitsubishi has gotten wrong so why should BMW f#@k it up.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry but that statement does hold water in my opinion. Are you saying that VAG have more ability to fine tune software than BMW because that is basically what you are hinting.

No footie. This is just more poor deduction on your part. I am simply stating that anecdotal evidence of this sort is absolutely proof of nothing. Facts - that is what this thread is supposed to be about.

VAG is irrelevant as is any other car company. Does no Audi or VW or Porsche have problems? Well? You know, I hear a lot of complaints about the shifting interface to the new PDK transmission. Maybe Porsche is just plain incompetent? Maybe they could not figure out how to make a proper paddle shifting interface? Right? I mean, clearly decades of engineering prowess means nothing - it must simpy be that they are just idiots over there all of the sudden. Must be, eh? Come on, your line of reasoning is ridiculous. No company gets everything right on the first try. None.

Thinking that the POWER button has anything to do with the issues in hand is just grabbing at straws.

It is certainly is not, and it is especially no less likely to add complexity than the multiple shift modes that you seem to be so convinced are contributing to the problem.

Sorry mkoesel but I never expect issues with such things as gearboxes, especially something that could cause serious accidents and possible death. We aren't talking about something threw together in 6 weeks but a car that has been under development for years with possibly a few millions of pounds development work threw at the gearbox on it's own.

We are going in circles. What more do you want? Nothing more can be contributed to the discussion by reiterating the same tired sob story over and over. I, and most everyone else who has this issue, have already voiced our displeasure with the lag and with BMW's continued inaction. Rehashing the same thing again and again is doing nothing but making this thread less readable and less informative.

It appears to me that you want others to join your BMW hate parade and bow to the gods of VAG. I'm sure you'll protest that observation, but frankly this is indeed how you are coming off.

It's not something that Porsche, VAG, Nissan or Mitsubishi has gotten wrong so why should BMW f#@k it up.

Because that is how the world works. Nothing is perfect including Porsche, VAG, Nissan and Mistubishi. Nissan didn't get launch control right the first time (and denied warranties in the process), Porsche blew the shifters, the VAG box forcibly shifts at redline for you in some applications at least, and the Mitsubishi SST probably has its share of quirks too.

Can you please accept that BMW is run by mere mortals, just as all the other companies you cite?

[dar2008]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Without having any facts, I would speculate that the transmission has a built in controller that operates the very low level functions, and this is programmed by Getrag. Then, BMW might have a controller that sits on top and allows them to customize the transmission for their particular applications. Again this is speculation, but would be somewhat consistent with how some other automated mechanical devices work.

You then go on to say in a later post...

"Facts - that is what this thread is supposed to be about"

So from the above, I can deduce that it's ok for you to speculate, but Footie has to stick to facts?

You harp on about sticking to the 'facts' yet from my reading of Footie's posts he has always made it clear that he doesn't 'know' what is causing the lag any more that you or I, he is merely speculating what might be causing it. Of course we all want a solution, but what is your problem with Footie's speculation in the meantime? Plenty of others have speculated in this thread (including you), yet it's Footie you have to argue with and then you have the audacity to state...

"Nothing more can be contributed to the discussion by reiterating the same tired sob story over and over"

...but isn't that what you are doing with your continued obsession with taking pot shots at Footie?

I don't understand. I suspect the answer may lie in another uncalled for statement of yours that...

"It appears to me that you want others to join your BMW hate parade and bow to the gods of VAG."

What's that all about? Where did that come from? Nowhere in this thread is Footie demonstrating any BMW hatred, quite the opposite where many times he has cited his pleasure with his M3 and indeed the DCT gearbox despite it's issues! So I just don't understand where you're coming from with your attitude.

Just my 2p worth.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by dar2008

You then go on to say in a later post...

"Facts - that is what this thread is supposed to be about"

So from the above, I can deduce that it's ok for you to speculate, but Footie has to stick to facts?

Wow, what is it with you guys? I clearly labeld that as speculation - you even included that part of the quote in your post.

