The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by OC3

Agreed!

Besides, unless you are a robot, there's almost no way to drive faster & faster and have perfect timing each and every time with steering, gas and braking. So, arguably, humans who drive smooth on the tracks aren't driving hard enough.




Absolutely. That is the key, isn't it.




On certain fast turns at certain tracks, I saw the steering wheel to do that. I keep the saw'ing to a level so as to keep the lateral weight transfers from swinging too wildly. When I resort to it, I'd saw 2 or 3 times to go thru a corner and I'm able to get out of there carrying much more speed than otherwise; or, in other cases, make it thru the corner where, otherwise, I'd understeer or push thru it.

I'm still torn about the effectiveness of seesawing the steering wheel. I was an Apache pilot for 10yrs with the Army and even from flight school, we were taught to be smooth and concise with inputs. The less the better, the instructors would always show that "stirring the pot" with the cyclic doesn't do anything, you are just canceling out your input. I applied that same philosophy with my driving style, and focus on steering the car with minimum steering input by steering with the throttle and brakes. I may be putting too much concentration and lately I've been more liberal with my steering inputs. I see race car drivers seesawing the wheel like mad men and there's no doubt they are fast so I may need to switch up my style. I would like to think my piloting skills make me a better track driver but I'm beginning to think that it may be actually holding me back!

[FTS]

IMHO, what is important is not the smoothness of inputs, but the outputs resulting in smooth vehicle behavior.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by FTS

IMHO, what is important is not the smoothness of inputs, but the outputs resulting in smooth vehicle behavior.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by FTS

IMHO, what is important is not the smoothness of inputs, but the outputs resulting in smooth vehicle behavior.

Yes sir.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I'm still torn about the effectiveness of seesawing the steering wheel. I was an Apache pilot for 10yrs with the Army and even from flight school, we were taught to be smooth and concise with inputs. The less the better, the instructors would always show that "stirring the pot" with the cyclic doesn't do anything, you are just canceling out your input. I applied that same philosophy with my driving style, and focus on steering the car with minimum steering input by steering with the throttle and brakes. I may be putting too much concentration and lately I've been more liberal with my steering inputs. I see race car drivers seesawing the wheel like mad men and there's no doubt they are fast so I may need to switch up my style. I would like to think my piloting skills make me a better track driver but I'm beginning to think that it may be actually holding me back!

I never had proper driving instruction, so I guess my journey is kind of opposite from yours (I've cut down a lot on unnecessary steering movements over time).

But, again, on certain type of corner, I intentionally saw and I swear I carry so much more speed thru it. Imagine a weight pendulum swinging laterally but never going outside the outer body side panels.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by FTS

IMHO, what is important is not the smoothness of inputs, but the outputs resulting in smooth vehicle behavior.

+1, and which, in turn, results in as much of all 4 tires in contact (grip) with the tarmac at all times as possible.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by OC3

+1, and which, in turn, results in as much of all 4 tires in contact (grip) with the tarmac at all times as possible.

Doesn't help if in the grass.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Doesn't help if in the grass.

Nor, as in SoCal, if in the dirt.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Doesn't help if in the grass.

Originally Posted by OC3

Nor, as in SoCal, if in the dirt.

Smoothness may not be preserved under those conditions

[OC3]

Originally Posted by FTS

Smoothness may not be preserved under those conditions

Yes, but @1MOREMOD lives there.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by FTS

Smoothness may not be preserved under those conditions

I don't know but I've had some smooth ass spins.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I'm still torn about the effectiveness of seesawing the steering wheel. I was an Apache pilot for 10yrs with the Army and even from flight school, we were taught to be smooth and concise with inputs. The less the better, the instructors would always show that "stirring the pot" with the cyclic doesn't do anything, you are just canceling out your input. I applied that same philosophy with my driving style, and focus on steering the car with minimum steering input by steering with the throttle and brakes. I may be putting too much concentration and lately I've been more liberal with my steering inputs. I see race car drivers seesawing the wheel like mad men and there's no doubt they are fast so I may need to switch up my style. I would like to think my piloting skills make me a better track driver but I'm beginning to think that it may be actually holding me back!

I thought the whole "seesawing" steering input you see in pro racing was really a test to determine how close the tires are to the limit (since race slicks have a more abrupt loss in grip vs slip than street tires)? Or maybe it is more of a "how are my tires wearing" in a scenario where they know there is additional grip...i.e. butt dyno feel for the tire grip given the impulse like inputs?

