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      07-31-2019, 10:46 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's hard for me to imagine how a mid engined car will be more serviceable than front engined ones

Regarding overheating, you can read Car and Driver's long term test of the Z51 C7, where they overheated the car twice driving on mountain roads.
An E9X will overheat with stock radiators if you use slicks on the track, however, on a mountain road you aren't going to overheat anything.

I have hope the C8 will be good, but not faith.
Faith is what I have after heavily tracking the E46, E9X and F8X generation. I have faith the G8X generation will be great.
The C8 Vette hopefully will be great but I have a hard time trusting them

I personally dislike turbo engines and EPS systems, but I track the F8X hard and it responds perfectly
Link to said article?

Searching through C&D looking for it, all I found related to heat management on the non Z06 is...

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/
Quote:
GM wouldn’t confirm whether the automatic Corvette is quicker on the track, but the Z51-equipped cars are certainly built for it; they will lap continuously for a full tank of fuel without overheating.
I do think it makes sense to skip the first year or two on this car, as it's SO different than previous cars that I do suspect there will be some teething issues on early cars that need to be overcome.

I have way more faith in Corvette than BMW. BMW hasn't made anything I have any desire for/interest in/desire to work on since they moved to turbos.

By more easily serviceable I meant the engine is easy to access from above-- routine maintenance, such as valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, coils, etc will still be easily accessed (with some caution not to mar the paint). Compared to a Boxster/cayman/911, with no topside access and turbo components adding complexity everywhere, should be a cakewalk. Or, put differently-- the car is set up so that Chevrolet dearerships will be able to work on it!
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      07-31-2019, 12:55 PM   #24
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https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...tain-road.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Link to said article?

Searching through C&D looking for it, all I found related to heat management on the non Z06 is...

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/


I do think it makes sense to skip the first year or two on this car, as it's SO different than previous cars that I do suspect there will be some teething issues on early cars that need to be overcome.

I have way more faith in Corvette than BMW. BMW hasn't made anything I have any desire for/interest in/desire to work on since they moved to turbos.

By more easily serviceable I meant the engine is easy to access from above-- routine maintenance, such as valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, coils, etc will still be easily accessed (with some caution not to mar the paint). Compared to a Boxster/cayman/911, with no topside access and turbo components adding complexity everywhere, should be a cakewalk. Or, put differently-- the car is set up so that Chevrolet dearerships will be able to work on it!
I wish I hadn't looked for it because wow, it's an incredible read. It certainly takes faith to believe in the Vette.

I'm not sure this qualifies as 'a few teething issues'.

It's easy to picture the Vette people coming out to defend that this was just one car, that blah blah blah. Mags have had the E46 and E9X and somehow neither of those has had vanos/subframe/rod bearing issues.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-test-wrap-up/

Some choice quotes
Let’s get this out of the way up front: The litany of breakdowns suffered by our long-term 2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 (C7) was simply appalling.

But the dry-sump oiling system included with the $2800 Z51 package could not prevent the engine from self-destructing. It grenaded at 6000 miles, when we rolled onto a local chassis dynamometer to meas*ure the LT1’s power at the pavement. The engine started to eat itself before we could begin the testing in earnest.

Other drivers agreed, chiding the seven-speed for its chunky engagement, propensity to pop out of lower gears, and the difficulty in navigating the tightly spaced gates.

Although we had fitted excellent Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 winter tires, the Corvette struggled in the deep freeze of our Michigan winter. In sub-zero temps, the LT1 V-8 could take up to 12 seconds of cranking before firing, which surely contributed to the starter motor dying at 21,000 miles. Shortly thereafter, the brain of the Stingray’s heating-and-air-conditioning system began shutting down intermittently—in mid-January—and needed to be swapped.

The C7’s axle seals began leaking lubricant at 25,000 miles. Frigid winter weather probably aggravated this failure. GM was in the process of installing more-durable seals in production, and the improved parts supplied to our dealer cured the issue. But it’s worth mentioning that neither our long-term 2014 Jaguar F-type V-8 S nor our 2014 Porsche Cayman S, which both suffered through the same awful winter, had any problems dealing with the cold.

