First track build (e92 M3)

[FrostyAZ]

I am a stubborn BMW fan. Have owned many of their cars and motorcycles so when I finally decided to build a track car, it had to be BMW.

Originally Posted by warp10

Your goal is definitely possible. M3 balance is much better than 911 and motor is better than the caymans. Don't worry you will be good out there.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Balance is good in the e92, but drive a Cayman ..the GT4 is classified a scalpel for a reason. Sharpest and tightest and lightest car I've ever driven close to the limit on a track in stock form. Porsche over engineers the cars for a reason..because they are true track cars built for the street unlike BMW. The 3.8 Carrera S motor is the most reliable motor even more than our S65's. I love my e92 but after going 8/10's in my clients GT4 at Limerock ...I'm sorry but Porsche is calling me. Not saying I'd do a fully built GT4 race car build, just specifying they are worth the $100k for what they offer to enjoy on track and off.

So is the GT4 balance better than the M3? Does the GT4 have enough power or is it boring in the straights?

[roastbeef]

in my experience, when the e9x m3 and the cayman gt4 meet at the track, the "faster" car is going to be heavily dependent on the driver. i love and admire the gt4 (never driven one), i just don't think they are worlds above the m3 as far as performance goes, i think its pretty even.

[warp10]

I agree that the cayman mid engine platform is a much better balanced car than the M3 or 911. But I have driven the whole cayman line up, including the GT4 Clubsport. They are phenomenal track cars but the standard and S are still down on power. The club sport I have had a few hours in and would love to have have one. A P car is in my future at some point as well.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by FrostyAZ

GT4 is a great car. To turn one into a dedicated track car would be pretty expensive, especially given the prices they are currently going for. My goal is to be competitive with the P cars whether Cayman or 911, hopefully my goal is realistic.

I have been to a number of PCA San Diego events which include a time trial at the end of the weekend. As you can imagine there are lots of crazy Porsche builds attending. My car does very well. I always finish in the top 3 cars out of 50+ time trial competitors.

Your car may not be supercharged like mine, but I'm sure you'll end up 300-400 lbs lighter than my car. Me and Joe from Trinity Autosport have been chasing each other's lap times at various tracks. His car is 2850 lbs which is 400 lbs lighter than mine, and he's NA. We're basically within a second of each other at several tracks.

This stuff really comes down to the driver. I don't know anything about your driving experience, but if you take the time to learn or have already spent the time to learn, this amazing build you're putting together will CERTAINLY be more than capable of keeping up with just about any Porsche.

Of course, you'll also need to invest in fast tires. Without the appropriate tires, the best build in the world can't get the desired lap times.

[nicksm3]

Of course with any experienced driver can make make any car shine but .....plain and simple weight of the GT4 is 2955lbs with 385hp, e92 m3 3,700lbs 415hp. Let's just put that into perspective.

[FrostyAZ]

I am intermediate driver. Have been driving on track for 2 years, just DE and time trials. I am ready to start wheel to wheel as soon as my car is done and I get it dialed in. I have never driven on slicks, just NT01 tires so that might take a little time to get used to. If you ever feel like making your way out to AZ, I belong to a track and can take you out as a guest. Would be fun to have another E9X and be able to drive with another competent driver. It's probably a 6 hour drive from San Diego.

Originally Posted by dogbone

I have been to a number of PCA San Diego events which include a time trial at the end of the weekend. As you can imagine there are lots of crazy Porsche builds attending. My car does very well. I always finish in the top 3 cars out of 50+ time trial competitors.

Your car may not be supercharged like mine, but I'm sure you'll end up 300-400 lbs lighter than my car. Me and Joe from Trinity Autosport have been chasing each other's lap times at various tracks. His car is 2850 lbs which is 400 lbs lighter than mine, and he's NA. We're basically within a second of each other at several tracks.

This stuff really comes down to the driver. I don't know anything about your driving experience, but if you take the time to learn or have already spent the time to learn, this amazing build you're putting together will CERTAINLY be more than capable of keeping up with just about any Porsche.

