|
|
10-29-2012, 05:55 PM | #23 |
272
Rep 2,946
Posts |
To the OP - it's really dependent on what you feel the car is doing. What works for me and my driving style might not work for you and yours. The sway bar and minimize body roll on turn in - but so can your driving style by turning in earlier and slower. It's all about setting your car up for you.
As people said earlier - yes a sway bar can solve some understeer issues. Usually the issues that it solves are issues caused by body roll and the tire rolling over onto its outside edges. In a properly set up car (camber plates, suspension, etc), this may not hold true - where adding a front sway would most likely cause more understeer. |
Appreciate
0
|
10-29-2012, 06:14 PM | #24 |
Major General
2759
Rep 5,484
Posts |
If you are on stock or near-stock spring rates, a bigger front sway bar on its own can make the car behave better in pretty much every way. This was my experience on my car with stock springs and RDSport front bar. Better off-throttle behavior, more settled in transitions, better corner exit traction. It's a good way to gain roll stiffness if you want to or are required to stay with near-stock spring rates, with no real downsides other than dealing with typical aftermarket part BS
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
10-29-2012, 06:19 PM | #25 | |
Major General
2759
Rep 5,484
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
10-31-2012, 12:02 PM | #26 |
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
1821
Rep 5,337
Posts
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day
|
All this obsession about bars...It's the LEAST of your concerns IMO.
A wise man once told me, suspension components impact handling in the following way: Tires > Alignment > Springs > Shocks > Swaybars. Each one on the list has DIMINISHING returns in what it does for a suspension and how it can affect state of balance. Tires, obviously, has the biggest impact on how the car handles. In fact, I would guesstimate that 90% of all your handling ills can be cured by making sure you have the right size tires front and back. And since Alignment will affect the static and dynamic contact patch of the tires, it has the next biggest impact on a car's handling characteristics. In fact, I would say the two together will cure 99% of your handling ills. Then comes springs and shocks. Heck, if you have springs of sufficient stiffness and shocks capable of handling said springs, you can even run WITHOUT front and rear bars. But if your concern is how the car handles, fix all the other parameter FIRST before worrying about the swaybars. Set your car's tire size, pressure, alignment, spring rate, and damper settings all up to get you to the ideal settings based on your style of driving, then if you still need to fine-tune the car's balance, and by fine-tune I mean you're having a rip roaring time at the track, and you notice that the front end still plows a little too early at more than half the turns at exit? Change the swaybar or its stiffness settings to see if it solves the problem. But to obsess about swaybar settings before any other parameter is dialed in, IMO, is a waste of time.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
|
Appreciate
0
|
10-31-2012, 03:23 PM | #27 | |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Quote:
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-01-2012, 07:40 PM | #28 |
Major General
2750
Rep 6,759
Posts |
Are you running stock camber up front?
I was thinking of adding a streetable plate (GC was recommended over Vorschlag because the former retains the rubber bushing), perhaps in conjunction with springs. Then if that still doesn't do it, go to a front sway... Forgot to say, I am more concerned about tire wear due to insufficient camber at the track, then managing the last bit of understeer...
__________________
2018 F80 Santorini 2019 Z4 3.0i 2022 X2 M35i |
Appreciate
0
|
11-01-2012, 08:16 PM | #29 |
Captain
126
Rep 938
Posts |
why not start with camber plates? A larger front sway may help settle the front end a bit, but I wouldnt say the m3 has inherent understeer. it seems quite easy to get the rear to rotate, and a stiffer front seems to me that it would make the rear even easier to kick out. ie, unpredictably.
it could be worth experimenting, but my take is to try to settle the camber first. |
Appreciate
0
|
11-01-2012, 08:44 PM | #30 |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
I think I went overboard and agree with Leo95se's assessment to try JUST camber plates first. The front sway was likely unnecessary at this point.
This is just a guess...no data behind it.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
Appreciate
0
|
11-01-2012, 09:14 PM | #31 |
General
21115
Rep 20,741
Posts
Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal
|
I am running camber plates up front as my only mod. I am using -2.8 front and -1.8 rear camber settings. I also run a square wheel and tire track setup. My car feels pretty darn well balanced, no understeer here.
