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      10-03-2019, 09:33 AM   #23
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Have some comments here. Soft springs are not going to cause rubbing, poor or aggressive wheel fitment will. Yank the springs and let the car rest on bump stops and rubbing through the finder liners should not occur.

Running a car on the track vs. the road should not by itself necessitate stiffer springs. You match the springs to the amount of grip the tires are able to generate so that the springs allow the car to settle some degree into the bumpstops on steady state cornering. If the chassis is crashing into the bumpstops this is a damper (shock) problem.

I've run Ohlins (various types) on a different cars for quite some time as well as contact with many DE and racers running Ohlins. The road and track kit is absolutely not out of its element on the track. The fundamental reason for swapping out to a stiffer spring is typically the DE crowd runs stickier tires which can generate greater cornering force which equates to increased weight transfer. A spring's purpose is to keep the car off the ground, you increase weight (weight transfer) you increase spring rate. Think of race cars setting up for a rain session. Less friction from wet surface, less grip from rain tires, less weight transfer --> less spring rate fitted for the session. If you are controlling chassis movement with higher spring and/or anti-rollbar rates instead of rebound force from the damper then you are likely losing significant amount of grip compared to a proper setup.

If you are running square 285 R comps, yeah, stiffer spring. But unless you've gone mad with the spring rate this should be within the adjustment range for the Ohlins to handle. I know this is a bit rant'ish but I've never understood how "Ohlins R&T kit good for road but not track capable" has somehow become a common knowledge thing. I know of fully caged, wheel-to-wheel chassis running these shocks and winning races. Now that I think of it, I owned one of them.
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      10-03-2019, 09:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Chronos View Post
I know of fully caged, wheel-to-wheel chassis running these shocks and winning races. Now that I think of it, I owned one of them.
Unless you're running a full interior, which I assume you are not, you're probably closer to 3000lbs. That changes things. A lot.

I certainly don't need a lesson on shocks and spring rates. Bring any E9x M3 to Mosport on Ohlins R&T and you WILL rub right through the front fender liners. At the bottom of 2, and 4 entering 5.

Same situation with H&R Race Springs on Stock Wheels and Tires.

Perhaps you drive on mostly flat tracks in the US. If you haven't experienced anything with drastic elevation change, I can understand your confusion.
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      10-03-2019, 10:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by doogee View Post
Unless you're running a full interior, which I assume you are not, you're probably closer to 3000lbs. That changes things. A lot.

I certainly don't need a lesson on shocks and spring rates. Bring any E9x M3 to Mosport on Ohlins R&T and you WILL rub right through the front fender liners. At the bottom of 2, and 4 entering 5.

Same situation with H&R Race Springs on Stock Wheels and Tires.

Perhaps you drive on mostly flat tracks in the US. If you haven't experienced anything with drastic elevation change, I can understand your confusion.
Yup. VIR, Watkins, Road ATL, Laguna Seca. Yup, flat, flat, flat. As a pancake. Zandvoort and Nurburgring flat as well as lacking significant compression events, but admittedly outside US per your statement. And those Ohlins were not on a BMW, thus my added confusion I suppose.
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      10-03-2019, 10:30 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by doogee View Post
Yes but when your tires rub through your front fender liners and take paint off the actual body of the car, you know the springs are too soft. I don't think Ohlins did much testing with these spring rates. And my car is by no means "slammed".

They're excellent shocks, I just don't think they should have the word "track" in their name. They're definitely meant for street comfort and not track use out of the box.

I suppose this is why with the F80 and newer version you are allowed to choose spring rates.
So where your shock bottoms out it rubs the fender liner? Could be a setup issue, but I'm not an expert. I have run multiple tracks including Palmer which is basically a giant hill, no rubbing. I'm running RE-71r's and I don't feel like they overwhelm the suspension at all. I'm sure a set of Hoosiers or whatever would be different but then we're a long way from street car.

As for the nomenclature, I don't really take issue with it. For street / track balance they are Goldilocks. They feel like a very sophisticated set of dampers. If you email Ohlins they will happily do you a version revalved with stiffer springs. Would a set of MCS 2WNR be better for track use? Absolutely but they are twice the price.. there's always something better.
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      10-03-2019, 11:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Chronos View Post
If you are running square 285 R comps, yeah, stiffer spring. But unless you've gone mad with the spring rate this should be within the adjustment range for the Ohlins to handle. I know this is a bit rant'ish but I've never understood how "Ohlins R&T kit good for road but not track capable" has somehow become a common knowledge thing. I know of fully caged, wheel-to-wheel chassis running these shocks and winning races. Now that I think of it, I owned one of them.
I run a 700 front spring but not on the R&T of course.

