BMW CCA L.A. 2-Day HPDE @ Spring Mountain, Dec. 28-29 2013

[OC3]

Here's how the 2 "instructions" I had when I started tracking went:

(1) on my 1st track day ever (April of 2011), which was at Streets of Willow with Extreme Speed, I pay for instructions and get paired up with an instructor who "instructs at Skip Barber." Great, right? So, my turn comes and he pops into the driver's seat, and I'm riding shotgun, and he proceeds to drive at like 8/10 or 9/10 around the track. The config that day was CW. On the first lap, he's screaming down the back straightaway and, as we're approaching the off-camber corner at the end of that back straightaway, I of course can't see what's beyond it, and imagine my terror as this guy just flies thru there without braking. Over next several HPDE events at Streets of Willow, I too eventually learned to go thru that section/turn without braking. But, to a first time HPDE student on that day, did this "instructor" have any idea how unnerving that ride was? So, after 4 laps at this pace, he pulls in, has me drive and I got to drive 2 laps with him pointing things out here & there before the session/instruction was over. Wow, what an invaluable learning experience...

(2) Later in that 1st year, a bunch of us attended Performance Driving Clinic (PDC) at Buttonwillow. It was to include instructions, as well as car control clinic. We get to the track, and the skidpad where the car control clinic was to be held at is full of RV's and support vehicles for a go-kart event. "Welp, I guess car control clinic ain't happening today, then." Now, the organizer insists that each driver let an instructor drive our car, with the student riding shotgun, so that "we can learn the track & its lines." Well sh*t, some of us have been at this track a couple of times already and didn't need nor want that "instruction." We just wanted track time! But, they insist. So, an experienced elder gentleman gets in my car and sees the paddle shifter and goes "Wow, this is cool. Never driven one before." Now, this guy didn't go screaming around the track like the Skip Barber guy. In fact, he's moving pretty slowly around the track. As he's driving around, he's playing with the paddle shifter and, each time the car/computer rev-matches perfectly, he's chuckling going "ho, ho, that's wonderful." And, that's how it went.

[USCTrojanMan29]

You'll find that the BMW CCA organizes a great track event and their instructors are very good for the most part. It sucks that you had bad previous experiences but trust me the BMW CCA is going to be way better. From all of my previous track events, the BMW CCA instructors only drive 2 of the first laps in your car at 60-70% mainly to get a feel for the car to give better input. I don't really need instruction either at this point, but I'm always open to constructive input on how I can improve my skills. I got started tracking with BMW CCA and give them credit for where my skills are today.

[tlp]

The instructors are supposed to drive your car one or two notches above your current ability to help set a target for you to aspire to. They are not supposed to flog the car @ 9/10 just to show off and scare the crap out of you.

[OC3]

Well, if CCA's unbendable rule is such that I gotta have an instructor, so be it.

The_Hack, so, care to clarify?

[admranger]

OC3: What group did you sign up for? Did you sign up to be in the A+ group, based on your experience? If you are in the A+ group, you'll get a 15 minute checkout ride first thing Saturday. That's the last time you'll have an instructor in the car unless you request one (or you f'up in a big way…).

Now, my guess as to who one of the A+ instructors is means you're in for a treat. The guy can flat out drive (and instruct), so you will have some top shelf instruction. No, it's not me. This guy is significantly better than me. Classroom sessions will be very informative, helping you get the most out of the car and driver.

If you want personalized instruction, then sign up for the B group. They're not slow, so don't be worried about that. However, you'll get an instructor who will drive your car the first few laps at a decent, but not fast pace. They'll point out the line, passing zones, escape routes should things go bad, and "flagger" stations (lights at SMMP). Then you'll pull into the hot pits, swap sides, and go out. Here's a hint: Drive smooth and hit your marks and build up speed from there. When I say "hit your marks", I mean at the B-level you should be inches from your turn in, apex, and track out marks. Your inputs should be smooth, not upsetting the balance of the car. Drifting shenanigans will be frowned upon. Smooth is fast. On Sunday, you get a new instructor. He doesn't drive your car. Be open to his/her inputs and suggestions and try new things. If you don't like the idea, you can try it, decide for sure you're not comfortable with it, inform your instructor, and try their next suggestion. Usually, you pick up things you like from both instructors. It's good to get different points of view.

You can be "signed off" both days. Being "signed off" means you are judged to be safe to go solo. However, you're learning curve becomes a billiard table with the instructor out of the car, so just b/c you are signed off doesn't mean you 'must' go solo. It's up to you. Sometimes it is a good idea to go solo to get rid of the crutch reminding you of a ton of stuff each lap then go out again with an instructor to make sure you are still doing it right!