We’ve experienced little if any trouble with the later Stingrays we’ve driven and want to think of our test car as a first-year anomaly. The latest Corvette is an amazing performance bargain, and it still pained us to hand back the keys. But the reality is that this Stingray failed spectacularly, and its 17-month evaluation was a test of our patience as much as it was of the car itself. We can forgive some of its troubles because the C7 is the type of machine we’re happy to still have in our over-regulated and increasingly automated world. But we won’t forget this experience anytime soon.


And about the regular Z51 C7 overheating, it was in Edmunds, my bad. Sometimes I confuse both mags.
Here's the link:
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...g-checkup.html
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...tain-road.html

Which mates up perfectly with what I read in the Vette forums when I was thinking of getting a C7 Z51 instead of the E90 M3.


The first condition in my mind for a car to be considered an option is for it to function. The QuattroFormaggio may drive like a dream and yadayadayada, but as it cannot function without breaking down then it's not a real world option.
So we can talk about fun to drive and EPS and turbos and whatever, but a car has to be able to function. I couldn't care less how engaging something is if it doesn't work.
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      07-31-2019, 01:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...tain-road.html

I wish I hadn't looked for it because wow, it's an incredible read. It certainly takes faith to believe in the Vette.

I'm not sure this qualifies as 'a few teething issues'.

It's easy to picture the Vette people coming out to defend that this was just one car, that blah blah blah. Mags have had the E46 and E9X and somehow neither of those has had vanos/subframe/rod bearing issues.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-test-wrap-up/

Some choice quotes
Let’s get this out of the way up front: The litany of breakdowns suffered by our long-term 2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 (C7) was simply appalling.

But the dry-sump oiling system included with the $2800 Z51 package could not prevent the engine from self-destructing. It grenaded at 6000 miles, when we rolled onto a local chassis dynamometer to meas*ure the LT1’s power at the pavement. The engine started to eat itself before we could begin the testing in earnest.

Other drivers agreed, chiding the seven-speed for its chunky engagement, propensity to pop out of lower gears, and the difficulty in navigating the tightly spaced gates.

Although we had fitted excellent Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 winter tires, the Corvette struggled in the deep freeze of our Michigan winter. In sub-zero temps, the LT1 V-8 could take up to 12 seconds of cranking before firing, which surely contributed to the starter motor dying at 21,000 miles. Shortly thereafter, the brain of the Stingray’s heating-and-air-conditioning system began shutting down intermittently—in mid-January—and needed to be swapped.

The C7’s axle seals began leaking lubricant at 25,000 miles. Frigid winter weather probably aggravated this failure. GM was in the process of installing more-durable seals in production, and the improved parts supplied to our dealer cured the issue. But it’s worth mentioning that neither our long-term 2014 Jaguar F-type V-8 S nor our 2014 Porsche Cayman S, which both suffered through the same awful winter, had any problems dealing with the cold.

We’ve experienced little if any trouble with the later Stingrays we’ve driven and want to think of our test car as a first-year anomaly. The latest Corvette is an amazing performance bargain, and it still pained us to hand back the keys. But the reality is that this Stingray failed spectacularly, and its 17-month evaluation was a test of our patience as much as it was of the car itself. We can forgive some of its troubles because the C7 is the type of machine we’re happy to still have in our over-regulated and increasingly automated world. But we won’t forget this experience anytime soon.


And about the regular Z51 C7 overheating, it was in Edmunds, my bad. Sometimes I confuse both mags.
Here's the link:
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...g-checkup.html
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...tain-road.html

Which mates up perfectly with what I read in the Vette forums when I was thinking of getting a C7 Z51 instead of the E90 M3.


The first condition in my mind for a car to be considered an option is for it to function. The QuattroFormaggio may drive like a dream and yadayadayada, but as it cannot function without breaking down then it's not a real world option.
So we can talk about fun to drive and EPS and turbos and whatever, but a car has to be able to function. I couldn't care less how engaging something is if it doesn't work.
It's certainly bad that the C&D car blew it's engine, but it seems to be an anomaly-- engine failure is not at all a common problem they suffer from (whereas I'd say engine failure actually is a somewhat common failure on the e9X M3). Failing at 6000 miles also very much indicates a production issue, not a design issue. 6000 miles on the odo is very much on the opening side of the bathtub curve (which is really the very purpose of warranties).