Of course, you'll also need to invest in fast tires. Without the appropriate tires, the best build in the world can't get the desired lap times.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Of course with any experienced driver can make make any car shine but .....plain and simple weight of the GT4 is 2955lbs with 385hp, e92 m3 3,700lbs 415hp. Let's just put that into perspective.

Perhaps you haven't followed all the details of this thread. I am not talking about a stock M3. FrostyAZ's car will be under 2900 lbs with aero. His build is a very high end track build. I think he will stack up quite favorably to a GT4.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by FrostyAZ

I am intermediate driver. Have been driving on track for 2 years, just DE and time trials. I am ready to start wheel to wheel as soon as my car is done and I get it dialed in. I have never driven on slicks, just NT01 tires so that might take a little time to get used to. If you ever feel like making your way out to AZ, I belong to a track and can take you out as a guest. Would be fun to have another E9X and be able to drive with another competent driver. It's probably a 6 hour drive from San Diego.

Your offer is very generous! Sounds like it could be fun!

On the flip side, perhaps we could entice you to come out to Buttonwillow as well. That is an EXCELLENT track to test any car's setup. Lots of challenging course features. And lots of E9x M3 guys have driven it with many car configs, so you can easily use Buttonwillow as a measuring stick.

Have they estimated a completion date for the build?

[FrostyAZ]

I am definetely up for a trip to Buttonwillow. We should try to do both over time. Will probably want to use my home track to get comfortable with the car but I do plan to travel a bit especially since I bought a toy hauler capable of transporting the car. It is not the ideal set up but it will tow car and then enable me to camp at or near the track.

Hoping the car will be done soon, ideally a couple weeks but I don't have a firm completion date yet.

Originally Posted by dogbone

Your offer is very generous! Sounds like it could be fun!

On the flip side, perhaps we could entice you to come out to Buttonwillow as well. That is an EXCELLENT track to test any car's setup. Lots of challenging course features. And lots of E9x M3 guys have driven it with many car configs, so you can easily use Buttonwillow as a measuring stick.

Have they estimated a completion date for the build?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Of course with any experienced driver can make make any car shine but .....plain and simple weight of the GT4 is 2955lbs with 385hp, e92 m3 3,700lbs 415hp. Let's just put that into perspective.

I'm sorry but no. I've weighed my ZCP E92, full tank, 3600 completely stock.

Meanwhile in the real world, a GT4 with tank and ceramics is 3070lb. Likely knocking on 3100 with steels.
Get your E92, add light wheels and a bbk and you'll be awfully close to 3500. Again, my ZCP is 3600 with the heavy ZCP wheels and the heavy stock brakes.
Pull out the rear seats to match the 2 seater Cayman and you're at 3500 max.
I regret not weighing my E92 with track seats, no rear seat, light wheels and the BBK to silence all the naysayers.

I often hear lots of P car love on these forums and don't get it. I've driven several and am still waiting to be impressed. I almost always run with PCA, so I'm also waiting for them to be fast. BMWs are consistently among the fastest cars on track.

I'm also waiting for a GT4 to pose a real threat at the track. I'd be pretty annoyed if my 100k 'track' car is matched by a 6 year old one that can be bought for 30k. And was 75k new. And seats 4 or 5 people.

If I had 100k for a single track car I would, beyond any shadow of doubt, do a full E9X build. It's stupidly fun to drive, sounds like heaven... I just like it.
To paraphrase bigjae, ''if I had 100k I'd build a track M3 and they'd call me the Joker because of the grin i'd have driving it''

I would quickly bet on OP's E92 build to spank almost any Porsche. Once you run with them on track, a 991 GT3 is just a regular car.
Kudos to OP and dogbone for building up the car they like instead of entering the never ending member-measuring contest of 'I have a Porsche'. 'Well good for you, I hope you know how to drive'

It is very likely a Porsche is a better 'mountain road' car or whatever. For the track, you take any run of the mill M3, even ancient ones like E36 M3s and run great times.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For the track, you take any run of the mill M3, even ancient ones like E36 M3s and run great times.

