V10 (S85) 2008 e90 m3 SWAP!

[Richbot]

This discussion reminds of the time I thought an S65 front cover on an S85 would be a cool motor

[petar7408]

wow, read this- seeing you guys waste years on this thread only to have me skim through it in mere minutes is very sad as it ends with no actual *anything*

maybe he is out there enjoying it, one can hope

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jcolley

The unknown to me will be the transplant into the chassis.

For anyone not familiar with the S85, it has it's own range of problems the S65 is free of. Rod bearings are not an "if" on the S85, they're a "when". Clearance seems to solve that, at least in my experience.

The S65 is free of VANOS errors and the S85 is a nightmare with VANOS solenoid and the HP VANOS pump that goes with it. Most often the problems are the result of rod bearing swarf, but the VANOS pumps themselves are vulnerable to picking debris as well.

abnormaly worn RBs in S65/S85 is *not* a "clearance" issue, not an opinion but proven observations. There is a documented M3 case with a low mileage engine which had worn oem RB replaced with Callico coated new OEM RB + ARP bolts then supercharged, driven for 15k miles then dissasembled again. The coated RB looked pristine as if they've never been put in an engine and yet the coating adds thickness. More likely, the S65,S85 blocks lack sufficient rigidity due to weight saving minimal inter cylinder walls thickness. The coating acts as a dry lubricant preventing the excessive vibrations eating into the RB material.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

abnormaly worn RBs in S65/S85 is *not* a "clearance" issue, not an opinion but proven observations. There is a documented M3 case with a low mileage engine which had worn oem RB replaced with Callico coated new OEM RB + ARP bolts then supercharged, driven for 15k miles then dissasembled again. The coated RB looked pristine as if they've never been put in an engine and yet the coating adds thickness. More likely, the S65,S85 blocks lack sufficient rigidity due to weight saving minimal inter cylinder walls thickness. The coating acts as a dry lubricant preventing the excessive vibrations eating into the RB material.

This is fun...

Facts aside, first you say the calico coated bearings without wear prove that there isn't a clearance issue, then you say it was the coating that prevented the wear which actually weakens your first argument against the doomsday clearance conspiracists, and then you propose a "more likely" scenario out of left field...more likely based on what?

This was a great scientific study you've provided.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

This is fun...

Facts aside, first you say the calico coated bearings without wear prove that there isn't a clearance issue, then you say it was the coating that prevented the wear which actually weakens your first argument against the doomsday clearance conspiracists, and then you propose a "more likely" scenario out of left field...more likely based on what?

This was a great scientific study you've provided.

False, and not what i said.
The 'insufficient clearance' repudiation/disproof stands on a factual experiment done over time and described above. No "scientific study" is needed to disprove a theory. If insufficient clearance was the problem then adding more thickness by coating new oem bearings should make things worse. It did not. Therefore it is not an insufficient clearance problem, period. There goes that false theory. Let me guess you got jacked buying a certain company's RB that claims they solved a 'clearance problem'. Lol.

Yes, i provided an excessive vibrations theory. Unlike the "insufficient clearance" theorists I never affirmed that it's a proven correct diagnosis but at least there are no factual evidence to disprove it up to now. Bring the facts to disprove it. There is no need for sarcasm or distorsion. Apparently you don't understand basic logic.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

False, and not what i said.
The 'insufficient clearance' repudiation/disproof stands on a factual experiment done over time and described above. No "scientific study" is needed to disprove a theory. If insufficient clearance was the problem then adding more thickness by coating new oem bearings should make things worse. It did not. Therefore it is not an insufficient clearance problem, period. There goes that false theory. Let me guess you got jacked buying a certain company's RB that claims they solved a 'clearance problem'. Lol.

Yes, i provided an excessive vibrations theory. Unlike the "insufficient clearance" theorists I never affirmed that it's a proven correct diagnosis but at least there are no factual evidence to disprove it up to now. Bring the facts to disprove it. There is no need for sarcasm or distorsion. Apparently you don't understand basic logic.

Apparently...

P.S. I haven't changed rod bearings, but I guess I should retrofit my engine with some bracing to enhance it's rigidity. Will you be offering an engine stiffness solution soon?

Edit: I think it's more likely that engines are failing because BMW hates Mercedes Benz. Please bring facts to disprove it because I haven't the time, skill, or motivation to bring forth the facts myself.

[wildwildwes17]

any updates? I found two s85's for sale near me for cheap. I can make one good one out of them. I want to stick it in my e90 m3. I have no idea what is involved with the electronics but I am good with fabricating. Anyone know of any places to start looking?

[Sid3waze]

Originally Posted by wildwildwes17

any updates? I found two s85's for sale near me for cheap. I can make one good one out of them. I want to stick it in my e90 m3. I have no idea what is involved with the electronics but I am good with fabricating. Anyone know of any places to start looking?

Not worth the hassle. Buy a supercharger.

[8500RPM]

Originally Posted by wildwildwes17

any updates? I found two s85's for sale near me for cheap. I can make one good one out of them. I want to stick it in my e90 m3. I have no idea what is involved with the electronics but I am good with fabricating. Anyone know of any places to start looking?

If you search through youtube there is a Russian guy running around the city in a S85 E92 M3. It can be done but the electronics are very difficult to figure out.