Why do you think the edmunds corvette is a Z51? Neither of those links mentions it being a Z51?
(Z51 being relevant as it adds almost all the important cooling for hard use)
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      07-31-2019, 09:23 PM   #26
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Ive had a number of Corvettes. GS, multiple Z06, etc. C4, C5, and C6. Then I got into Porsches because VAG has the best interiors in the business.

I never had a single substantial problem in 16 cumulative years of track use, autoX use, heads-cam-headers-in-the-driveway, daily driving, etc etc.

As a reference, Ive had this M3 for 20k miles and Ive replaced the rod bearings, transmission seals, an oil pan, several sensors, and (in my opinion) the front calipers needed replacing with aftermarket after the second track day.

The C8 with Z51 will be an incredible bargain and faster around a track than any stock BMW, but the interior will likely make me sad.

Also, if you have to wonder about 911s, then I can't explain it to you I love what I have and I am always planning the next one. They are just simply superior cars.
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      08-01-2019, 12:01 AM   #27
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I’ve driven enough 911’s to know you’re full of it
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      08-02-2019, 05:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
Ive had a number of Corvettes. GS, multiple Z06, etc. C4, C5, and C6. Then I got into Porsches because VAG has the best interiors in the business.

I never had a single substantial problem in 16 cumulative years of track use, autoX use, heads-cam-headers-in-the-driveway, daily driving, etc etc.

As a reference, Ive had this M3 for 20k miles and Ive replaced the rod bearings, transmission seals, an oil pan, several sensors, and (in my opinion) the front calipers needed replacing with aftermarket after the second track day.

The C8 with Z51 will be an incredible bargain and faster around a track than any stock BMW, but the interior will likely make me sad.

Also, if you have to wonder about 911s, then I can't explain it to you I love what I have and I am always planning the next one. They are just simply superior cars.
I had a friends 991 Turbo S for the day and was totally underwhelmed. It was fast, comfortable around town, but it just didn't feel as special and connected as a GTS or GT3. I'd buy one of those and save the $$ for more track days. Steering also felt weird to me, even though I've driven other AWD cars with that much or more power (GTR, etc.).

That's just me though
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      08-02-2019, 06:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
It's certainly bad that the C&D car blew it's engine, but it seems to be an anomaly-- engine failure is not at all a common problem they suffer from (whereas I'd say engine failure actually is a somewhat common failure on the e9X M3). Failing at 6000 miles also very much indicates a production issue, not a design issue. 6000 miles on the odo is very much on the opening side of the bathtub curve (which is really the very purpose of warranties).

Why do you think the edmunds corvette is a Z51? Neither of those links mentions it being a Z51?
(Z51 being relevant as it adds almost all the important cooling for hard use)
...
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/co...roduction.html

I don't think the Z51 package is relevant in the very least. They did not overheat while running slicks at a track day. They overheated after 8 turns in a 'mountain road'.
Again, a car needs to function. Overheating after 8 turns is solidly in the 'nonfunctioning' spectrum of things. You should not need beefed up cooling to withstand driving on mountain roads. But my philosophical qualms are unnecessary as the car indeed did have the Z51 package.

Yes yes, I know it's a suuuuuper common failure on the E9X... so common in fact that neither C&D nor Edmunds, nor Motortrend have blown an E9X engine... or throttle actuators, or crank hubs in the F8Xs they've had... but these guys blew their vette's engine. Apparently deburring is really hard to figure out especially when making an engine that's brand new... oh wait...

Car and Driver blew two Z51s if I remember correctly. Please don't ask me to post the links. It is a waste of time. Before telling me that Z51s do not overheat people should have done their homework.

It does seem like the GS is the sweet spot in the Vette lineup and functions correctly. By the time it came out I was too turned off at the idea to pull the trigger

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 08-02-2019 at 06:26 PM..
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      08-05-2019, 09:22 AM   #30
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I suspect the list of people that think that (a) the LSX/LTX is unreliable or (b) the s65 is reliable... is very short.
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      08-06-2019, 11:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
...

I suspect the list of people that think that (a) the LSX/LTX is unreliable or (b) the s65 is reliable... is very short.
I think M engines are on the very reliable side. Preventative measures are also cheap compared to the competition.

