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11-07-2019, 04:03 PM | #10628 | |
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But point taken. I've always believed in "equal restraints" for both until I've spent the last few weeks reading opinions from people who say that have "decades in motorsports" and essentially safety marketing material. Now I'm in a gray area where I need some sense knocked back into me. To summarize on what I've found, a Schroth QFP harness alone provides little benefit over a standard belt in a head on collision and may even be detrimental if it prevents the air bags from working as intended. I haven't found any data showing benefits of that harness in reducing head and neck injuries compared to standard belts in those instances. However, the QFP harness does perform better when the car has rolled over. The reason we have head and neck restraints is due to the body being restrained too well. Based on that, pairing a HANS device with a harness is a must. Assuming a QFP harness is installed for both sides, the point about equal restraints for driver and passenger does get a bit ambiguous when the driver has a HANS device. Should the driver provide a HANS device for an instructor if they do not have one? Should the driver remove their HANS device so it's equal restraints? If the instructor doesn't have any type of head and neck restraint device and they shouldn't be using the harness, should the driver remove their restraint device and not use the harness as well so it's equal? Purely hypothetical and kind of stupid questions, but would be nice to get opinions on this to see what most people believe. |
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11-07-2019, 05:09 PM | #10629 | |
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Not stupid or silly questions. A QFP is always better than a 3 point. It has antisubmarining built in and allows for proper use/deployment of the airbag. This is why it is DOT legal, so you can run around on the street with them. [note this is NOT the case in general for 4 points] 6 points are completely different than a 4 point QFP. The 6 point has antisubmarine functionality courtesy of the 2 sub belts, not due to special features of the shoulder belts like the QFP. In PCA you cannot run a 6 point without a race seat + a Hans device. Which is a very smart rule. You will rip your damn head off if you crash with a 6 point and no Hans device. The QFP is an excellent solution before you take the plunge to fixed back seats and a harness bar/half cage/roll bar. |
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11-07-2019, 05:10 PM | #10630 |
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Correct, that is a valid thing to do in order to follow the rule.
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11-07-2019, 05:24 PM | #10631 |
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It's all situational to me..
DE1 or 2 student on street tires, sure, I'll hop in that passenger seat. DE3 student who wants a check ride to move to 4 and he has a harness and I don't.. he's gonna wear his 3pt while I'm in the car. |
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11-08-2019, 12:17 AM | #10632 | |
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As far as your comment on moving to the advanced group and will primarily be solo... you're missing out on an important concept. The goal shouldn't be move up to advanced/solo as fast as possible. You should, given the opportunity, get someone to ride in your right seat to give you pointers. I've been instructing for 3 years and am generally considered pretty goddamn quick at our track. And I'm paying for a semi-pro driver next year for a day of coaching to help me improve another little bit. When other instructor friends want to come for a session, I gladly accept and listen to what they have to say. Just something to keep in mind as you move up the run-groups. |
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11-08-2019, 01:00 AM | #10633 |
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Yup, unless you're Lewis Hamilton, you can always improve...and even he has coaches, strategists, race engineers, etc. that give him advice.
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11-08-2019, 09:23 AM | #10634 | |
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*Warning - bit of an off tangent rant below* Besides the extra stability that a QFP gives it also provides an easy way for a driver to get into a neck restraint. IMO anytime you add significant extra weight to your head in the form of a helmet you should have a neck restraint on. Anything you can do to help negate the potential forces can make a lifetime of difference. The basilar skull fracture being the big whammy - but certainly a whole host of other potential issues that a restraint can help prevent. Neck injuries really, really suck & can be instantly life changing (besides potentially deadly). Three fused vertebrae in my neck - something I have to deal with everyday - and I feel very, very fortunate. Could be a lot worse. Sorry for the rant...
