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      07-14-2007, 04:23 AM   #111
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I am sure the new M3 is a fantastic car, but so is also the RS4, and every time Audi win over BMW in tests, the BMW fanatics says something is wrong with the journalists, sounds weird to me
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      07-14-2007, 04:53 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audi4ever View Post
I am sure the new M3 is a fantastic car, but so is also the RS4, and every time Audi win over BMW in tests, the BMW fanatics says something is wrong with the journalists, sounds weird to me
the article itself calls the audi win a win by the narrowest of margins. trying to be objective about things, it just strikes me as odd how much more complimentary the article was of the M3, than of the RS4. no rational person on this board would say that the RS4 isn't an exceptional car... it is, and i'd take one anyday. it's hard to argue, though, with the M3's 0-60 in 4.4 (on poor pavement no less).
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      07-14-2007, 05:08 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
the article itself calls the audi win a win by the narrowest of margins. trying to be objective about things, it just strikes me as odd how much more complimentary the article was of the M3, than of the RS4. no rational person on this board would say that the RS4 isn't an exceptional car... it is, and i'd take one anyday. it's hard to argue, though, with the M3's 0-60 in 4.4 (on poor pavement no less).
Much sense in your post

The 335i is also a great car, and i read somewhere on the net that the 335 beats the RS4 on some track. No matter what car you choose between the M3 and the RS4, you choose fun, power and i am sure the most normal ppl would bee happy with either
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      07-14-2007, 05:13 AM   #114
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Here is some info about laptimes
Laptimes
Z06 - 2:58.2 min
911 GT3 - 3:01.8
Exige S - 3:04.5
Audi R8 - 3:04.6
911 Turbo - 3:05.8
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3:05.9 min
C6 (with Z51 package) - 3:09.3 min
BMW 335i - 3:10.5 min
Audi RS4 - 3:11.2
Z4M Coupé - 3:11.7 min
Mazda 3 MPS - 3:16.0
Mini Cooper S - 3:22.9. min

"RS4
Although it shares its V-8 engine with the R8, the Audi RS 4 didn’t impart the same sort of driving satisfaction. It’s a porky beast—at 3952 pounds, the heaviest of the 13 cars featured here. It’s actually better at masking its weight than the similarly obese Shelby GT500, but the mass is especially apparent when cornering, where the tires squeal in a protracted wail of protest.

The closest comparative car this time around was the BMW 335i coupe, which also has decent-sized rear seats. The BMW was almost one second quicker around VIR, despite dramatically lower peak speeds on the straights. The RS 4 simply overloads its tires too quickly when the steering wheel is turned. If it weren’t for the four-wheel-drive system ensuring that the power can be applied early at corner exit, the RS 4 would have been even farther behind the competition in the LL3 class.
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      07-14-2007, 05:52 AM   #115
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0-60 in 4.4 secs....

...by Car & Driver

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72117
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      07-14-2007, 06:01 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audi4ever View Post
Here is some info about laptimes
Laptimes
Z06 - 2:58.2 min
911 GT3 - 3:01.8
Exige S - 3:04.5
Audi R8 - 3:04.6
911 Turbo - 3:05.8
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3:05.9 min
C6 (with Z51 package) - 3:09.3 min
BMW 335i - 3:10.5 min
Audi RS4 - 3:11.2
Z4M Coupé - 3:11.7 min
Mazda 3 MPS - 3:16.0
Mini Cooper S - 3:22.9. min

"RS4
Although it shares its V-8 engine with the R8, the Audi RS 4 didn’t impart the same sort of driving satisfaction. It’s a porky beast—at 3952 pounds, the heaviest of the 13 cars featured here. It’s actually better at masking its weight than the similarly obese Shelby GT500, but the mass is especially apparent when cornering, where the tires squeal in a protracted wail of protest.

The closest comparative car this time around was the BMW 335i coupe, which also has decent-sized rear seats. The BMW was almost one second quicker around VIR, despite dramatically lower peak speeds on the straights. The RS 4 simply overloads its tires too quickly when the steering wheel is turned. If it weren’t for the four-wheel-drive system ensuring that the power can be applied early at corner exit, the RS 4 would have been even farther behind the competition in the LL3 class.
If you going to show VIR times, show them all including the updated ones.

