Track tire decisions

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

The new one is the Sport Cup 2R, which is basically a "cheater" race tire.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Sport+Cup+2+R

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ally-here.html


Per the above Rennlist discussion, it's basically the Cup 2 with a race compound 1 or 2mm thick to set really fast lap times.

Makes sense. They are tired of being challenges by even ancient E46s so they are getting a better tire for the GTx RSs

I wonder if this means they can now run DOT-legal slicks like R1s and R7s.

Perhaps now we will start seeing less GT3 RS accidents, or maybe they will stop having to pit because they are getting 'greasy' tires when being chased by M3s.
Because, you know, 325 PSC2 tires on a 3100lb car have a huge tendency to get greasy. RE71s on 3700lb cars don't at all, it is inversely proportional to the weight of the car

[VictorH]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Makes sense. They are tired of being challenges by even ancient E46s so they are getting a better tire for the GTx RSs

I wonder if this means they can now run DOT-legal slicks like R1s and R7s.

Perhaps now we will start seeing less GT3 RS accidents, or maybe they will stop having to pit because they are getting 'greasy' tires when being chased by M3s.
Because, you know, 325 PSC2 tires on a 3100lb car have a huge tendency to get greasy. RE71s on 3700lb cars don't at all, it is inversely proportional to the weight of the car

Sounds like you are hanging out with a few too many snobby P-car drivers. The ones in my group last weekend were pretty nice.

I have to say though, there is something quite satisfying watching a new 991 generation GT3 take 7-8 laps to chase you down and on the last lap of the session finally get by you (no I was not holding him up! I gave him a point by even though I still had a good gap on him, but we were entering the back straight and his car is good for 170 and mine just 150 )

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by VictorH

Sounds like you are hanging out with a few too many snobby P-car drivers. The ones in my group last weekend were pretty nice.

I have to say though, there is something quite satisfying watching a new 991 generation GT3 take 7-8 laps to chase you down and on the last lap of the session finally get by you (no I was not holding him up! I gave him a point by even though I still had a good gap on him, but we were entering the back straight and his car is good for 170 and mine just 150 )

Most P guys at the track are quite nice, the PCA groups I run with are great people which I why I spend so much time with them

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Most P guys at the track are quite nice, the PCA groups I run with are great people which I why I spend so much time with them

Lol...right! Most p car drivers used to be BMW car drivers. Just a thought there...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Lol...right! Most p car drivers used to be BMW car drivers. Just a thought there...

I fondly recall the 991 GT3 RS guy with the weistec (whatever) package last year which was actually fast. He had come from an E9X

People need to spend more time learning how to drive and pay less attention to horsecrap like 'motorsport pedigree' and what the Ring time is. Are you a pro driver? No? Then STFU about Motorsport anything. Learn how to drive whatever you have and stop being the jackass in the GT3 RS or whatever holding up ancient street cars by dragging them on the straights.

[dparm]

Sounds like a stroke of bad luck with someone just being a jackass. My experience with Porsche drivers has been that they're very pedantic and a bit elitist, but generally nice people.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I fondly recall the 991 GT3 RS guy with the weistec (whatever) package last year which was actually fast. He had come from an E9X

People need to spend more time learning how to drive and pay less attention to horsecrap like 'motorsport pedigree' and what the Ring time is. Are you a pro driver? No? Then STFU about Motorsport anything. Learn how to drive whatever you have and stop being the jackass in the GT3 RS or whatever holding up ancient street cars by dragging them on the straights.

I tell people ring times don't mean sht. You can strip, put Cup 2 tires and roll cage like in Type R and advertise the time as if their factory vehicle could run 7:4x. Put the same Cup 2 tires on E46 CSL for example and it will shame most modern vehicles.

