Test drove an F80 today...

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

This is an interesting thought...If brand new E9X M3's and the F8X M3/4's were sold with the exact same tech/luxury packages, concurrently at roughly the same pricing, how many people would purchase the E9X?

I would just do the same thing I already did, and buy a second hand E9X in the 10k mileage range.

There's a lot of intangibles in there, but assuming you put the S65 from the GTS (or a DINAN stroker version) in the F8X chassis and offered it as an option to compete with the Shelby, Corvettes etc. I think there would be a buyer market for it. People still love V8's in the US. If you sold the cars as is side by side, I don't think the E9x would sell much honestly.

[New2Roundel]

I don't know how many folks in the midst of the CCB argument have driven both on a track, back to back, but I have. And those who did the M track day events have as well. We drove the M3 + CCBs and the M2 + steel rotors. It's not exactly apples to oranges since the cars are different, but it's close enough for an internet discussion. Frankly, I liked the CCBs much more on the track. They were more consistent in braking as they seemed less impacted by heat. They simple didn't fade and maintained consistent brake feel. The M2 did very well also, but I didn't think the pedal felt as consistent. And for me, getting the most out of the car requires confidence and trust in what your driving. For me, if money wasn't an issue, I'd go with the CCBs 10 times out of 10 if I was buying a new M car that was going to see track time.

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by IB M

Sit in the back of my F80. Leather heated rear seats. Very nicely done and a luxury ride if ur a kid 12 years or under or an adult less than 5' 5" in height.

Originally Posted by dmk08

The rear seat in my F80 was heated. It was also rippled and crappy looking from the factory. BMW said they would replace it for 2 years and never did.

Heated Rears is part of the Exec package right? A $4000 option? I left that option off my M4 I thought it was useless.

Yeah, I'm just not sold when the Lyft driver shows up in a Camry and I think to myself "not too bad back here".

Sure, the heated rear seats are an option not available on a Camry, but I'll be damned if the overall look and feel aren't far off. Even the way the doorskin is dismantled is, you guessed it, just like a Camry now and it shows.

Or maybe you're saying children and short people aren't able to gauge quality and so the rear seat doesn't matter?

I'm glad the F80/30 are lighter but when you grow larger and lighter without momentous step forward in overall materials or design some sacrifices are made.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by tlow98

Yeah, I'm just not sold when the Lyft driver shows up in a Camry and I think to myself "not too bad back here".

Sure, the heated rear seats are an option not available on a Camry, but I'll be damned if the overall look and feel aren't far off. Even the way the doorskin is dismantled is, you guessed it, just like a Camry now and it shows.

Or maybe you're saying children and short people aren't able to gauge quality and so the rear seat doesn't matter?

I'm glad the F80/30 are lighter but when you grow larger and lighter without momentous step forward in overall materials or design some sacrifices are made.

I'm not sure I really follow - not debating, just trying to understand the thought process here.

A modern Camry is a super nice car - damn nice. Have you looked inside the Avalon? Ultra nice - and that car retails under 40k. If I wanted a luxury car there's no way in hell I'd spend $80k on a 5 series when the Avalon is as nice or nicer for half the money. The difference is in the chassis and drivetrain. In other words, one should not expect a 5 series to be notably "nicer" than the flagship Toyota because it won't be.

The point of the F80 is not to be "nicer" than a Camry. It's to offer cutting edge performance technology and engineering (chassis and drivetrain) combined with an upper-middle-class fit and finish. You can get similar fit and finish for much less money, but the car won't be as good/engaging to drive/same performance level.

After all, the Camry is what a Lexus is based on and Lexus' are very, very nice cars.

[IB M]

Toyota Camry - that's funny

.. for the record

I love my F80, just did 300 miles up and back to NC mountains. Beautiful weather, awesome stereo, wide open runs on route 74 west of Shelby, twisty mountain roads, picked up two kids at Camp, too many to count compliments and looks about the car.