1 - Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 2:58.2
2 - Ford GT: 3:00.7
3 - Dodge Viper: 3:01.6
4 - Porsche 911 GT3 -3:01.8
5 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 3:03.6
6 - Lotus Exige S - 3:04.5
7 - Audi R8 - 3:04.6
8 - Porsche 911 Turbo - 3:05.8
9 - Shelby GT500- 3:05.9
10 - Lotus Elise: 3:09.2
11 - Porsche Cayman S: 3:09.5
12 - BMW M6: 3:10.0
13 - BMW 335i - 3:10.5
14 - Audi RS4- 3:11.2
15 - BMW Z4M - 3:11.7
16 - Nissan 350Z: 3:12.5
17 - Mitsubishi Evo MR: 3:13.5
18 - Pontiac Solstice GXP - 3:15.7
19 - Mazda Speed 3 - 3:16.0
20 - Dodge Charger SRT8: 3:18.2
21 - Mazda RX-8: 3:19.0
22 - Chevy Cobalt SS: 3:20.6
23 - Ford Mustang GT: 3:20.9
24 - Mini Cooper S - 3:22.9
25/26 - VW GTI and Honda Civic Si: 3:24.6
27 - Mazda MX-5: 3:29.3
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      07-14-2007, 06:08 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBMW View Post
Sorry this is the link

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72117

http://www.caranddriver.com/previews...m3.html?al=124
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      07-14-2007, 03:29 PM   #118
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Agreed. Look at Autocar's review of the M3 (in UK week beginning 9th July). Jeez, Steve Sutcliffe who I've always felt is the most PRO-BMW man there ever was has just slated the M3. If Sutcliffe is saying this it must be true.

His conclusion is that the the M3CSL will be the car they were expecting. References to lack of torque, lack of build quality i.e. it doesn't feel special I agree with.

Oh and I've owned / experienced lots of cars (bit of racing too) and always felt that for that most of us who don't have Sutcliffe's ability to power oversteer in safety around UK roads means the S4 / RS4 has always been the easiest car to drive quickly. Go drive an RS4 before commenting on how it can't be better than an M3 -it's enjoyable to drive and by the looks of AutoExpresses figures it's faster than the M3. Bit shocked but the M3's superiority over the Audi's are no more.

Bring on the RS5.
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      07-14-2007, 03:42 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maserman View Post
Oh and I've owned / experienced lots of cars (bit of racing too) and always felt that for that most of us who don't have Sutcliffe's ability to power oversteer in safety around UK roads means the S4 / RS4 has always been the easiest car to drive quickly. Go drive an RS4 before commenting on how it can't be better than an M3 -it's enjoyable to drive and by the looks of AutoExpresses figures it's faster than the M3. Bit shocked but the M3's superiority over the Audi's are no more.

Bring on the RS5.
am i missing something here? did you read the same auto express article i did because i don't see these 'figures' you speak of. according to the article they consistently mention how the M3 is the faster car of the two - this is also outlined by another member in this thread - but their 'rating scheme' has the rs4 rated higher because of how the car felt or whatever...NOT because it's faster. i think i've posted enough real stats in this thread to support the M3 being all around faster than the rs4 and even on pace with the R8.
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      07-14-2007, 03:52 PM   #120
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The M3 can be as fast as it likes, but if the RS4 feels better at speed to the reviewer, the RS4 wins. Simple.
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      07-14-2007, 06:03 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jworms View Post
i can tell you for certain that the laptime you are referring to is invalid due to a couple of things. do some research and you'll find that the driver "Frank Stippler" is a pro driver for audi. The RS4 also had stickier tires - if i remember right they were pirelli p zero corsa tires which are race compound tires. they were definitely not stock tires when it ran that time. this is why i generally look at the sport auto times and use them as much as i can because they keep the driver variable (and other things - tires, etc.) from changing.

but good try.
You're absolutely correct <makes note to himself not to race a car on a track with race tires...that'd be dumb wouldn't it?!>.



However, this only serves to demonstrate my point that by far the biggest variable responsible for the difference between the times/speeds these cars achieve against each other will be the driver.

Both cars are unquestionably fast.

What will the premium be on a E92 M3 CSL? More than the premium on a MTM supercharged B7 RS4?

How about a comparison between those two?

Valid or not?

Discuss!

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      07-14-2007, 07:32 PM   #122
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Lets get some perspective here.

