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02-10-2015, 10:56 PM | #2201 | |||||
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EDIT: When I re-read your comments, I wonder if you're thinking we measured rod clearance. We didn't. We only measured bearing journal size. If we could also measure 96 connecting rod bearings installed, that could add another dimension to this data. Maybe it will be worth that steak dinner to see if I can get this data, even if it's only for 702/703 bearings. Last edited by regular guy; 02-10-2015 at 11:21 PM.. |
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02-12-2015, 08:21 PM | #2202 | |
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Given that tolerances are likely to similarly vary on every engine in every car, and therefore that there are likely to be situations in every car in which a "+deviation journal but still within factory spec" will "mate . . . to a connecting rod and bearing with a -deviation but still within factory spec," why is it only the S65 (or, perhaps the S54, S65, and S85) that have this problem? Is it because the target clearances (around which there are normal +/- variances) are already insufficient on the S65 (and possibly the S54 and S85), such that the design leaves no room (pun intended) for situations in which extreme +variances on the journal coincide with extreme -variances on the rod and bearing? These are genuine questions, not rhetorical. |
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02-12-2015, 09:55 PM | #2203 | ||
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02-12-2015, 11:18 PM | #2204 | |
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So is it just a matter of BMW screwing the pooch on their design? This is not unfathomable. (See 991 GT3 engine fires.) But if it does come down to a design defect, it is somewhat surprising that they never acknowledged the defect and initiated a recall. (Although I suppose they judged the cost of replacing failed engines to be less than the cost of doing a widespread recall.) |
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02-13-2015, 06:06 AM | #2205 |
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Most recalls are safety related. If people were dying in E9xM3s when the engines let go, there might be a recall. Even then, BMW would balance the cost of litigating cases and paying off the victims' families against the cost of recalling all cars and replacing all rod bearings or rods or cranks. Instead, BMW is doing as little as possible, and replacing engines only when it cannot avoid doing so. This is obviously the cheapest approach.
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02-13-2015, 06:22 PM | #2206 | |
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02-13-2015, 08:40 PM | #2207 | ||
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02-13-2015, 09:33 PM | #2208 |
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Ford Pintos in the 70s was not the last time car makers adopted this approach, unfortunately. The internet, however, has made covering up and hiding stuff much harder.
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02-14-2015, 05:24 PM | #2209 |
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Welcome back RG. I've taken a long break from the forum myself as well. There was some crazy stuff happening with moderation (IMHO) and the whole S55 under rating debate.
Anyway, thanks for the additional data. More data always helps. However, some criticisms as well:
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02-14-2015, 09:41 PM | #2210 |
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Helloa all just replaced my rod bearing at 65k miles. I have a 2009 m3
The findings were right in line with normal wear and tear. I drive my car very hard and I am the third owner. Tell me what you think of the pics |
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02-15-2015, 10:17 AM | #2212 | |
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So could you run that clearance spec, sure honda and toyota do it all the time but they also run 0w-20
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02-15-2015, 10:52 AM | #2214 | |
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02-15-2015, 12:53 PM | #2215 | |
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Anyway, I think at this point I want to see how the new design performs once released.
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02-15-2015, 01:10 PM | #2216 | |
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02-15-2015, 01:11 PM | #2217 |
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Swamp have you been lurking in the shadows waiting for RG's ban to be lifted? Seems kind of odd that you suddenly show up right after he does...
Hopefully any debate can remain civilized this time around. |
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02-15-2015, 01:38 PM | #2218 | |
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Obviously data is always a good thing and I've commended RG on multiple occasions, as well as help fund the purchase of parts whose measurements are reported here in this thread. Most of the posts since RG left were far less interesting and largely inconsequential as compared to some new data. Again, RGs conclusions about the data are absolutely not accurate nor founded and that is worthy of comment and discussion. In short the answer to your question is a clear "no". Does that satisfy your curiousity?
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02-15-2015, 01:47 PM | #2219 | |
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Your so called truism is a fancy word for they can't control tolerance worth a heck. If there were a engine here or there like the one Malek had that looked like there was something wrong with the main line and it ate the first journal up that is a truism as you would call it. How many sets of rods have you fit for the s65? RG and I have fit many and all but one set I did was under the clevite spec. As far as it being too loose there is a point that it will hurt it but if it were a .0005 too loose the only person that will know about it is the guy that bolted it together.
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02-15-2015, 01:48 PM | #2220 | ||
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I'm highly amused by the recent (highly negative) updates on coated bearings. There was outright joy, enthusiasm and near worship for such a wonderful solution for this problem when they first became available. And although I've not seen the data, nor heard that there is much of it, it seems clear that this solution, just ain't a solution. And of course, yours truly held this opinion early that reduced clearances were a bad idea and that the vendors providing these parts/services (treated or coated bearings) provided not a single iota of data/proof that they had a solution (or even a minor improvement).
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02-15-2015, 01:56 PM | #2221 | |
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Please provide me with one shred of data about bearing clearance tolerance variation vs. engine lifetime. You better stick to turning wrenches rather than discussing matters dominated by serious engineering and science. After all, you've never shared a single iota about your credentials. Too tight is no good and too loose is as well, there is a sweet spot in between and it depends on loads, part strength, redline, oil and other factors. For about the millionth time, I am NOT saying that extremes in tolerance stacking is not a factor here, I'm just saying that we have no proof and don't even have an appropriate metric or "yardstick" to use along with RGs new data. Do you feel that 1/10th of a thou standard deviation for crank rod journals is significantly higher than norm for a high performance production engine? If so that opinion or conclusion should be supported by your data. Let's see that. Again, that is only the first step, the next is some metric about how bad this standard deviation is (really the standard deviation in the clearance itself ultimately, but the new data here is more about the crank).
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02-15-2015, 01:57 PM | #2222 | |
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See 0 pics .. Actualy we all would love to see pics of your bearings...
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