I agree with all you've written. My only problem with the M3 is I can only get 2-3 decent hot laps before power starts dropping significantly (yes, I've upgraded every cooler). That's where the P cars shine - full 30 minutes sessions with no cooling issues whatsoever. Very frustrating!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by okusa

I agree with all you've written. My only problem with the M3 is I can only get 2-3 decent hot laps before power starts dropping significantly (yes, I've upgraded every cooler). That's where the P cars shine - full 30 minutes sessions with no cooling issues whatsoever. Very frustrating!

That sucks to hear and would be a really big problem for me

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by okusa

I agree with all you've written. My only problem with the M3 is I can only get 2-3 decent hot laps before power starts dropping significantly (yes, I've upgraded every cooler). That's where the P cars shine - full 30 minutes sessions with no cooling issues whatsoever. Very frustrating!

I'm with you. Porsche leads on the track for a reason ..time and money spent in all the right areas.

[FrostyAZ]

I have never had an overheating issue. I am upgrading all of the coolers anyway but have never had an issue. My car is a manual, from what I have heard, the DCT seems to be the biggest concern with overheating. Turner is closing out their PWR radiators for super cheap, they are quite a bit larger then OEM, you have to delete the A/C condenser to get it to fit. out of curiosity, which cooler are you running? If your car is DCT, you should consider the do88. I have heard nothing but really positive reviews with their DCT cooler.

Originally Posted by okusa

I agree with all you've written. My only problem with the M3 is I can only get 2-3 decent hot laps before power starts dropping significantly (yes, I've upgraded every cooler). That's where the P cars shine - full 30 minutes sessions with no cooling issues whatsoever. Very frustrating!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by FrostyAZ

I have never had an overheating issue. I am upgrading all of the coolers anyway but have never had an issue. My car is a manual, from what I have heard, the DCT seems to be the biggest concern with overheating. Turner is closing out their PWR radiators for super cheap, they are quite a bit larger then OEM, you have to delete the A/C condenser to get it to fit. out of curiosity, which cooler are you running? If your car is DCT, you should consider the do88. I have heard nothing but really positive reviews with their DCT cooler.

Generally, when someone says they have not overheated an E9x M3, it's because they don't run a grippy enough tire and consequently, they don't push the car hard enough to overheat.

okusa has a very clear story about overheating that I've shared on this forum before. okusa and I were both at Chuckwalla one weekend. He had basically never overheated his car before the Chuckwalla event. Until this event, he had been running Hankook RS3 tires. I gave him a set of my wheels with Hankook TD---a much grippier tire---so he could try them. In his VERY FIRST session on the TD's he overheated his E90 M3. He also easily set a new personal best with those tires. The point here is that he was able to push the car much harder with the TD's and once he did, the car overheated. This is a common story with the E9x M3. Once the tires get more grippy, and you are able to push the car harder, it overheats. Aftermarket coolers have a spotty record of being able to remedy the situation. This is why I went through so much trouble to analyze the do88 DCT cooler's performance (as I noted in my build thread). I had seen so many other reports of very little results. I wanted to be able to quantify what I was getting with the do88. It turns out the do88 does really lower temps further than the stock unit.

With your track build, your car will be MUCH lighter than stock. Also, you are not supercharging, and you have a manual. Perhaps the combo of lighter weight, along with N/A, manual and upgraded coolers, you'll be able to delay the onset of overheating. I hope for your sake it's possible! Many people have been looking for the magic elixir that allows an E9x M3 to run hot lap after hot lap for long periods of time without dropping power or going into limp mode. I haven't seen many reports of success yet. The solution has proven to be elusive....

[FrostyAZ]

I have only been using NT01 tires...Do you run the do88 oil cooler and if so, have you tested it to see if it makes a noticeable difference? I originally had bought a do88 radiator too but when I saw the PWR was much larger, I decided to buy it in the hope that it will keep things cooler. My goal is to be able to run a 30 minute session at ambient temps up to 100. And I am planning to run slicks once I get the car back. We'll see, was sure I would be fine but now a little less sure.