[drob23]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread for their input. As a novice nearing the intermediate level in HPDE (done 4 DE's so far with BMWCCA and ANCA), I've noticed quite a different attitude from instructors. Some really encourage picking up speed and turning off ESC aids, while others are hard on the "you need to drive slow before going fast".

The simple reality is most people, like myself, who go to these events have pretty powerful cars. A factory 335i is attainable to someone with middle class means, and that car is ridiculously capable out of the box. The novice group always seems to have the most polished, fast, DD's...maybe modulo all the real track cars like GT3's. The instructor cars are almost always caged out e36 M3's or the like.

I am probably one of those people you all can't stand , modified car with an additional 70 WHP (well in fairness, that probably goes once the heat soak sets in), luckily my car is actually pretty controllable and the modifications I made were vetted by other people in the S4 community on the track. I.e. I had the right tires (PSS) and had at least flushed the brake fluid and pads (although I ultimately did go off after cooking the brakes, BBK now ). I was one of those people who played GT growing up, so I was pretty confident during my first DE. Luckily, my car is really heavy and dynamically conservative (lots of off throttle understeer), and the AWD seems to make it pretty progressive with any kind of throttle oversteer.

But the main response to the issue at hand pertains to the overall philosophy of my instructors. I found the really conservative ones to be somewhat frustrating at first, since I didn't feel like I was "doing the car justice", but I really respected the more serious attitude. Contrast this with the instructor who was "WOW we haven't been passed all weekend" and "these other slow cars need to get the hell out of our way" type attitude...and I will openly admit with these instructors - I felt really good about myself and my car, while on the other hand I don't think I was developing proper respect for the ground rules of the track. It was just, "when do I go up to intermediate", as if the run groups are badges of how fast you are.

Asking everyone to check their ego at the door can become really hard when your instructor is playing a big part in feeding it. I understand this is a tough balance to strike, since you also want your student to like you (and possibly give you a good review?). When I taught in grad school, it was always tough because the kids I liked and helped with HW would usually not learn things come test time.

It's hard to put a finger on exactly what the right kind of instruction should entail. I think it does involve the student understanding the philosophy of the HPDE (a lot of what has been written in this thread is a good framework), which might ultimately be something the student is responsible for. I guess it also depends on the long term intent, and whether this is something just to try for fun, or become a life skill that one can become passionate about.

I might also appreciate getting access to more resources. It's a little much to ask newbie's to read books about race car driving, on the other hand, it might make sense to provide more resources than simply an "intro packet" telling you what to do before and "you're gonna have a blast". Some groups have fantastic websites with all kinds of material. I think this would be a great resource. I've learned a lot about HPDE's through reading this type of thread and HPDE instructor guide books that are easily available online.

My .02

[Z K]

Every instructor is different... having instructed before for track days, I will say that I really sit back and see what the driver is doing before I give input. The most basic thing is the line. After you learn the line for the track, you can pick up the speed. Once you go faster, you really appreciate why the line is there and how it is keeping you on the road and getting fast laps. If you just go onto a track and go all out, you'll never pick up these nuances.

I tell everyone, drive at a pace you are comfortable with. If you feel unsure about going fast, then back off. You are driving beyond your limit - not the limit of the car but your own limit. Slow down and pick up the speed once you are used to it and move it up.

Then again, I've instructed people who don't feel comfortable driving at high speeds... I had a student that wanted to drive no more than 60mph on the front straights. I respect that and we just pulled over and pointed everyone by. He still had a great time and that's what counts!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by drob23

I thought the whole "seesawing" steering input you see in pro racing was really a test to determine how close the tires are to the limit (since race slicks have a more abrupt loss in grip vs slip than street tires)? Or maybe it is more of a "how are my tires wearing" in a scenario where they know there is additional grip...i.e. butt dyno feel for the tire grip given the impulse like inputs?

It's really about maximizing grip. In a perfect world we could drive the limit without moving the wheel but there are so many variables. It's feeling what is going on and staying ahead of the car.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by drob23

I thought the whole "seesawing" steering input you see in pro racing was really a test to determine how close the tires are to the limit (since race slicks have a more abrupt loss in grip vs slip than street tires)? Or maybe it is more of a "how are my tires wearing" in a scenario where they know there is additional grip...i.e. butt dyno feel for the tire grip given the impulse like inputs?