The stock suspension is 'track capable' as well, but not ideal. R&T is more capable, but definitely not in contention with full track suspensions like MCS/JRZ which can also be driven on the street quite happily

And people are capable of being very fast with stock suspension, R&T or a tree trunk instead of shocks. That doesn't change that they aren't the right tool for the job.

If anyone is buying R&T and tracking often I think they're making a big mistake. You do not need a stripped out, aero car with full slicks to need a more track oriented suspension.
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      10-03-2019, 11:45 AM   #28
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+1 on 15 (15-20 tried) clicks out on the road. Even with 19" PSS 30 series the ride is butter like. When on the fwy the suspension moves like that of a S500. Quick subtle movements ever so gently soaking up the road especially compared to stock.

Haven't been on the track yet, but I have driven over some damn big overpass bridge transitions that will launch a car.
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      10-03-2019, 11:57 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I run a 700 front spring but not on the R&T of course.

The stock suspension is 'track capable' as well, but not ideal. R&T is more capable, but definitely not in contention with full track suspensions like MCS/JRZ which can also be driven on the street quite happily

And people are capable of being very fast with stock suspension, R&T or a tree trunk instead of shocks. That doesn't change that they aren't the right tool for the job.

If anyone is buying R&T and tracking often I think they're making a big mistake. You do not need a stripped out, aero car with full slicks to need a more track oriented suspension.
Yes, and yes.

My thought here though where I deviate from you a bit is price. When putting the race car I mentioned together, we went with "we've got a set of R&Ts laying around, let's use those instead MCS / KW / TTX, $$$." Pound for pound you get a very sophisticated and capable force curve from the R&T kit out of the box. The compromise is part of that damper force is tuned in mind of street comfort. As well as wipers and seals and bushings that can deal with street crud / street driven maintenance intervals. The reverse is true for "race" shocks on the street. There is always a compromise somewhere.

Fundamentally there is nothing in the way of making the R&T body and internals working much more like a full race shock in terms of force curve. But then you've got the blow-off like valve in it that you may not really be using, etc. Plus the single adjustment if you really want to get into fine tuning. The issue, in my mind, comes in from the frequent desire to run overly stiff springs which the R&T does not have, therefore conclusion R&T undesirable for track use.
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      10-03-2019, 12:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Chronos View Post
The issue, in my mind, comes in from the frequent desire to run overly stiff springs which the R&T does not have, therefore conclusion R&T undesirable for track use.
Good and very interesting discussion guys. Could you please clarify the above? There are after-market stiffer springs for Ohlins R&T if you so desire no? The beauty of having after-market coilover is *if* driver so desires, there are stiffer spring rates for you to try. In the Ohlins I would think up to 500-600/800 is acceptable no?

For the fun of discussion (I know - different car, different weight, system approach, etc.) for 911, in general:
Typical aggressive street 400/600
Typical track 600/800 and up. Personal preference varies but for most people, this type of rate is no longer street-able, IMHO. Same thing for JRZ etc., fantastic and the best, but, in general, not street-able for most.

Of course always a "system approach": spring rates selected for track and application, then damper and sway bar adjustment and tire, etc.
This is why I think/hope Ohlins 340/690 will be perfect for me. The stock car as is has too much body roll and subjectively a lazy-feeling/ponderous car on mountain roads, relatively. I've never been a fan of electronic damper control: it seems in trying to do everything good, it does nothing perfect.
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      10-03-2019, 01:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Good and very interesting discussion guys. Could you please clarify the above? There are after-market stiffer springs for Ohlins R&T if you so desire no? The beauty of having after-market coilover is *if* driver so desires, there are stiffer spring rates for you to try. In the Ohlins I would think up to 500-600/800 is acceptable no?

For the fun of discussion (I know - different car, different weight, system approach, etc.) for 911, in general:
Typical aggressive street 400/600
Typical track 600/800 and up. Personal preference varies but for most people, this type of rate is no longer street-able, IMHO. Same thing for JRZ etc., fantastic and the best, but, in general, not street-able for most.