When BMW were developing the M3 E92 it is true that they looked over the
Audi RS4 - But this was not the Benchmark the original benchmark was the E46 M3 and the latest performance coupes from the likes of the base 911's to the Aston Martin V8 Vantage , Maserati Coupe etc, more mature rivals , As the 3er and M3 in general will no longer be the base entry BMW Coupe.
Which gives you the greatest clue to BMW's intentions with the 1er.

With the E90 4dr M3 this is the car that BMW have spent more time with the audi RS4 and Mercedes C-Klasse AMG because they are direct rivals to lead off a complete performance review against a Coupe and a sedan where plus and minues incorporate - Poor rear cabin space in a Coupe against a sedan is quite puzzling when they are two different types of cars.
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      07-14-2007, 07:58 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Lets get some perspective here.

When BMW were developing the M3 E92 it is true that they looked over the
Audi RS4 - But this was not the Benchmark the original benchmark was the E46 M3 and the latest performance coupes from the likes of the base 911's to the Aston Martin V8 Vantage , Maserati Coupe etc, more mature rivals , As the 3er and M3 in general will no longer be the base entry BMW Coupe.
Which gives you the greatest clue to BMW's intentions with the 1er.

With the E90 4dr M3 this is the car that BMW have spent more time with the audi RS4 and Mercedes C-Klasse AMG because they are direct rivals to lead off a complete performance review against a Coupe and a sedan where plus and minues incorporate - Poor rear cabin space in a Coupe against a sedan is quite puzzling when they are two different types of cars.


Scott,
Another good post. What will the differences be between the the e92 M3 and the E90 M3? Is the mileage of the M3 really as poor as tests indicate? Is BMW concerned about the bad press concerning mileage, especially given all the efficient dynamics talk. BMW said it would be 8% more efficient than the E46 M3. BMW can't just make up mileage numbers can they? Is BMW also worried about the bad press regarding light steering and lack of feel. Is it difficult for BMW to adjust the steering at this late stage? keep the posts coming. They are very informative.
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      07-15-2007, 03:45 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintenasi View Post
M3 fans - read this:
I NEVER found such a review about the RS4, although it's out for more than 2 years now. Looks like the new M3 lost it ... completely. The New King: Audi RS4. Actually not new, 2 years old, sorry.
The reason for this is straightforward: when the writer disregards all objective measures and bases his own findings on a comparison with 20-year-old predecessor, he neglects to mention that he's unable to do this with the RS4.
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      07-15-2007, 04:00 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintenasi View Post
M3 fans - read this:

The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.

If you wanna feel really bad, you can follow the link to read the full article.


I NEVER found such a review about the RS4, although it's out for more than 2 years now. Looks like the new M3 lost it ... completely. The New King: Audi RS4. Actually not new, 2 years old, sorry.


thanks for the apology audi fan boy, the rs4 was dispatched by the OLD m3 by the motoring bible evo. so it never was king...

unlucky

http://evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargroup...cedes_c55.html
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      07-15-2007, 04:32 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
You're absolutely correct <makes note to himself not to race a car on a track with race tires...that'd be dumb wouldn't it?!>.

well if you want to compare race compound tire times then we'll have to get an m3 to complete the 'ring with them too right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
However, this only serves to demonstrate my point that by far the biggest variable responsible for the difference between the times/speeds these cars achieve against each other will be the driver.

Both cars are unquestionably fast.
that's why i pointed out that i like the sport auto 'ring laptimes. they take those variables out of the equation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
What will the premium be on a E92 M3 CSL? More than the premium on a MTM supercharged B7 RS4?

How about a comparison between those two?

Valid or not?

Discuss!

i'd say it's not valid because it's not a stock car at that point. i mean, i could throw a turbo on my e36 M3 and run laps around ferraris for much less than what the ferrari cost...but i would definitely take the ferrari over my car. same thing with a fully built civic running laps around my car, i'll gladly take my car over the civic - this actually happened to me once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintenasi View Post
M3 fans - read this:

The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.

If you wanna feel really bad, you can follow the link to read the full article.