Yeah, you're not going to see "seesawing" occurring when it can upset the chassis or tire contact patch (unless that is the desired outcome as in the case of a Scandinavian flick in rallying or drifting). For the most part the old saying "slow hands equals fast times" applies, and for the times when very rapid steering inputs are needed when grip is available, really good drivers (most do so unconsciously) mange the 3rd derivative (rate of acceleration) of steering wheel inputs. You can rapidly accelerate the velocity of the steering wheel but do so in a very smooth manner just as when you approach the level of steering lock needed you decelerate your input in a smooth manner. The very best drivers do so all the time. They know exactly how to extract the most from the chassis and tire contact patches through weight transfer and slip angle management, and to do that you can't have perturbations in the chassis/tire system preventing maximum levels of grip.

You'll likely see quick wheel movements when the front tires are over the limits and the driver is undoing steering input to regain front traction as one example. Or perhaps in a fast sweeper when the front is over the peak of the tractive force vs slip angle line, one can feel for what level of slip angle up front achieves the desired grip or lack of grip as the case may be.

[1MOREMOD]

My steering movements in that vane are related to slight understeer or oversteer and quick saw fixes it. Take out a little of the steering so front regains full traction or Countersteer for rear over desired slip angle.

[SenorFunkyPants]

If you plotted the absolute 100% fastest way round a track would it not be the case that any coarse sawing steering inputs would vary away from the ideal input?

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you plotted the absolute 100% fastest way round a track would it not be the case that any coarse sawing steering inputs would vary away from the ideal input?

True but we can't be precise to tenths of a mile per hour every foot of the track or fractions of a degree of the wheel.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by drob23

Asking everyone to check their ego at the door can become really hard when your instructor is playing a big part in feeding it. I understand this is a tough balance to strike, since you also want your student to like you (and possibly give you a good review?). When I taught in grad school, it was always tough because the kids I liked and helped with HW would usually not learn things come test time.

I might also appreciate getting access to more resources. It's a little much to ask newbie's to read books about race car driving, on the other hand, it might make sense to provide more resources than simply an "intro packet" telling you what to do before and "you're gonna have a blast". Some groups have fantastic websites with all kinds of material. I think this would be a great resource. I've learned a lot about HPDE's through reading this type of thread and HPDE instructor guide books that are easily available online.

My .02

Great input, thank you.

Uncharacteristically I attended a BMWCCA event for test and tune last year. I was assigned an instructor who had multiple performance cars to included GT3 RS, 458, M5, etc., he was more than familiar with performance driving obviously, and was a superb person as I got to know him through the event.

First outting, first lap I warmed up the tires, gradually started moving 6-7/10ths of my normal driving. He reached out to me and said "I do not know you yet, could you bring up my comfort level more gradually?" It hit me as a rock. Of course I slowed down, shifted a little more slowly, braked a little less agressively and I think we had a great day together.

Two take aways for me: (1) I never thought about how someone sitting on the passenger seat who did not volunteer to be there might feel when I am driving, and this was the point when my thought process started to change about instructing. (2) If I had an ego and was trying to prove how fast I was, I am sure he would have kicked me out of the event immediately. As an instructor, the most important thing I want to observe is an attitude towards learning and humility on track; missing this attribute is a bad start of a long weekend for me.

Also, the best learning tool - an indispensable one for me - has been my data logger. I don't know of a better one frankly. I take inputs from many different people, but the logger tells me the cold hard truth Its purpose is not lap times, but observing and comparing input/output results with real data section by section, feet by feet.

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

My steering movements in that vane are related to slight understeer or oversteer and quick saw fixes it. Take out a little of the steering so front regains full traction or Countersteer for rear over desired slip angle.

Same here. When watching pro videos with a lot of in-cockpit action, we tend to forget that we are not seeing all the inputs; the throttle, brake, vision, etc. The combination of all those inputs do create the smooth outputs; just seeing the steering seesaw action is misleading most of the times

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you plotted the absolute 100% fastest way round a track would it not be the case that any coarse sawing steering inputs would vary away from the ideal input?

A robot could do that but the reason why it is not realistic to not have to make any adjustments is the track, weather, tires, car, and YOU are all never in the exact same condition lap after lap. Is a steering correction required if one of those variables change? Sometimes.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you plotted the absolute 100% fastest way round a track would it not be the case that any coarse sawing steering inputs would vary away from the ideal input?

I wouldn't disagree that there is an optimal way around the track, but it's not clear that there is a unique one, especially when you consider how the condition of the car/tires change depending on how you drive and/or track conditions. Not to mention, you aren't always necessarily at the edge of the friction circle.

Also, once you consider racing, then often times they don't drive the line, since there are other cars out there which need to be passed or prevented from passing.