If someone could figure these V10 swaps out into E9X chassis they'd be rich! I'd rather have a V10 E92 than a supercharged E92 V8 but that's just me.

[BayE30]

Originally Posted by 8500RPM

If you search through youtube there is a Russian guy running around the city in a S85 E92 M3. It can be done but the electronics are very difficult to figure out.

If someone could figure these V10 swaps out into E9X chassis they'd be rich! I'd rather have a V10 E92 than a supercharged E92 V8 but that's just me.

Hartge H50 e90.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by 8500RPM

If you search through youtube there is a Russian guy running around the city in a S85 E92 M3. It can be done but the electronics are very difficult to figure out.

If someone could figure these V10 swaps out into E9X chassis they'd be rich! I'd rather have a V10 E92 than a supercharged E92 V8 but that's just me.

The electronics are actually quite easy.

[Richbot]

sooooo is it possible to use the cam drive and timing mechanism from the S65 on an S85 block and heads?

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Richbot

sooooo is it possible to use the cam drive and timing mechanism from the S65 on an S85 block and heads?

Anything is possible....if you have billet heads made.

The oil passages for the VANOS solenoids and how it's fed to the front of the cams it completely different.

Having said that, I don't think there would be any benefit. All the S85's VANOS issues (IMO) are a function of debris in the engine. I've had two Parker 1 micron cartridge type filters sitting on my desk for over a year now with the intention of putting them in the upper VANOS line of an S85 as a "proper" prefilter the way we did in industrial hydraulics. Given the high pressure of the S85 system, the VANOS solenoid cartridges are a non-software sealed spool. It relies on .0001" clearance on the spool to cartridge for flow isolation. As soon as bearing (or any other) debris makes it into the VANOS pump, it's on to the solenoids and that's when their operation becomes sluggish and can cause "hunting" in reaching setpoint values. The actual flow through the system is relatively low, none needed unless phasing is being changed, so I'm hoping a 1 micron filter doesn't provide too much head loss for operation. There are parameters in the DME which limit how fast it can change anyway, implying the system is mechanically capable of far more than is desirable anyway.

[Richbot]

soooo we doing this flat plane S85 e90 build then or what?

I dig it as a solution that's interesting. But I'd want a way to backflush those suckers

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by jcolley

The electronics are actually quite easy.

How easy? Just an ECU swap?

[8500RPM]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

How easy? Just an ECU swap?

From my limited research it's a lot more involved than an ECU swap. The shop that commented said the wiring is easy. Like I said if any ship can standardize this swap they'd make a killing. Why replace a blown S65 with another S65 when you could throw in a S85? Engine prices on ebay aren't that far apart.

[jcolley]

Trivial. I have a modified MSS60 running an S85 for an M5 DCT swap. It was easier to modify the M3 DME for 10 cylinders and change the firing order, etc than it was to transplant DCT code to an M5 DME.

At this point we are 99% certain we can make the mss60 run a flat plane V8 as well, will be testing with RG's build as well as our parallel build. In fact, we can alter the code to run any port injection engine configuration up to 10 cylinders. V10, V-8, V-6 , I6, I4, etc. This should make it possible to use pretty much any engine with the DCT. Obviously, properly and fully calibrating another engine is a massive chore, fortunately the S85 is already done for us.

For an E9x swap, the mechanical portion will be a much larger undertaking. We almost had a client pull the trigger on his E91 M3 project, but opted to stick with the S65 due to time constraints.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by jcolley

Trivial. I have a modified MSS60 running an S85 for an M5 DCT swap. It was easier to modify the M3 DME for 10 cylinders and change the firing order, etc than it was to transplant DCT code to an M5 DME.

At this point we are 99% certain we can make the mss60 run a flat plane V8 as well, will be testing with RG's build as well as our parallel build. In fact, we can alter the code to run any port injection engine configuration up to 10 cylinders. V10, V-8, V-6 , I6, I4, etc. This should make it possible to use pretty much any engine with the DCT. Obviously, properly and fully calibrating another engine is a massive chore, fortunately the S85 is already done for us.

For an E9x swap, the mechanical portion will be a much larger undertaking. We almost had a client pull the trigger on his E91 M3 project, but opted to stick with the S65 due to time constraints.

P65 conversion please.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

P65 conversion please.

Pretty much. Some differences though.

[Dr M3an M3]

Sub'd. One of my favorite motors. I mean, the S65 is an incredible engine and produces an incredible sound....But those extra 2 cylinders really are transformative.

[Assimilator1]

Well this is a shame that it seems have come to nothing, or he did finish it but didn't update .

1 slight glimmer of hope though :-
Sti2e92sedan
Last Activity: 10-25-2019 09:07 AM

Although he hasn't posted anything since 3/2016.

Are you out there Sti2e92sedan?

[edit] I just PMed the builder of this car, sadly he hasn't posted in just over a year, and - Last Activity: 04-03-2019 07:42 PM

[Sti2e92sedan]

So a little update. I haven’t been in here in sometime. First of all thank you all for following this project.

I’m to the point that the engine is in the car and we finally got it to turn on. But the engine is in fault/limp mode. We might be stuck at this point but the engine seems fine and working well. There are a couple more fault codes we are fixing hoping that would take it out of fault