There is a plain difference between searching out answers and merely ridiculing and throwing out wild accusations. You know this, sir, so why the attack on me? I've done nothing here but try to help find a solution. Footie has gone on and on, making outrageous leaps in logic and at every turn he takes the opportunity to insist that the problem must be more major than what the current situation suggests, often citing VAG and other imperfect OEMs as his basis. It is rabid speculation and it is not at all helpful. In fact, it is blatantly inciteful.

You harp on about sticking to the 'facts' yet from my reading of Footie's posts he has always made it clear that he doesn't 'know' what is causing the lag any more that you or I, he is merely speculating what might be causing it. Of course we all want a solution, but what is your problem with Footie's speculation in the meantime? Plenty of others have speculated in this thread, yet it's Footie you have to argue with and then you have the audacity to state...

"Nothing more can be contributed to the discussion by reiterating the same tired sob story over and over"

...but isn't that what you are doing with your continued obsession with taking pot shots at Footie?

Again, I find your assessment strange and flawed. Speculating in an effort to seek a fix is a different matter entirely than doing so in order to take shots at a person or entity. Sure, the former can develop into the latter throughout a passionate discussion like this - but my point is exactly that this sort of distraction serves no one and nothing in any productive fashion.

You certainly agree, even though you'd rather scrutinize my words and find some fault in them, than take the above ideal as a basis for my action and simply join me in helping keep this thread relevant.

I don't understand. I suspect the answer may lie in another uncalled for statement of yours that...

"It appears to me that you want others to join your BMW hate parade and bow to the gods of VAG."

What's that all about? Where did that come from? Nowhere in this thread is Footie demonstrating any BMW hatred, quite the opposite where many times he has cited his pleasure with his M3 and indeed the DCT gearbox despite it's issues! So I just don't understand where you're coming from with your attitude.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Furthermore, I am unable to limit my opinions on the matter to this thread, since I have been here reading footies posts from the beginning. If you care to, you could take the time to read his past posts also and you'll see from where my statements come.

But now we are diverging even further off topic, aren't we? Oh and I should add that I have welcomed footie's comments on this forum just as anyone elses. You'll note, if you take the time to read all of my posts, that I actually made this clear once already in this thread. However, it is when the tone turns to bashing and needless one-ups-manship that I take issue - and I'll bet others do too.

[footie]

I still struggle the believe the length of time given to this forum and the amount of pleasure I have stated with my ownership of the M3 that when I alone voice my dislike for something BMW has done which I might add everyone else does from time to time that I am labelled the hater.

Sure I like Audis among others but stating a fact that all of the other DCT boxes don't suffer this DANGEROUS problem does not make me dislike or hate BMW as a whole, just that I hate how they have handled this and other problems associated with the gearbox, after all we aren't talking about a Ford Fiesta at £9k but a car costing over £57k in my case.

This is my most expensive car to-date, as will probably be the same for a few here and it's the only one that after close to 8mths of ownership still has problems that the dealer scratches his head at when I mention the lag.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Sure I like Audis among others but stating a fact that all of the other DCT boxes don't suffer this DANGEROUS problem does not make me dislike or hate BMW as a whole, just that I hate how they have handled this and other problems associated with the gearbox, after all we aren't talking about a Ford Fiesta at £9k but a car costing over £57k in my case.

I'll have to side with mkoesel on this one. No matter what the issue, engine, transmission, AWD, everything always comes back to the flaws of BWM and the perfection of Audi. We know you love your car, you bought it! It is just the contradictions that roll on and on. Mkoesel did a great job of listing just a few of the flaws present across the board with a bunch of different flavors of DCTs. Did you miss that?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Can you please accept that BMW is run by mere mortals, just as all the other companies you cite?

Exactly.

I'll also side with mkoesel on the intricate link between throttle and DCT. No one can deny this very tight and complex link. Then when you concede that the sport button controls the throttle you must also admit that this added layer of complexity is a relevant differnce not present in the 335i.