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-01-2012, 09:49 PM | #32 |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
I have been thinking about going back to the OEM front bar but I don't think it matters. I don't plan to drive my M3 on the track a lot so I'll just deal with it as it.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
Appreciate
0
|
11-02-2012, 06:46 PM | #33 | ||||
Lieutenant Colonel
394
Rep 1,519
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The higher spring rates, increased suspension travel and improved suspension geometry give the M3 even more grip for faster and more predictable cornering capabilities. All of the EDC system features are maintained for cars equipped with the option. To further reduce body roll and increase turn-in, the Stage 3 suspension system includes a 28.5mm front swaybar with urethane bushing and front camber plates. And, similarly, from Turner Motorsport's website: BMW made a lot of changes in the front suspension for the E82 1-series and E9X 3-series. One area where they improved on past suspensions is by using hollow sway bars to reduce weight. And to further tune the handling the bar sizes were varied among each model. We have collected the various stock sizes along with an H&R M3 bar and gave it all to one of our suspension engineers to draw some direct comparisons. All of the E9X front sway bars are interchangeable so you can pick and choose which bar will work best for your particular application. The E93 M3 cabrio bar is the largest outside diameter [28mm] - BUT it narrows down to 24mm in the middle and it's hollow. Both will reduce it's effectiveness. You can see that the stock E90/E92 M3 front bar is a straight 26.5mm throughout it's entire length. So the difference between the two is pretty small on paper. Either one would be an upgrade over the stock non-M E9X bar. But if you want the stiffest, the H&R is clearly superior because A) it's a straight 27.0mm diameter across its length, and B) it's a solid bar, not hollow, so it resists twisting a lot more. Sway bars contribute to the overall spring rate of the suspension. Going with too large/stiff of a bar will impact the handling balance and ride, especially with stock or mild sport springs. So you don't always want to install the biggest and stiffest bar out there. Careful consideration of the rest of your suspension and even your tires is recommended. For a E9X non-M street car, with stock or sport springs, we would probably recommend a stock M3 or the E93 M3 front bar because we know it works well in this application and it's guaranteed to be an improvement with minimal downsides. If you use the H&R M3 bar on the street, you should balance it with the H&R M3 rear bar. And if you're building a track car with stiff springs, or already have an M3, the H&R bar is clearly the best choice. H&R Front Sway Bar - E9X M3 - 27mm 52% stiffer than the factory E90/E92 M3 bar. 42% stiffer than the E93 M3 bar! 27mm straight across (not a tapered center like the E93 M3 factory bar) Solid core, not hollow like the stock bars (better at resisting twist) Forged, non-adjustable steel ends Highest tensile steel strength available The H&R for the E9X M3 is the best anti-roll bar option for the E9X M3. Don't be let down by the "small" size compared to the factory sway bar sizes - there are some big differences! We've had our in-house suspension engineers run the math and the H&R swaybar is over 52% stiffer than the factory E90/E92 M3 bar and even over 42% stiffer than the E93 M3 sway bar upgrade. There are several reasons for this - the stock sway bars are hollow (for lighter weight) and will twist more than the solid H&R bar. Also, the E93 M3 bar is often called a 28mm bar but it actually tapers down in the center to 24mm which greatly reduces its effectiveness. So if you're looking for a serious sway bar upgrade, the H&R is clearly the way to go. Note: to maintain the handling balance of the car, we recommend only using the front bar with the matching H&R rear bar or heavily revised racing suspension.
__________________
Past: E46 330Ci, E60 545i, E60 M5, E90 M3
Present: 2020 M2 Competition, 2022 GT3 |
||||
Appreciate
0
|
11-13-2012, 06:17 AM | #35 |
Major
70
Rep 1,339
Posts |
Just to throw some fuel on the fire. Turner were at LRP yesterday tuning their LRP M3. They were testing some custom H&R springs for that car, with only a front sway bar. I asked them about that, as I am interested, and the engineer guy I chatted to said that with M3's rear was stiff enough as stock and that adding the sway bar to the front stiffened up front end roll and improved turn-in for a little better handling on the track. I pressed him again about needing a rear sway bar too, but he said it was a a lot of trouble to put in, and you would be okay with just a front bar if you wanted to tighten body roll up. I was expecting him to insist on matched bars since his company is a supplier.
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-13-2012, 07:52 AM | #36 |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
I don't think you'll see many rear bar offerings for the masses because of the install requirements. Not sure if your avg sway bar buyer is going to go to that trouble.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
Appreciate
0
|
11-13-2012, 06:09 PM | #38 |
Major
70
Rep 1,339
Posts |
and..?
You didn't finish your point... I was just surprise that TMS hadn't put both front and rear on their new M3
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-13-2012, 06:38 PM | #39 |
Major General
2759
Rep 5,484
Posts |
It's pretty common for racecars to end up with very little or no rear bar on a front engine, rear drive setup. Rear spring tends to have more influence on ride quality than front spring so a rear bar makes sense for a street car, but I'm not sure I would ever want to go stiffer than stock considering how good the highend dampers can be now
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-14-2012, 02:31 PM | #40 |
Captain
126
Rep 938
Posts |
Exactly.. Those cars are so high end with all of the other components (likely a solid rear end) that a swaybar isn't as relevant. I'm sure it's still correct from an engineering standpoint, and not sure it's all that valuable at 'our' level.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-02-2018, 03:41 PM | #41 |
Brigadier General
1421
Rep 3,001
Posts |
Sorry to bump an old thread but its been 6 years, anyone else have any input on if it is okay to put only front sway bars?
__________________
INSTAGRAM: GORDON.M3
North American Mr12Volt Carplay/Android Auto Distributor DINAN | EVOSPORT | VAC | ARP | RD SPORT | NEEZ | EIBACH | CSF | IND | BILSTEIN | KLASSEN | BREMBO | ENDLESS | BBS | BPM SPORT | PROJECT MU | EVENTURI |
Appreciate
0
|
09-02-2018, 08:26 PM | #42 |
Lieutenant General
11585
Rep 12,725
Posts |
yes, its fine. i've seen it plenty of times, but i would get something adjustable. a swaybar isn't a "one size fits all" kind of thing, it needs to be adjusted based on what you're doing with it and how the car is setup.
the only reason i think a rear bar isn't as popular is the difficulty of the install.
__________________
Instagram; @roastbeefmike
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-02-2018, 08:57 PM | #43 | |
Brigadier General
1421
Rep 3,001
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
INSTAGRAM: GORDON.M3
North American Mr12Volt Carplay/Android Auto Distributor DINAN | EVOSPORT | VAC | ARP | RD SPORT | NEEZ | EIBACH | CSF | IND | BILSTEIN | KLASSEN | BREMBO | ENDLESS | BBS | BPM SPORT | PROJECT MU | EVENTURI |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-04-2019, 02:22 PM | #44 |
Captain
592
Rep 769
Posts |
I'm currently running KW clubsport suspension and have no issues with how it handles on track as far as understeer/oversteer, but recently I've been pushing the car harder and I'm rubbing the fender liner up front. Would adding a front sway bar help with this issue? Also, I'm going to be dropping the whole rear end soon to install solid subframe/diff bushings, so would it be beneficial to take advantage of the opportunity to easily add a rear bar as well to maintain front/rear balance?
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|