I've owned a 13 ZCP from new and a 17 ZCP from new - combined 30,000 miles of drive time - if anything, quality and luxury feel of 17 is better than 13 IMO. No rattles in 17, one small rattle from gear lever in the 13. Drop the kids off at school in car pool lane in the 17 and teachers won't stop asking about SO leather interior and how nice it is to the point it's embarrassing.

I run the F80M hard, no worries, she is stout. On the E92M I run hard but i worry about rod beatings, throttle actuators and that silly automatic seat belt helper. Don't get me wrong, I ain't ever selling my E92 but I'm here to say the F80 is one hell of a daily driver, comfortable, good quality, sports car.

I got no problem if you don't like the F80 for whatever reasons and it's not for you but let's not say crazy things about an overall great car.

Lastly - If you want luxury go buy a Bentley or a Rolls.

I'm still laughing about the Camry comment

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by IB M

Toyota Camry - that's funny

I'm still laughing about the Camry comment

Lolollololololol.

You should check out a brand new Accord - you'd be shocked how nice of a car they are for $24k. They even drive very well (the sports). I helped a close friend test drive during her recent purchase. Damn nice cars. Don't assume.

F80s are nice indeed, but they're not that nice and they definitely rattle more than an $80k car should. They are notably more plastic-y on the inside than my 14 year old E46. True story.

[IB M]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Lolollololololol.

You should check out a brand new Accord - you'd be shocked how nice of a car they are for $24k. They even drive very well (the sports). I helped a close friend test drive during her recent purchase. Damn nice cars. Don't assume.

F80s are nice indeed, but they're not that nice and they definitely rattle more than an $80k car should. They are notably more plastic-y on the inside than my 14 year old E46. True story.

No doubt the new accords and Camry are nice, great family car, but they are a different car completely.

A FWD Camry vs a 450 hp RWD car - please - I don't care if the Camry has sheepskin seats with velvet inlays and the F80M has cardboard seats - I know what I'll be driving.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by IB M

No doubt the new accords and Camry are nice, great family car, but they are a different car completely.

A FWD Camry vs a 450 hp RWD car - please - I don't care if the Camry has sheepskin seats with velvet inlays and the F80M has cardboard seats - I know what I'll be driving.

Exactly.

BMWs cost more because of the engineering and performance, not necessarily because of their interiors (although their interiors are quite nice). But one should not expect the interior of a 3 series to be notably better than that of an Accord or Camry because it costs more - they will be disappointed - that's not where the differences are, is my point (and yours, too).

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I don't know how many folks in the midst of the CCB argument have driven both on a track, back to back, but I have. And those who did the M track day events have as well. We drove the M3 + CCBs and the M2 + steel rotors. It's not exactly apples to oranges since the cars are different, but it's close enough for an internet discussion. Frankly, I liked the CCBs much more on the track. They were more consistent in braking as they seemed less impacted by heat. They simple didn't fade and maintained consistent brake feel. The M2 did very well also, but I didn't think the pedal felt as consistent. And for me, getting the most out of the car requires confidence and trust in what your driving. For me, if money wasn't an issue, I'd go with the CCBs 10 times out of 10 if I was buying a new M car that was going to see track time.

Apples to oranges.

Factory pads on steel rotors are designed for people to get groceries. They are not intended for track use.

A true comparison would be a proper steel BBK vs the CCB with the same chassis on the same track on the same day and compare lap times. Feel is subjective, lap times are not.

[neilum]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Lolollololololol.

You should check out a brand new Accord - you'd be shocked how nice of a car they are for $24k. They even drive very well (the sports). I helped a close friend test drive during her recent purchase. Damn nice cars. Don't assume.

F80s are nice indeed, but they're not that nice and they definitely rattle more than an $80k car should. They are notably more plastic-y on the inside than my 14 year old E46. True story.