I suspect only the Porsche GT/Turbo variants have better reliability than Ms. Their base models are known for disastrous oil starvation on high lateral G applications. Ah the flat 6 engines...
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      08-06-2019, 02:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Link to said article?

Searching through C&D looking for it, all I found related to heat management on the non Z06 is...

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/


I do think it makes sense to skip the first year or two on this car, as it's SO different than previous cars that I do suspect there will be some teething issues on early cars that need to be overcome.

I have way more faith in Corvette than BMW. BMW hasn't made anything I have any desire for/interest in/desire to work on since they moved to turbos.

By more easily serviceable I meant the engine is easy to access from above-- routine maintenance, such as valve cover gaskets, spark plugs, coils, etc will still be easily accessed (with some caution not to mar the paint). Compared to a Boxster/cayman/911, with no topside access and turbo components adding complexity everywhere, should be a cakewalk. Or, put differently-- the car is set up so that Chevrolet dearerships will be able to work on it!
The valvecover tops are below the top of the rear tires. That cover and the intake make things look better than they are, I think you're probably looking at at least a partial subframe drop and if not that, dropping the entire rear undertray to do anything with VC's, headers or the accessory drive. This photo makes me mad because clearly the exhaust should exit through the decklid but noooo they're too chicken/consumers are stu toopid for that



But that's what 100k plugs are for. Definitely looks like they expect you to reach everything important from the bottom. You're not getting access to much from the top without standing in the golf club/lawn chair/car show/zaino/gold chain/trophy compartment behind the engine

AT LEAST THERE'S A MOT@!6*)(Q36!##6$!6$iING DIPSTICK
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Last edited by Richbot; 08-06-2019 at 02:09 PM..
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      08-06-2019, 02:12 PM   #33
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I wonder how long till we see an aftermarket exhaust/rear hatch combo part that exhausts out the top
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      08-06-2019, 02:17 PM   #34
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It better not be long. OR ELSE

Also, damn that water pump is a chonky boi
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Last edited by Richbot; 08-06-2019 at 02:24 PM..
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      08-08-2019, 06:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
golf club/lawn chair/car show/zaino/gold chain/trophy compartment behind the engine

AT LEAST THERE'S A MOT@!6*)(Q36!##6$!6$iING DIPSTICK
If you've had a Corvette back in the days, you remember Sal Zaino and the guys professing the incredible life changing effects of 50+ coats of Zaino. Sal was a ChemE straight out of Grease (the movie), including the greased hair, sleeveless denim vest, gold chains, and a Goody comb in the back right pocket.

Also, I forgot to add in the the expenses of owning my S65 the $300 extra I spent on adding a dipstick.

At one point I had an old Chevy C10 truck and a Volvo V70R. One of the cars in my driveway had wheel bearings that only lasted 30k miles, and it wasn't the 50 year old one made of soft iron. The dipstick thing reminds me that my 1968 Chevy C10 had a dipstick.
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      08-09-2019, 05:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
At one point I had an old Chevy C10 truck and a Volvo V70R. One of the cars in my driveway had wheel bearings that only lasted 30k miles, and it wasn't the 50 year old one made of soft iron.
You were lucky! Our V70R ate a left rear wheel bearing at 14k miles. ...and that was the 2nd V70R since the first one Volvo bought back from us due to all its issues they couldn't fix. The 2nd one lasted 11 months before we sold it with 16k miles to get rid of it and Volvo for good shortly after experiencing ABS ice mode on dry pavement trying to stop hard going over a bumpy road.
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      08-09-2019, 09:03 AM   #37
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Who among us has not bought Zymol at autozone because it sounded sortof like that Zaino stuff they were selling on the sunday morning car shows
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      08-09-2019, 05:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Who among us has not bought Zymol at autozone because it sounded sortof like that Zaino stuff they were selling on the sunday morning car shows
I must be too young? Googling this stuff now.
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      08-17-2019, 12:26 PM   #39
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FYI I know someone who ordered one and won't expect delivery until 7/20. His is an early 2021 model year because supposedly 2020 cars are sold out. I believe he paid a $7k ish "dealer market adjustment".
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