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11-08-2019, 10:11 AM | #10635 | |
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I don't run the QFP anymore as I have 6 points, seats and the BK harness bar, however, I strongly believe the QFP has a massive advantage over 3 points not only in terms of controlling the car better as you're not flying around in the car, but especially because it allows for a head restraint. Your neck was not designed to have a heavy helmet on top of it. The QFP is, for me, step#1 in the safety journey And that's also why I'll be bitching about the stupid-ass seats in the F8X M cars until I die: because it's stupid to lose that functionality. |
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11-08-2019, 10:31 AM | #10636 | |
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I've also seen the people in expensive fast cars show up and insist on being signed off to solo and that's not me. I know my limitations, where I need to improve, and what to ask from instructors as far as coaching. At this point, I don't need someone sitting next to provide feedback on the two or three very specific things I'm working on. I just need to practice so the correct way becomes a habit, which I can self-diagnose. If I'm not doing it correctly, I'll ask an instructor help. Once I sufficiently improve, then I'll go back to having instructors help narrow down other areas to focus on and how to accomplish improving on it. |
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11-08-2019, 11:41 AM | #10637 |
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Preach it boys. It's really silly to not have a neck restraint when you think about it. Especially when you consider money commonly spent and prioritized on other modifications. It should be the first dollar spent.
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11-08-2019, 12:30 PM | #10638 | |
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My favorite instructors have been the ones who get in the car, watch a lap or two before even saying anything then point out a couple of areas to work on (i.e. turn in slightly later here, trail brake further to the apex, use more curb here etc.). Its very easy to go into autopilot and not notice area's for improvement, particularly when you are trying to eeke out those extra few seconds. I'd love to do a Bondurant racing school or Team Oneill Rally school as I know my progression would be so much quicker, one day! |
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11-08-2019, 01:27 PM | #10639 | |
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And like Slicer mentioned, don't skimp out on a proper HANS/neck restraint device. If your running 5/6 point already, you might as well invest a few hundred for a good neck restraint system. A little restrictive at first, but you quickly adapt and adds some peace of mind. Actually makes the shoulder straps more comfortable as well. |
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11-08-2019, 04:03 PM | #10640 |
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If you are driving anything that uses a 3-point with any regularity on the track I strongly recommend using something like the Simpson hybrid that doesn’t need a harness to work properly. Not a fan of Hans for anything that doesn’t have very close head containment wings. I use a hans in an open cockpit car with a full containment apparatus around the seat, and it’s nice that it’s so easy to use. But the Simpson is a better mousetrap for most track day people.
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11-08-2019, 06:43 PM | #10641 |
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Consider paying for a private instructor for a day. Way more useful than having someone ride shotgun for 20 minutes.
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11-09-2019, 09:05 AM | #10642 | |
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Yeah especially now with the simpson hybrid being available too. Pretty much every scenario can be covered now. IMO should be factored into the minimum of what is needed to start tracking. First track event really drove that point home for me.
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11-09-2019, 07:29 PM | #10643 |
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I have no idea wtf people are talking about when they say they are flopping around in the car. Is it a core strength thing? My racecar is literally a custom fit and yeah the M3 isn’t as like-a-glove as it is, but it’s not as if I feel at all like I’m going to slide out the seat or even need to brace on track. I’ve heard this since the dawn of time and I’ve never been in a car that had seats bad enough for me to be like “damn this is unsafe”. And that’s saying something - I’ve competed in an Impala SS with a bench seat before
Last edited by Richbot; 11-09-2019 at 07:36 PM.. |
11-09-2019, 07:42 PM | #10644 |
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In some sense I agree. But where the QFP solved my "flopping" was under heavy braking. I started to cramp my palms later in the day because I was using my hand's grip and almost locking/retracting my shoulders/back to brace myself constantly.
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11-09-2019, 10:17 PM | #10645 | |
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Cornering is easier as you can use the dead pedal to brace and you're not really subject to as great of forces as braking. QFPs for both sides are on their way. Now I need to keep my eye out for deals on a Simpson Hybrid Sport and maybe picking up a HANS III as a backup. |
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11-12-2019, 09:48 AM | #10646 |
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I went Simpson when it first came out. Way better than Hans. But I also put Velcro and a cushion on the back side because it burned through my seat backing.
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11-12-2019, 12:04 PM | #10647 | |
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After rewatching a video of a pretty sketchy off I had a few weeks ago a few times I think some kind of additional safety gear is on my Christmas list. I'll keep the velcro/cushion idea in mind
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11-12-2019, 06:24 PM | #10648 | ||
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