Lastly, I think the evidence that this same transmission is used on the 335i and F. California provide plenty of evidence that the transmission is not "fatally" or mechanically flawed. I am certainly speculating, well it is actually a bit better than that - I would actually call it strong inductive reasoning - this leads me to the conclusion that the F. California DOES not have this lag. This is a software issue. The differences between the first two versions of the software make that abundantly clear to me as well.

[footie]

The list of flaws with the others are as what?

Porsche choose to use they setup on the paddles because that has been the same with their Tiptronic system for years now. It's hardly a flaw that is either software, gearbox design or dangerous. VAG's DSG upshifts at rev limit is again annoying but hardly a flaw in design or dangerous. Then there is Nissan's LC causing transmission failures, how does this relate to a flaw with the gearbox and in any case Nissan quickly fixed the problem within weeks not the months we are still waiting.

I state again that because it me complaining about the problems that I am somehow addressed as a BMW hater and because I included VAG in my list of examples not suffering any of these issues that I must be pro-Audi. Guys it's getting a bit long in the tooth this constant labelling.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

The list of flaws with the others are as what?

Porsche choose to use they setup on the paddles because that has been the same with their Tiptronic system for years now. It's hardly a flaw that is either software, gearbox design or dangerous. VAG's DSG upshifts at rev limit is again annoying but hardly a flaw in design or dangerous. Then there is Nissan's LC causing transmission failures, how does this relate to a flaw with the gearbox and in any case Nissan quickly fixed the problem within weeks not the months we are still waiting.

Boy that sure sounds like it was straight from the apologists cookbook. Page 23 perhaps?

And furthermore, what of it?

The sole point I was making is that the companies you list are perfectly capable of botching things or designing things in ways that upset their customers. And so what possibly purpose is there to bringing them into the discussion? None.

Your are the only one drawing comparisons like this footie. Look around you. No one else is making the allusions you are. And do you know why? Because this type of discussion is adding nothing - absolutely zip, ziltch, zero - to the topic. It is only adding noise, causing needless diversion from the real topic at hand, and not the least important - harming your own credibility.

And let's not forget the statement you made that started off this little exchange.

At what point will the optimists (swamp included) conceed that I was indeed correct and it's basic design has the flaw and no amount of upgrades will cure or eliminate it completely.

Well now, does that not sound both a bit childish and self righteous? One might even go so far as to call that trolling. So maybe footie, you are getting the very reaction that your post was asking for. Don't you think?

I state again that because it me complaining about the problems that I am somehow addressed as a BMW hater and because I included VAG in my list of examples not suffering any of these issues that I must be pro-Audi. Guys it's getting a bit long in the tooth this constant labelling.

And guess what? Constant talk of BMW's triumphs, successes and avoided mishaps on an Audi forum would most certainly be met with the same resounding "who the f*ck cares?". You see, footie, it turns out that the type of reaction you'll illicit from others is not so hard to predict. It is rather elementary - people really do make impressions (lasting ones) based on the way you conduct yourself around them. And when you are constantly taking advantage of every passing opportunity to get your blows in, well people sit up and take notice. If you don't like the way you are being received, then maybe a prudent thing to do is adjust your presentation. Or don't. It's up to you. But if you must continue the Audi celebration and worship, couldn't you at least do so in the proper "M3 vs..." forum?

[dar2008]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If you don't like the way you are being received, then maybe a prudent thing to do is adjust your presentation. Or don't. It's up to you.

Truly unbelievable

Maybe it's just a US vs European thing, I just don't get it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by dar2008

Truly unbelievable

Maybe it's just a US vs European thing, I just don't get it.

Wow. Amazing bit of irony there. I believe you've just further reinforced my point. Nicely done.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'll have to side with mkoesel on this one...

I'm with footie. After a year, for God sakes, the situation seems even worse. I speculated way back then that early automatic buyers were going to get to know the name of their sevice advisor's dog (and chuckled once or twice when the reports began coming in), but this is ridiculous - and now, safety is a real issue.