Of course always a "system approach": spring rates selected for track and application, then damper and sway bar adjustment and tire, etc.
This is why I think/hope Ohlins 340/690 will be perfect for me. The stock car as is has too much body roll and subjectively a lazy-feeling/ponderous car on mountain roads, relatively. I've never been a fan of electronic damper control: it seems in trying to do everything good, it does nothing perfect.
Out of the box Ohlins will handle 25-30% increase in spring rates give or take, the swift spring conversion which up's the rates to 4xx and 7xx is a well trodden path. Putting track use to one side - If your just fast road driving coming from stock suspension, I suspect you will be very impressed with the all round capability of the Ohlins. They are both more supple and more planted at the same time, they take out the laziness and lack of control you get in the stock suspension particularly in transitions. It makes the e9x feel more 'sports car' rather than 'GT' out of the box. By far the best upgrade I made to my car, significantly improved the driving experience.
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      10-03-2019, 04:16 PM   #32
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Cannga, per your quote, I was just saying many perceive the springs in the kit as too soft and write off all of it as not track capable. Two errors in my mind. I think you got a solid answer from Montaver on the rest of it.
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      10-04-2019, 12:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
I have H&R ARB and love them.
Thanks. Looking at the sway bar: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-h-and-r-...-kit/72053~hr/

It seems to be non-adjustable (I see only one hole at the end of the bars), is it correct? I have time with this as I like to modify suspension in steps, first coilover, then if not happy after adjustment, sway bar/tire/etc. But can't help looking at all these yummy toys.
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      10-04-2019, 12:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Out of the box Ohlins will handle 25-30% increase in spring rates give or take, the swift spring conversion which up's the rates to 4xx and 7xx is a well trodden path. Putting track use to one side - If your just fast road driving coming from stock suspension, I suspect you will be very impressed with the all round capability of the Ohlins. They are both more supple and more planted at the same time, they take out the laziness and lack of control you get in the stock suspension particularly in transitions. It makes the e9x feel more 'sports car' rather than 'GT' out of the box. By far the best upgrade I made to my car, significantly improved the driving experience.
Thanks for your input. This is music to my ears - fingers crossed. We are placing order for the Ohlins. The people doing alignment will be West End Alignment in Gardena (very well known in Porsche circle also).

1. I've read that there is only one version for either EDC and non-EDC, is this correct? Mine is 2011 with EDC and the competition package (19" BBS wheel).

2. You mind sharing your settings? This is what I have in mind as initial settings:
Stock height (stock=competition package)
Camber -1.7F/-1.9R or thereabout, hopefully I don't need after-market camber plate for this?
Zero toe in front (My Turbo is set up same way; fast response and not "darty" at all; hoping for same here.).
Damper 9 clicks from full hard.
This is for a mostly canyon/mountain road driving, nothing crazy. Any advice/comments please (from anyone)? TIA
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Last edited by cannga; 10-04-2019 at 12:42 PM..
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      10-04-2019, 12:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks for your input. This is music to my ears - fingers crossed. We are placing order for the Ohlins. The people doing alignment will be West End Alignment in Gardena (VERY well known in Porsche circle also).

1. I've read that there is only one version for either EDC and non-EDC, is this correct? Mine is 2011 with EDC and the competition package (19" BBS wheel).

2. You mind sharing your settings? This is what I have in mind as initial setting:
stock height (stock=competition package)
camber -1.7F/-1.9R or thereabout, hopefully this is possible with stock top hat?
zero toe in front (My Turbo is set up same way; fast response and not "darty" at all; hoping for same here.).
damper 9 clicks from full hard.
This is for a mostly canyon/mountain road driving, nothing crazy. Any advice/comments please (from anyone)? TIA
Kit is the same for EDC / Non EDC I believe. I have Ohlins R&T, Ground control camber plates, and bimmerworld monoball control bushings.

-2.6 Front / -1.7 rear (this is max you can get on the rear without other modifications as far as I know)
A small amount of toe in front and rear for stability
I only do 6K miles a year so inside tire wear isn't really a concern, my car is setup for double duty.

I would go Ohlins recommended height which I believe is 10mm below comp pack height, still plenty of ground clearance.