Often times the naive 911 drivers come to Suzuka thinking "they got this"only to post sub 3 min lap times and getting their asses spanked by S2Ks and M3s running 2:30 near stock because RR layout is typically the most difficult to drive at the limit.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I tell people ring times don't mean sht. You can strip, put Cup 2 tires and roll cage like in Type R and advertise the time as if their factory vehicle could run 7:4x. Put the same Cup 2 tires on E46 CSL for example and it will shame most modern vehicles.

Often times the naive 911 drivers come to Suzuka thinking "they got this"only to post sub 3 min lap times and getting their asses spanked by S2Ks and M3s running 2:30 near stock because RR layout is typically the most difficult to drive at the limit.

Well, it does provide us with some entertainment

The same thing goes for mods... so many BBKs/suspensions/aero on cars that don't need them.

[lutfy]

Trying to keep convo in the same thread.

A bit has changed this year. We have RE71R which has proven to be faster than most 100TW tires (and we know why with Yokohama A052 taking a slight lead (most SCCA Autox winners during National were on them).

There is AR1 and Falken 660 out now as well.

Hence bunch of options.

Current king of the hill (non slicks and being DOT) are Hoosier R7.

I have gone through 4 sets of R7 and while they rock first 5-6HC performance starts to degrade ever so slightly and after 10 or around 12HC they are not competitive. Lots of thread but grip is anywhere between 1 to almost 2 secs (on larger tracks) off by then. Toast.

As expected.

This can get real costly real fast. While I dont expect tires to stay strong like the NT01 or RR do but not fall off the cliff this fast either.

We dont get Yokohama A050 or Direzza DZ03G in the US.

Anything else out there which is somewhat consistent? Anyone with experience with both BFG R1 and R7 chime?

I got myself a set of A052 and have a set of R7 mounted. Its a PITA to carry 12 wheels to the track (A052 for practice, R7 for TT fast laps and preserving to 10HC and Hoosier H20 for rain).

I'd like to have 1 set of dry competitive tire. Or maybe I am being wishful.

Cheers,

Lutfy

PS: Difference on Summit Point Main, Toyo R888R 1:24 Toyo RR were a full sec faster to 1:23.6 and Hoosier 1:21.6 (R7 sticker). Similar temps on a crisp cool day.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Trying to keep convo in the same thread.

I got myself a set of A052 and have a set of R7 mounted. Its a PITA to carry 12 wheels to the track (A052 for practice, R7 for TT fast laps and preserving to 10HC and Hoosier H20 for rain).

I'd like to have 1 set of dry competitive tire. Or maybe I am being wishful.

Cheers,

Lutfy

I don't have much to comment on R-comps, but I will say I just had a set of A052 on my car for autocross purposes and while they were fantastic, my full-weight e92 ate them up in less than 50 60-second courses.
I think a set would only last 3-4 days on track, but uncertain as I haven't used them on a track yet.
The A052 I have heard is decent is damp-wet so maybe that's a good answer to leave the H20's at home? it sounds like any way you slice it you might have to take 3 sets based on your intended TT use. Hard to work around preserving the R7's it seems any other way.

[rhyary]

I have accumulated tires from eBay in the last three months to be used in the 2020 season. I wanted away to easily record what tires I am on, and what are my lap times. I am using AiM software. Since the driver and the vehicle are always the same, I used those fields to define my front and rear tires I have in inventory.

It will be, I think, to document how wrong I am for running two different tires front and rear, some older new tires (2016,2017,2018 and 2019) and averaging $200/tire

I reserve the right to indulge and buy one set of new R7 to try to get into 1:34 at NYST or below 60sec at LRP

This is what it will look like:

[kyippee]

I have to report back, the Nankang AR-1 are a great tire! They can take a beating on my full weight E92 M3. Shaved 2 seconds, going from low 1:59s (275 square NT01) to low 1:57s (295 square AR-1).

Should be good for ~16 heat cycles if you beat on it. Only needs ~3 laps to break in. Peak grip in first few heat cycles, but doesn't drop off too bad. You'll run out of grip (heat cycles) before tread.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have accumulated tires from eBay in the last three months to be used in the 2020 season. I wanted away to easily record what tires I am on, and what are my lap times. I am using AiM software. Since the driver and the vehicle are always the same, I used those fields to define my front and rear tires I have in inventory.