[roastbeef]

i've crept above the line at the track before when ambient temps were somewhat cool at laguna seca, but 1/2 of that track is accelerating uphill. no limp mode. i experienced some slower shifting at auto club, but that was only once towards the end of a session, and no limp mode. i have only run nt01's so far.
it could be that the dct keeps the rpm's higher with the shorter ratios. plus, i think a dct guy might shift higher because of less fear of screwing up and redlining.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by FrostyAZ

I have only been using NT01 tires...Do you run the do88 oil cooler and if so, have you tested it to see if it makes a noticeable difference? I originally had bought a do88 radiator too but when I saw the PWR was much larger, I decided to buy it in the hope that it will keep things cooler. My goal is to be able to run a 30 minute session at ambient temps up to 100. And I am planning to run slicks once I get the car back. We'll see, was sure I would be fine but now a little less sure.

I only have the do88 DCT cooler. The rest of the radiators are stock. I do have a misting system that sprays a fine mist of water on the radiators to help cool them. It requires putting some water in a reservoir prior to each session. I think it's been worth it. But honestly, when pushing the car to it's absolute max, not much helps. And I guess that's fair. BMW did not build an M3 to do what I do with it. And a lot of the engine bay stuff is all stock aside from the supercharger. I give them credit for building a car that's held up so well.

I did a write up on my findings of the do88 DCT cooler on my build thread. Check out post #378:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...158445&page=18

NT01 is only slightly more grip than an RS3. In the world of high grip tires, NT01 falls off the back of the bus. At this point, it's old tire tech. Slicks can range from an endurance slick which can offer good grip while allowing long sessions, to really soft compounds which offer incredible grip, but only allow a couple hot laps. Most people who run slicks tend towards endurance compounds like Pirelli DH and Michelin S9L because at $2000/set, you want to get some life out of them.

I posted the following text in another thread a couple weeks ago, but I'll repeat it again here:

I believe the BFGoodrich R1S offers the best value of any tire currently available. It satisfies a cross-section of requirements better than any other tire I know of:

-Cost: At $1300 for a set from Tirerack, it's competitive or cheaper than Hoosier ($1500) or Hankook TD ($1350) or any slick at $2000. And it's worth noting that it's available and in-stock quite often, whereas other performance tire availability can be spotty.

-Lap Times: The R1S is basically as fast or faster than any non-slick tire including Hoosier A7.

-Number of hot laps in a row: R1S holds up lap after lap after lap without getting destroyed or greasy. TD's need a cool down break between hot laps or you'll destroy them. A7's get greasy after 2 hot laps and you have to exit the track.

-Heat cycles: I get 14-16 heat cycles before one of the tires starts showing a bit of cord. I assemble the remaining uncorded tires into scrub sets and get at least another 5 heat cycles. For such a fast tire, I think this is very good. TD's get more heat cycles but they are slower. A7 gets less heat cycles before cords show.

-Number of fast heat cycles before lap times slow: the first 10 heat cycles are very fast. The fastest lap I ever ran on an R1S was on it's 8th heat cycle. Heat cycles 10-16 are still very fun. No personal bests happening on these heat cycles, but still very fun to drive. Once you're out to 20 heat cycles, they're still fine to drive, but I'm hungering for the high grip again. Honestly, I hate driving a fast tire that has slowed way down due to being heat cycled out. It's annoying. So I wouldn't want a tire that can do 40 heat cycles if the last 20 are crap.

When you look at these different criteria, the R1S holds up very well in all categories--better than any other tire I know of.

[SYT_Shadow]

I haven't tried the R1S but have run the R1. They're a pretty awesome tire. They are super progressive and grippy, easy to catch, etc. They also seem to last a while. I may be losing it, but they seem to last as much as NT01s which are 3 weekends at most.

dogbone, I'm surprised you aren't running the full d088 combo. If anyone can use it, that's you!