I change the stiffness all the time depending on what I'm doing, you can cut very small holes in the rear liner to adjust the rears. Fronts put the wheel at full lock and then reach your arm around the tire underneath. 2 clicks from full stiff on the track, fast road driving feels good anywhere 5-10, if I'm going on a road trip with the wife etc. I set it at 15 clicks from stiff which is very comfortable.
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      10-04-2019, 03:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I change the stiffness all the time depending on what I'm doing, you can cut very small holes in the rear liner to adjust the rears. Fronts put the wheel at full lock and then reach your arm around the tire underneath. 2 clicks from full stiff on the track, fast road driving feels good anywhere 5-10, if I'm going on a road trip with the wife etc. I set it at 15 clicks from stiff which is very comfortable.
I think if you simply just went with the above advice you'd be happy.

If you want to take another approach, start with the shocks all the way open (full counter clockwise). This will give you a starting point with full comfort and compliance. Get some driving in and begin adding force by closing the valving (clockwise) until the chassis is reacting the way you want and laziness / wallowiness has been dialed out to your liking. Adjust all four corners the same and at the same time, e.g. 10 clicks out from full stiff all 4 corners. From there adjust the opposite end of the car to dial out unwanted handling traits: Understeering, take a click or two out of (soften) the rear. Oversteering, do that to the front. And take notes along the way.
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      10-04-2019, 06:09 PM   #37
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Want to add how significant 1 click of adjustment is. It's very customizable.
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      10-23-2019, 01:55 AM   #38
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Picked up car today with Ohlins installed. I need to drive more but preliminary impression is it's BEYOND FANTASTIC. I should have done this a long time ago.

Two things about stock suspension bothered me the most:
A. ponderous softness and body roll and
B. paradoxically, unusual harshness despite of above softness.
The car now responds firmly in curves, turn-in response faster and and the harshness when hitting imperfection of LA roads is much improved.

Settings:
Installing: I asked Auto Talent (Zolti) to set damper 9 click from max stiffness front and rear. I requested that car not be lowered too much, and now it sits at 26 inch mid fender all around (versus 26.5 stock). Zolti said he removed some pin (?) so that more negative camber could be set in front.
Alignment was done by West End Alignment (a very well known Porche/BMW alignment shop in Southern Cal). I requested to set alignment for "moderately aggressive" canyon driving, with camber in 1.5 to 1.8 range, zero toe in front, and this is what they came up with:
Camber: -1.5 front, -1.35 rear
Toe In (Total): 0 front, 3/32" rear
Caster +6.75

Thanks everyone for your very helpful input.
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Last edited by cannga; 10-30-2019 at 09:42 PM..
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      10-30-2019, 08:58 PM   #39
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More impression at my moderately aggressive setting - IMHO:

Ohlins makes M3 now fully competitive with my Bilstein Turbo in "fun factor." This is the most important thing to me. The car is now a more tightly wound sports car and hugs mountain roads beautifully. The excessive body roll is gone, so is the jittery stiffness of the sport setting. The more sporty Ohlins suspension is firmer, but there is definitely more grace in handling road imperfections. Suspension mod btw alters the subjective sensation of power delivery (more immediate), and the BMW V8 engine is shining even more brightly (what a gem of an engine). I really was thinking about selling the M3 before this mod as it wasn't getting much used, not anymore.

Bilstein Damptronic's "Automatic Adjustment" in Porsche versus Ohlins "Manual Adjustment" in BMW: The Damptronic Bilstein's advantage is that it is more convenient, the Ohlins' advantage is that with the 20 or so "click" adjustability front and rear, it could be tailored to your taste much more closely. With Ohlins, you could try to adjust the rebound force exactly to your liking, front versus rear for example to affect understeer/oversteer behavior, or both to affect comfort. With Bilstein Damptronic, you are limited to the 2 or 3 factory settings of Bilstein. I enjoy both systems equally.

Alignment settings: with zero toe and more negative front camber, car has excellent steering response, very fast turn in, and less understeer characteristic. The change in alignment is as important as the addition of Ohlins. I believe my setting above is a good start for aggressive street driving (you'll likely need more neg camber at the track, etc.). Zero toe is not jittery at all, in fact helps to make steering response wonderfully fast.

In short if you are looking for a more "aggressive" M3 (personal preference, no right or wrong), I would recommend the Ohlins extremely highly. Simply put, it transforms the feel of the stock M3.
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Last edited by cannga; 10-30-2019 at 09:43 PM..
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