I speculated because in my experience BMW has a long and rich history of not quite believing that their cars can have real field problems, and thus a fairly lackadaisical record in terms of early fixes. This is sort of/kind of understandable (and pride in your product is an altogether good thing), but they've really screwed the pooch on this one.

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'll also side with mkoesel on the intricate link between throttle and DCT. No one can deny this very tight and complex link. Then when you concede that the sport button controls the throttle you must also admit that this added layer of complexity is a relevant differnce not present in the 335i.

Who gives a damn? It's been a year! There is no adequate excuse for this situation. Anybody who owns one should be mad as hell right now, whether or not they've had a problem. Reason? They may hit some bug right now that they've never had before, just because they haven't hit that circumstance before. Or, next time they're in the shop and BMW mandates an update, they're probably screwed.

Letting DOT know is a good thing, but those notes ought to be copied to the current BMW presidents (USA and corporate) along with a scathing letter.

Is BMW incompetent? Hell no.

Is the group responsible for this incredible series of screwups incompetent? You bet your ass they are.

Bruce

[footie]

I'm still struggling to see why any of my statements should be causing you to label me the way you are, I re-read my posts and suppling differences between rivals is only my way of highlighting why I am so annoyed with the lack of action present from BMW in fixing this.

If you think that a year's inability to fix this problem is acceptable on a car costing this much then we clearly aren't seeing eye to eye on this subject. I remember the snide remarks by many here about Nissan's problems but look who fixed this bloody quickly and no one here giving the verbal pat on the back to Nissan for a job well done.

I'm a straight talker and yes it does get me into conflict with people (youself included) but I tell it how I see it and I can't see how that should affect my credibility.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

After a year, for God sakes, the situation seems even worse. I speculated way back then that early automatic buyers were going to get to know the name of their sevice advisor's dog (and chuckled once or twice when the reports began coming in), but this is ridiculous - and now, safety is a real issue.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

...but they've really screwed the pooch on this one.

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Is the group responsible for this incredible series of screwups incompetent? You bet your ass they are.

I have to ask (again, I believe) have you driven an M-DCT M3?

Although the lag can feel like a good second at worst I am fairly sure it is never anywhere close to that long. Although a lack of response to the gas pedal seems like an obvious safety issue, in a car with a fraction of a second lag to throttle and 400+ hp it is a bit of a stretch to call this a safety issue.

I know it doesn't mean much to you since I am such a blind BMW fan boy but this transmission still gets a 9.5/10. Some anecdotal evidence suggests that most DCT owners agree with me on this.

Like I just said a few pages back this is the pimple on the supermodels face. It is easy to get worked up about, I certainly do not like the lag but it is really the sole flaw of this system.

RJ: Sounds really promising. Test the hell out of that sucker and let us know! Can you find out the software version number. This is critical.

[swamp2]

With the help of South we have confirmed evidence of the lag in the 335i with DCT.

Here's the description of a guy that spent 10,000km in a E92 335i DCT so far: When approaching an intersection and rolling with 5-20 km/h after depressing the accelerator he gets the same lag (some tenths of a second). Then the car jumps/jerks while accelerating and while crossing the intersection. He's able to duplicate the occurrence, but so far he had it only in manual mode (he doesn't use auto mode at all). So far he's been thinking that this lag might come from the engine, but I'm (I being South) quite sure this is just the same lag we have been discussing here and thus it's coming from the transmission. We think BMW provided a software update for the DCT in the 335 either which reduced this lag, but didn't remove it completely.

I am also with this fellow that the fault, although intimately related to the DCT, is actually with the engine control. I do not believe this is gear indecision or a delay while both clutches are disengaged. The problem is a complete lack of THROTTLE response during the lag. This is simply a reflection of how tightly intertwined the ECU and TCU software are.

I suppose foot will take this as further evidence of the transmission being "fatally flawed" or "flawed by design". I'd simply say that the 335 and M3 use a bunch of the same flawed software...