[FrostyAZ]

Good to see some data behind the do88 cooler. Their oil cooler is also quite a bit bigger and much better quality then OEM. Might be something to consider. I am trying to do everything I can to keep temps down, ceramic coated headers/X pipe, upgraded coolers and heatshield wherever it makes sense to put it. Trying to keep the engine and driver as cool as possible.

I have been considering the R1 and R1S and was leaning towards R1 since I live in AZ and our temps will start to hover around 100 within a month, I was concerned the R1S might not hold up well. Have you used them in high temp and for longer sessions?

Thanks for the good info.

Originally Posted by dogbone

I only have the do88 DCT cooler. The rest of the radiators are stock. I do have a misting system that sprays a fine mist of water on the radiators to help cool them. It requires putting some water in a reservoir prior to each session. I think it's been worth it. But honestly, when pushing the car to it's absolute max, not much helps. And I guess that's fair. BMW did not build an M3 to do what I do with it. And a lot of the engine bay stuff is all stock aside from the supercharger. I give them credit for building a car that's held up so well.

I did a write up on my findings of the do88 DCT cooler on my build thread. Check out post #378:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...158445&page=18

NT01 is only slightly more grip than an RS3. In the world of high grip tires, NT01 falls off the back of the bus. At this point, it's old tire tech. Slicks can range from an endurance slick which can offer good grip while allowing long sessions, to really soft compounds which offer incredible grip, but only allow a couple hot laps. Most people who run slicks tend towards endurance compounds like Pirelli DH and Michelin S9L because at $2000/set, you want to get some life out of them.

I posted the following text in another thread a couple weeks ago, but I'll repeat it again here:

I believe the BFGoodrich R1S offers the best value of any tire currently available. It satisfies a cross-section of requirements better than any other tire I know of:

-Cost: At $1300 for a set from Tirerack, it's competitive or cheaper than Hoosier ($1500) or Hankook TD ($1350) or any slick at $2000. And it's worth noting that it's available and in-stock quite often, whereas other performance tire availability can be spotty.

-Lap Times: The R1S is basically as fast or faster than any non-slick tire including Hoosier A7.

-Number of hot laps in a row: R1S holds up lap after lap after lap without getting destroyed or greasy. TD's need a cool down break between hot laps or you'll destroy them. A7's get greasy after 2 hot laps and you have to exit the track.

-Heat cycles: I get 14-16 heat cycles before one of the tires starts showing a bit of cord. I assemble the remaining uncorded tires into scrub sets and get at least another 5 heat cycles. For such a fast tire, I think this is very good. TD's get more heat cycles but they are slower. A7 gets less heat cycles before cords show.

-Number of fast heat cycles before lap times slow: the first 10 heat cycles are very fast. The fastest lap I ever ran on an R1S was on it's 8th heat cycle. Heat cycles 10-16 are still very fun. No personal bests happening on these heat cycles, but still very fun to drive. Once you're out to 20 heat cycles, they're still fine to drive, but I'm hungering for the high grip again. Honestly, I hate driving a fast tire that has slowed way down due to being heat cycled out. It's annoying. So I wouldn't want a tire that can do 40 heat cycles if the last 20 are crap.

When you look at these different criteria, the R1S holds up very well in all categories--better than any other tire I know of.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by FrostyAZ

Good to see some data behind the do88 cooler. Their oil cooler is also quite a bit bigger and much better quality then OEM. Might be something to consider. I am trying to do everything I can to keep temps down, ceramic coated headers/X pipe, upgraded coolers and heatshield wherever it makes sense to put it. Trying to keep the engine and driver as cool as possible.

I have been considering the R1 and R1S and was leaning towards R1 since I live in AZ and our temps will start to hover around 100 within a month, I was concerned the R1S might not hold up well. Have you used them in high temp and for longer sessions?

Thanks for the good info.

I'm excited to try the R1 or R1S out also, seems like a good next step.

And good call on ceramic coating the headers!