F80's had issues with the felt lining on top of the doors where it met the CF roof. This was a well documented issue with an official TSB through BMW. I hung out on F80 boards, went to several F80 meets and talked to hundred of people with them and saw 0 people who's car still rattled after getting this fixed.

My '15 also "rattled" when I first got it, but I just took it to the dealer and they fixed it, never had an issue again.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by neilum

F80's had issues with the felt lining on top of the doors where it met the CF roof. This was a well documented issue with an official TSB through BMW. I hung out on F80 boards, went to several F80 meets and talked to hundred of people with them and saw 0 people who's car still rattled after getting this fixed.

My '15 also "rattled" when I first got it, but I just took it to the dealer and they fixed it, never had an issue again.

Yep, I've read about that as you know I'm considering the F80Z although that door is closing quickly as 'new' examples are disappearing quickly and production is done.

That said, both new cars I drive had A-pillar/dash rattles which really turned me off. These were cars with like 8 miles on them.

My E90 also rattles more than my 46.

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

I'm not sure I really follow - not debating, just trying to understand the thought process here.

A modern Camry is a super nice car - damn nice. Have you looked inside the Avalon? Ultra nice - and that car retails under 40k. If I wanted a luxury car there's no way in hell I'd spend $80k on a 5 series when the Avalon is as nice or nicer for half the money. The difference is in the chassis and drivetrain. In other words, one should not expect a 5 series to be notably "nicer" than the flagship Toyota because it won't be.

The point of the F80 is not to be "nicer" than a Camry. It's to offer cutting edge performance technology and engineering (chassis and drivetrain) combined with an upper-middle-class fit and finish. You can get similar fit and finish for much less money, but the car won't be as good/engaging to drive/same performance level.

After all, the Camry is what a Lexus is based on and Lexus' are very, very nice cars.

Yeah, Lexus, Toyota, etc. are all great cars. Let me see if I can state this another way.

It's just that in the not too distant past (e9x, e46,e36 gen) the two cars (camry vs 3 series) were not comparable w.r.t. interior quality and perceived quality, aka snob factor. Which, admittedly, I like a nice interior. It seems the Germans were always way ahead in this area for the entry luxury market, aka, 3 series. Now it seems the 3 series has taken a step back and the Camry 2 steps forward.

And yeah, they rattle a LOT less too. Kind of leaves me wondering why I can't have my cake and eat it like I used to. Not that my E91 doesn't have its fair share of annoying rattles, it does. My E46 M3 on coilovers did not but had less mileage.

Why must we give up something that was previously great (interior) for something we always got (performance) for the same relative money and gap in performance?

Seems like we're getting less overall?

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Lolollololololol.

You should check out a brand new Accord - you'd be shocked how nice of a car they are for $24k. They even drive very well (the sports). I helped a close friend test drive during her recent purchase. Damn nice cars. Don't assume.

F80s are nice indeed, but they're not that nice and they definitely rattle more than an $80k car should. They are notably more plastic-y on the inside than my 14 year old E46. True story.

Bingo. I've started looking at sedans as a second car and the F80 was a prime target. Rented one on Turo a couple times now and I just can't get past the interiors. In many ways, it's actually worse than a Camry. I guess I'm just having a hard time with this new direction?

Originally Posted by IB M

No doubt the new accords and Camry are nice, great family car, but they are a different car completely.

A FWD Camry vs a 450 hp RWD car - please - I don't care if the Camry has sheepskin seats with velvet inlays and the F80M has cardboard seats - I know what I'll be driving.

Yeah, but we didn't have to sit on cardboard and now we do, for the same money and same relative performance gap. Don't get me wrong, I love performance as much as the next guy, but if i'm driving on the street 99% of the time I don't want to be looking at some run-of-the-mill GM-looking plastic for $70k.

It's just odd that we used to get both for a reasonable sum of money and now we only get one, the performance.

I guess Porsche is the only place to go?