IF you get an instructor that just isn't working out, just talk to the group leader at your tent. They'll do some shuffling and voila, new instructor (it's not that easy, so don't do this on a whim please).

Also, be sure to get rides with instructors. You'll get a sense for how it feels to be tossed about in the passenger seat (not really), and also an opportunity to watch the details of how they drive (focus on their inputs and car positioning).

See you there!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by admranger

OC3: What group did you sign up for? Did you sign up to be in the A+ group, based on your experience? If you are in the A+ group, you'll get a 15 minute checkout ride first thing Saturday. That's the last time you'll have an instructor in the car unless you request one (or you f'up in a big way…).

Now, my guess as to who one of the A+ instructors is means you're in for a treat. The guy can flat out drive (and instruct), so you will have some top shelf instruction. No, it's not me. This guy is significantly better than me. Classroom sessions will be very informative, helping you get the most out of the car and driver.

If you want personalized instruction, then sign up for the B group. They're not slow, so don't be worried about that. However, you'll get an instructor who will drive your car the first few laps at a decent, but not fast pace. They'll point out the line, passing zones, escape routes should things go bad, and "flagger" stations (lights at SMMP). Then you'll pull into the hot pits, swap sides, and go out. Here's a hint: Drive smooth and hit your marks and build up speed from there. When I say "hit your marks", I mean at the B-level you should be inches from your turn in, apex, and track out marks. Your inputs should be smooth, not upsetting the balance of the car. Drifting shenanigans will be frowned upon. Smooth is fast. On Sunday, you get a new instructor. He doesn't drive your car. Be open to his/her inputs and suggestions and try new things. If you don't like the idea, you can try it, decide for sure you're not comfortable with it, inform your instructor, and try their next suggestion. Usually, you pick up things you like from both instructors. It's good to get different points of view.

You can be "signed off" both days. Being "signed off" means you are judged to be safe to go solo. However, you're learning curve becomes a billiard table with the instructor out of the car, so just b/c you are signed off doesn't mean you 'must' go solo. It's up to you. Sometimes it is a good idea to go solo to get rid of the crutch reminding you of a ton of stuff each lap then go out again with an instructor to make sure you are still doing it right!

IF you get an instructor that just isn't working out, just talk to the group leader at your tent. They'll do some shuffling and voila, new instructor (it's not that easy, so don't do this on a whim please).

Also, be sure to get rides with instructors. You'll get a sense for how it feels to be tossed about in the passenger seat (not really), and also an opportunity to watch the details of how they drive (focus on their inputs and car positioning).

See you there!

I haven't signed up yet. Will do so around mid-December. I hope the roster is not filled up by that time.

I don't want to come across like I have a complete aversion to instructions. I was just relaying some laughable experiences during early days of my tracking endeavor, plus prefer as much track time as possible especially if the particular "instructions" I wind up getting turn out to be not beneficial. Obviously, no matter who you are, we all have room to learn more & such, but that can only happen if the instructor and the student are paired up appropriately. To that end, though, (and, although I've run the last 28 of 63 total events in red group) I'm not even sure exactly what level I'm at right now, lulz (although I'm fairly comfortable with car control to the extent that I'm not concerned with running into a wall & such, I still need to improve my lines at double apex type of corners, be more disciplined about not pinching a corner, etc). In any case, though, I do enjoy and always learn a thing or two when I occasionally ride shotgun and watch an experienced driver.

On my first visit to SMMR in October, I simply could not memorize the track, but in reviewing my videos later, I now have it pretty much memorized. I don't need lessons on the line there, passing zones, etc.

As for "smooth" inputs, lolz, well you got me there. I'm anything but smooth (hence, lots of oh sh*t moments video footages), although I'm now much more smoother than before.

In any case, a hypothetical question: if my first event with CCA is to be at Buttonwillow, a track that I've run 24 times, I still need instruction or need a checkout ride and get signed off? Just trying to understand the CCA culture. I did my first PCA event last month at Chuckwalla, and (after I told them how many events I've attended so far, and how many of those in red group) they just let me into the red group, there was no instructions, etc, and I had a great time. It was pretty much the same as other HPDE days, except that I was surrounded by mostly P cars.

[The HACK]

The CCA policy is that in-car instructors must be available to all participants. The wording leads to some flexibility in our A+ program, in that we have instructors available, but they only ride with you for the first session to make sure the head is screwed on straight and you won't be a problem with the intensive classroom curriculum and some of the exercises that bridge normal HPDE and the next step in performance driving.