It will be, I think, to document how wrong I am for running two different tires front and rear, some older new tires (2016,2017,2018 and 2019) and averaging $200/tire

I reserve the right to indulge and buy one set of new R7 to try to get into 1:34 at NYST or below 60sec at LRP

This is what it will look like:

Thank you! Appears you gotta pay to play (fast). Nothing beats R7 (except A7 for DOT R) and one needs to budget 10-12HC max for these (competitive). First 5 laps are MAGIC. I was able to break the 60 sec barrier a few times (in the same session) on sticker R7 on a 194whp NA Toyota 86. 12-12HC R7 were good for high 1:01, low 1:02s.

1) Yoko for practice and DE
2) R7 for 1-2 sessions Sat/Sun for the timed runs
3) H20 (still havent used as of yet) for rains

Very excited and curious to run A052 and will report back with findings.

Cheers,

Lutfy

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

I have to report back, the Nankang AR-1 are a great tire! They can take a beating on my full weight E92 M3. Shaved 2 seconds, going from low 1:59s (275 square NT01) to low 1:57s (295 square AR-1).

Should be good for ~16 heat cycles if you beat on it. Only needs ~3 laps to break in. Peak grip in first few heat cycles, but doesn't drop off too bad. You'll run out of grip (heat cycles) before tread.

That is exactly what I have heard. Fast till 15HC. Guess we have 3 tiers of R Comps.

40TW+
100TW+
200TW+

Somehow 200 TW tires are as fast or faster than 100TW tires... But we know why

Lutfy

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

I have to report back, the Nankang AR-1 are a great tire! They can take a beating on my full weight E92 M3. Shaved 2 seconds, going from low 1:59s (275 square NT01) to low 1:57s (295 square AR-1).

How much do you attribute to the extra 20mm of width?

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

How much do you attribute to the extra 20mm of width?

Not sure. Maybe 0.5 seconds? I hear people saying to expect to drop 1-2 seconds moving from NT01 to AR1, so that would line up. Let's say 1.5 secs!

(On a 3 mile / 2 minute lap)

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Not sure. Maybe 0.5 seconds? I hear people saying to expect to drop 1-2 seconds moving from NT01 to AR1, so that would line up. Let's say 1.5 secs!

(On a 3 mile / 2 minute lap)

How many sessions did you get out of NT01 before cording?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Thank you! Appears you gotta pay to play (fast).



Lutfy

The main issue I am after can be boiled down to this: Can I go fast enough with $200/tire that is relevant to $400 tire?

Meaning: At NYST, unless you are going 1:37-1:38, what you learn is not that relevant to 1:34.

So, If I can't go 1:37 with $200/tire then my suspension setup may not work for 1:34.

My believe is that I CAN go 1:36 with 2016 MPSCup2 and Proxa RR 2018 and solid rear bushings. And hopefully not overheating with DCT do88 now installed.

And therefore my new -3.5 camber will show if I demolish the outer edge like I did to an R7 using -3.0.


It is all a theory at this point but I think I am in good position to find out this summer some useful information.

Lastly, it is only about if you do 25 HPDE track days in a summer. if you do 4 trackdays, Just getting any of the 100-200TW tires will do, or just get R7.

If you are competing W2W or Time-attack nothing I am doing is relevant

[gmx]

I would be very cautious of running varying compounds like that.
Ran some scrub Z221 on the front. Better/faster than the AR1 and more consistent. MPSC2 in the rear.
Had no balance whatsoever. My fastest time was with 38psi hot and dampers dialed up in the front whereas for this weight, the Z221 likes around 33-35. End result? I was .7 off my PB set on non-fresh AD08Rs (around Z222/RS4 pace).