I NEVER found such a review about the RS4, although it's out for more than 2 years now. Looks like the new M3 lost it ... completely. The New King: Audi RS4. Actually not new, 2 years old, sorry.
lol. you just won't give up. that's the only thing you can hold on to now isn't it? i almost feel bad for you.
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      07-15-2007, 05:30 AM   #127
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I love the RS4, and im sure the new M3 will be amazing too. Though at the end of the day i think that BMW is much more fun to drive. Thats just my opinion though not hating on Audi
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      07-15-2007, 07:39 AM   #128
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Sorry

Again... since we are magazine racing, the RS4 looks like a (losing!) competitor to the 335i. Those who believe that BMW will make an M-Variant (M3) slower around a track (or strip) than a 335i will be let down.

READ:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=328

And how in the world will the new M3 weigh as much as the current M5? The RS4 is M5 weight. This publication seems like a MotorTrend/Autoweek type of toilet paper. Sorry Audi fanboys... deductive reasoning outweighs Consumer Reports type tests.

And I'm quite frankly sick of the "This car is too complicated" BS. It's not complicated at all! If anything, it isn't complicated enough. I did not read most of the article, but I'd be surprised if they didn't beat the dead I-Drive horse... yeah.... I-Drive is so bad that Audi and Merc made their own versions. Go figure?

If they can't deal with a knob and a few buttons, perhaps they should just get back into their muscle cars and remember to change their Depends... oh and learn how to use a computer... News Flash! Cell Phones now have color screens!!!!!
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      07-15-2007, 07:50 AM   #129
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[QUOTE=dazzapb;1178022]thanks for the apology audi fan boy, the rs4 was dispatched by the OLD m3 by the motoring bible evo. so it never was king...

The new RS4 would probarly overrun the M3 totally then it comes, about 2 years......BMW fanboy
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      07-15-2007, 08:08 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintenasi View Post
M3 fans - read this:

The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.

If you wanna feel really bad, you can follow the link to read the full article.


I NEVER found such a review about the RS4, although it's out for more than 2 years now. Looks like the new M3 lost it ... completely. The New King: Audi RS4. Actually not new, 2 years old, sorry.



This comes from someone who drove both cars on the same day.
The only thing close to real car to car comparison to date.
The steering was explained by SteveD:

"The new M3 is a great car. It hasn't gone soft. What a strange comment to make for a car that is 'more' hardcore than the E46 version it replaces.
The RS4 feels soft compared to the M3, and if anything we were wondering if BMW had lost too much of the E46's refinement."
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      07-15-2007, 08:39 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audi4ever View Post
The new RS4 would probarly overrun the M3 totally then it comes, about 2 years......BMW fanboy
If that happens, (which I doubt) it will only be because Audi waits until the end of the life cycle of ALL the competitions cars.
Mercedes, BMW and now even Lexus are releasing there cars at about the same time for a true head to head. Then after all is said and done here comes Audi at the end of all the competitions life cycles like they did with the previous AMG C and M3 and claim "look we beat them". Please..... If Audi really could or wanted to compete they would get on schedule with the other manufactures and go head to head like the other manufactures. Barely beating a $50,000 7 year old design RWD I6 with a brand new $66,000 AWD V8 is hardly an accomplishment. It's Audi's embarrasment.
But wait there's more.
If you act now you'll get with your order the M3 running up in the R8 a$$.

Is Audi gonig to make there new $66+K RS4/5 a better car then the $100+K R8 ? I think that would be bad for business


Audi Vs. BMW
NINJA please...... maybe in the future but not today. Audi better get is manufacture schedule and pricing together first.

BTW wtf is a fanboy...... you sound like a baby saying/writing that.
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      07-15-2007, 10:45 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_Defector View Post
I don’t care what any magazine says. In the end most of these magazines are in bed with the car manufactures anyway. But I talk from experience. I had a E46 great car. I am the new owner of a RS4..I just love every aspect of this car, the ergonomics, drivability, performance can be driven 12 months out of the year, and most of all, every where I go, I get stopped with a million questions, fingerprints on my window you name it. The fact remains, BMWs are a dime a dozen, there is no novelty in the car anymore. Every fringing body has one. But the RS4, hmm have not seen one in my area of NY since I got my 4 months ago and the exhaust just intoxicating. I can tell you that I see the new 3 series every dam day. I am glad I made the decision I did, I hate pulling up next to someone that is driving my car. In the end you will make your own decision, if you are unsure, go with the RS4, worth the $$ and is cheaper than the BMW.
You are probably right. However, if I'm going to spend $70,000+ on a car, it's not going to be on an M3 or an RS4, that's for sure. Try maybe 5 series or even 911!
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