So in your scenario, if you were to do a CCA event for the very first time, and it's at Buttonwillow, you will have an instructor with you. And the instructor will drive the first 3 laps, despite your experience at Buttonwillow. It is what it is, we MUST make sure that you're properly oriented to the track, regardless of your experience level. Blame it on the conservative nature of the CCA, but we feel that our long running track record of being one of the SAFEST event organizers is something that differentiates us from all the other track day organizers. Now, if you were to demonstrate deep understanding of the proper line at the track, and a full compliment of the fundamentals of driving fast at your disposal, it is unlikely that the instructor is going to want to sit with you for the remainder of the weekend after a session or two. 'Cause frankly, if we (instructors) have nothing more to teach you, we'd rather go turn our own laps (or rest in the shades, especially in Buttonwillow).

Now. Had you done a couple of events with CCA, and the regions CIs and organizers are familiar with you and your skill level and experience, and had you been recommended to take the A+ program, then you will only have to carry an instructor in the passenger seat for the first session of the first day when you sign up for A+. The reason being, is when we first toyed with the A+ program, we've had plenty of students that claim they've had XX numbers of events or churned Y number of laps and wanted to jump right into A+, and then we come to find out that's simply not true...And we've had some incidents with that particular program, so we've tightened the reigns on who we admit into A+. Has to have prior A+ experience in our program, or has to have instructor recommendation to take A+.

But yes. We do "earn" our conservative reputation for a reason. But part of that too, is that if you understand WHY we operate the way we operate, and if you can learn to keep an open mind about having an instructor in car and an open ear to his or her suggestions, there's no reason why anyone should have a bad time at our events.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

The CCA policy is that in-car instructors must be available to all participants. The wording leads to some flexibility in our A+ program, in that we have instructors available, but they only ride with you for the first session to make sure the head is screwed on straight and you won't be a problem with the intensive classroom curriculum and some of the exercises that bridge normal HPDE and the next step in performance driving.

So in your scenario, if you were to do a CCA event for the very first time, and it's at Buttonwillow, you will have an instructor with you. And the instructor will drive the first 3 laps, despite your experience at Buttonwillow. It is what it is, we MUST make sure that you're properly oriented to the track, regardless of your experience level. Blame it on the conservative nature of the CCA, but we feel that our long running track record of being one of the SAFEST event organizers is something that differentiates us from all the other track day organizers. Now, if you were to demonstrate deep understanding of the proper line at the track, and a full compliment of the fundamentals of driving fast at your disposal, it is unlikely that the instructor is going to want to sit with you for the remainder of the weekend after a session or two. 'Cause frankly, if we (instructors) have nothing more to teach you, we'd rather go turn our own laps (or rest in the shades, especially in Buttonwillow).

Now. Had you done a couple of events with CCA, and the regions CIs and organizers are familiar with you and your skill level and experience, and had you been recommended to take the A+ program, then you will only have to carry an instructor in the passenger seat for the first session of the first day when you sign up for A+. The reason being, is when we first toyed with the A+ program, we've had plenty of students that claim they've had XX numbers of events or churned Y number of laps and wanted to jump right into A+, and then we come to find out that's simply not true...And we've had some incidents with that particular program, so we've tightened the reigns on who we admit into A+. Has to have prior A+ experience in our program, or has to have instructor recommendation to take A+.

But yes. We do "earn" our conservative reputation for a reason. But part of that too, is that if you understand WHY we operate the way we operate, and if you can learn to keep an open mind about having an instructor in car and an open ear to his or her suggestions, there's no reason why anyone should have a bad time at our events.

Yeah, that's fine. When in Rome...

But, what's the reason for the instructor driving the first 3 laps? Is the intention here for the student to learn by observing the instructor, or is the instructor testing out the car?

And, how long does this classroom last?

[The HACK]

The first three laps is for student to get re-oriented to the track they're on. We can't assume everyone's been to the specific track, and even for those that are familiar, we've found that having sat in the passenger seat for a few laps at the beginning of the weekend ACCELERATES the learning curve. Being able to observe the track without having to drive it gives you the opportunity to see some of the nuances of the track, like where's the safest run-off or what turns might be good for setting up a pass or how much camber is really there or not there in a certain turn. It's not there so the instructor can joyride your car or set a baseline for you to beat, but to allow you the chance to soak in the details of the track without having to dedicate 100% of your available focus on driving.

As for classroom, if you're in A+, you're in class if you're not on track. For B-D, there's 3 25 minute classrooms each day tailored to your experience level.

[admranger]

OC3 -- I think you'll learn a ton in the B group. Just PM the Hack with your real name and I'm sure we can find an instructor that will help you with the smoothness of your inputs (hands and feet), not pinching, and improving your double apex lines (you'll have some opportunities at SMMP for that.