This guy's feedback about AR1 is pretty spot on (read the description):

They're also popular as a budget option for hillclimbs since they're good from cold and easily gain time in the first few corners while lasting bit longer than the other soft compound R-comps.

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

How many sessions did you get out of NT01 before cording?

I think around 20-25!

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The main issue I am after can be boiled down to this: Can I go fast enough with $200/tire that is relevant to $400 tire?

Meaning: At NYST, unless you are going 1:37-1:38, what you learn is not that relevant to 1:34.

So, If I can't go 1:37 with $200/tire then my suspension setup may not work for 1:34.

My believe is that I CAN go 1:36 with 2016 MPSCup2 and Proxa RR 2018 and solid rear bushings. And hopefully not overheating with DCT do88 now installed.

And therefore my new -3.5 camber will show if I demolish the outer edge like I did to an R7 using -3.0.


It is all a theory at this point but I think I am in good position to find out this summer some useful information.

Lastly, it is only about if you do 25 HPDE track days in a summer. if you do 4 trackdays, Just getting any of the 100-200TW tires will do, or just get R7.

If you are competing W2W or Time-attack nothing I am doing is relevant

I miss doing DE and want to do more this year (I still learn, apply what I have learnt off track and have a lot of fun with it). With that, the A052 will be the DE tire.

R7 staged for 1-2 sessions Sat/Sun retire past 12HC irrespectively (after that is false economics trying to run those to cord). My problem was also an oversteery car since I got the OSG diff and now went down on rear rates. Perhaps compensating Hoosier grip for handling issue and blaming tires after they start to fall. I will know better this year.

The issue has been in time attack, there are a good bunch of variety and lots of improvement (new tires/longevity etc). I participated in an AER race earlier this year and was amazed how long the RE71 lasted given its massive grip. They were very good in the rain. Sure we ran RS4 Saturday for the 9 hour and RE for Sunday as we had an hour break at Road ATL.

Point is, R7 falls into a weird category. They are slower than Pirelli slicks (take off) and faster than the 100/200 variety. Wanted to see if anyone had experience with BFG R1 (will try this season and see if they last a while past the 12HC mark I have experienced). Its other closest competitor Toyo RR 40TW is NOT even close.

Car is built to the hilt in class with aero, MCS etc and only variable is 'tire'.

Will report out on A052 (got a new set to try).

Lutfy

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

I think around 20-25!

Really? How long of sessions? I typically get about ~40 heat cycles/sessions out of them with the E92.

Originally Posted by lutfy

I miss doing DE and want to do more this year (I still learn, apply what I have learnt off track and have a lot of fun with it). With that, the A052 will be the DE tire.

R7 staged for 1-2 sessions Sat/Sun retire past 12HC irrespectively (after that is false economics trying to run those to cord). My problem was also an oversteery car since I got the OSG diff and now went down on rear rates. Perhaps compensating Hoosier grip for handling issue and blaming tires after they start to fall. I will know better this year.

The issue has been in time attack, there are a good bunch of variety and lots of improvement (new tires/longevity etc). I participated in an AER race earlier this year and was amazed how long the RE71 lasted given its massive grip. They were very good in the rain. Sure we ran RS4 Saturday for the 9 hour and RE for Sunday as we had an hour break at Road ATL.

Point is, R7 falls into a weird category. They are slower than Pirelli slicks (take off) and faster than the 100/200 variety. Wanted to see if anyone had experience with BFG R1 (will try this season and see if they last a while past the 12HC mark I have experienced). Its other closest competitor Toyo RR 40TW is NOT even close.

Car is built to the hilt in class with aero, MCS etc and only variable is 'tire'.

Will report out on A052 (got a new set to try).

Lutfy

R1's are quite similar to R7's. Maybe a fraction slower, but wear better and less dramatic drop from heat cycles.

RR's are actually a 100TW compound. No idea why Toyo labels them as a 40. The NT01, R888R and RR use the same rubber compound.