[aus]

Originally Posted by OC3

I haven't signed up yet. Will do so around mid-December. I hope the roster is not filled up by that time.

I don't want to come across like I have a complete aversion to instructions. I was just relaying some laughable experiences during early days of my tracking endeavor, plus prefer as much track time as possible especially if the particular "instructions" I wind up getting turn out to be not beneficial. Obviously, no matter who you are, we all have room to learn more & such, but that can only happen if the instructor and the student are paired up appropriately. To that end, though, (and, although I've run the last 28 of 63 total events in red group) I'm not even sure exactly what level I'm at right now, lulz (although I'm fairly comfortable with car control to the extent that I'm not concerned with running into a wall & such, I still need to improve my lines at double apex type of corners, be more disciplined about not pinching a corner, etc). In any case, though, I do enjoy and always learn a thing or two when I occasionally ride shotgun and watch an experienced driver.

On my first visit to SMMR in October, I simply could not memorize the track, but in reviewing my videos later, I now have it pretty much memorized. I don't need lessons on the line there, passing zones, etc.

As for "smooth" inputs, lolz, well you got me there. I'm anything but smooth (hence, lots of oh sh*t moments video footages), although I'm now much more smoother than before.

In any case, a hypothetical question: if my first event with CCA is to be at Buttonwillow, a track that I've run 24 times, I still need instruction or need a checkout ride and get signed off? Just trying to understand the CCA culture. I did my first PCA event last month at Chuckwalla, and (after I told them how many events I've attended so far, and how many of those in red group) they just let me into the red group, there was no instructions, etc, and I had a great time. It was pretty much the same as other HPDE days, except that I was surrounded by mostly P cars.

What you're probably going to find is the instructor is "holding you back" by asking you to be smoother. You'll feel like you're going slow, but if done right, you'll be going much faster- it just won't feel like you're going faster.
Also, gradually build your speed up to build up trust with your instructor in your ability. Ricky did his first CCA event at Buttonwillow and was going balls out, and I think it freaked his instructor out a little. He's really fast and I believe adamaranger was going to take him as his student the second day, but he never came back for the second day.

.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by aus

He's really fast and I believe adamaranger was going to take him as his student the second day, but he never came back for the second day.

I haven't been to BW in ages. I can't remember leaving a day early either. Hmmm…

However, there are different comfort zones and experience levels in different instructors. When I started doing driving schools, E36M3's were going to "kill all the instructors". Now we have GT3's and modded E92M3s out there on sticky tires tearing it up. It's a personal comfort level issue.

[aus]

Originally Posted by admranger

I haven't been to BW in ages. I can't remember leaving a day early either. Hmmm…

However, there are different comfort zones and experience levels in different instructors. When I started doing driving schools, E36M3's were going to "kill all the instructors". Now we have GT3's and modded E92M3s out there on sticky tires tearing it up. It's a personal comfort level issue.

I wasn't clear. A member here was doing his first CCA event there and felt like he was being held back by his instructor. You were going to take him out on Sunday, but he never came back- partly because it was almost 110 that weekend. You were doing classroom for the B group that weekend.

.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by aus

I wasn't clear. A member here was doing his first CCA event there and felt like he was being held back by his instructor. You were going to take him out on Sunday, but he never came back- partly because it was almost 110 that weekend. You were doing classroom for the B group that weekend.

.

I understood what you said.

[Triple M]

All signed up!!! I'm curious to see how much the instructing will be different from the PCA group that I have ran with on this track over the past few years on all of it's configurations. See you all there

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by Triple M

All signed up!!! I'm curious to see how much the instructing will be different from the PCA group that I have ran with on this track over the past few years on all of it's configurations. See you all there

You bringing the Fire Orange M3?

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

You bringing the Fire Orange M3?

Yes sir

[admranger]

Originally Posted by aus

I wasn't clear. A member here was doing his first CCA event there and felt like he was being held back by his instructor. You were going to take him out on Sunday, but he never came back- partly because it was almost 110 that weekend. You were doing classroom for the B group that weekend.

.

Gotcha. I vaguely remember that. I'm getting old (hey! you kids get off my lawn!!!!!).

We should be a bit cooler than 110 deg F at SMMP in December.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by Triple M

Yes sir

Sweet, I'll be in a purple GT3 RS.

[Triple M]

Can't wait. Learn something new every time I go out there, especially sine they have so many configuration. Zora's run and ego check here I come

[admranger]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

Sweet, I'll be in a purple GT3 RS.

Must resist urge to drool…

Oh well, I give into temptation pretty easily.

I'll be in a red M3. Not sure which one, but it'll be red and have a real transmission in it.

[aus]

Where's everyone staying??