E92 vs. E46 on track with equal power?

[admranger]

Just get an Ariel Atom and save a lot of grief if you just want a monster fast, light car...or go tube frame.

@d k: impressive start vs. win rate! S2000 is an exceptional chassis.

Right now, the Lotus Evora is intriguing from a dual purpose car standpoint for me b/c of the weight, mid-engine layout, and the reliability of the drivetrain. Of course, that describes a Cayman as well.

Now, as you can see from my pic below, I've tracked both an E46M3 and an E90M3. Much more seat time in the E46. You dance with an E46. You wrestle an E90 (stock-ish form). Suspension design of the E90 is superior, but I'd take a 400hp E46M3 all day long.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by d k

There is a 3rd gen Miata (NC) 2300lbs with 650hp that did a 2:16 on slicks!
Now, you put that car on A052s and he is gonna be 2:19 at best!

What does that tell us?

hehe it tells us that Jenson Little was fricking flying in that thing! And that car didn't have all the crazy exterior mods. It looked super mellow on the surface but was a monster underneath.

Originally Posted by d k

This is one that I'm gonna have to disagree on...

Subarus are pieces of shit.

haha I don't have any partcular love for Subaru. But you gotta admit, when they're setup, they are damn fast.

My garage mate at Super Lap at COTA last year was running two cars at the event. One of them was a Subaru Street Class. He didn't get a full session in without the head gasket going. Even with the car limping around, he got 2nd in Street. He said the car would go sub-2:20 if it was healthy.

Originally Posted by d k

I don't even consider a non reliable build a build.
If it's not reliable, stay home.

I feel bad for the Mitsubishi EVO team that's shown up to Buttonwillow GTA for the last two years and still has not put down a full pace lap. 2019, it suffered a fire on the first hot lap. 2020, it had some steering issue that prevented full pace. The car is supposed to be able to put down at least a 1:40......Was running 10 seconds off pace.....I hear there are many hundreds of thousands of dollars in that build......

I don't hear people placing much emphasis on reliability in time attack, but I think it's important. I guess if you have a huge budget, you just keep fixing things as they break. I don't come to motorsport with that kind of budget.....

[sbo76]

Originally Posted by d k

I distinctly remember a stock E46M with gutted interior, jrzs and slicks and I was in the low 20s at Willow and it felt like I didnt even try hard.

Ever since then I have always thought that one day I will buy one.
Never did, but I have a feeling E46 is one of those chassis that punches above its weight, as they say.


Which tracks do you go to?

Primarily Phoenix (firebird, AMP) and Southern Cal (chuck walla, Sonoma and lacuna Secca). Laguna Secca is on of the courses that does favor the extra HP. Chuck Walla not so much. There is a relatively inexpensive conversion for the e46 to a LSx motor (extra 100 HP and 150 lbs of torque) that I am considering if my motor ever goes. However it comes down to balance again. The guy that sets up my car swears that you can run just as good times with the stock motor if you can drive.

[sbo76]

Originally Posted by admranger

Just get an Ariel Atom and save a lot of grief if you just want a monster fast, light car...or go tube frame.

@d k: impressive start vs. win rate! S2000 is an exceptional chassis.

Right now, the Lotus Evora is intriguing from a dual purpose car standpoint for me b/c of the weight, mid-engine layout, and the reliability of the drivetrain. Of course, that describes a Cayman as well.

Now, as you can see from my pic below, I've tracked both an E46M3 and an E90M3. Much more seat time in the E46. You dance with an E46. You wrestle an E90 (stock-ish form). Suspension design of the E90 is superior, but I'd take a 400hp E46M3 all day long.

I was approaching this as e46 vs e90 - if you are just looking for fast factory five makes a platform called an 818. You can lay down monster times with that car and a donor Subaru wxr parts. Get an LS3 and you will be super competitive! We looked at doing this car with the raptor eco-boost motor a few years back. My god that thing would be a rocket!

[d k]

No. Big Willow.

Originally Posted by okusa

I assume you are referring to Streets and not Big Willow.

[d k]

I was looking at that before deciding on the frs....

Im not convinced that its that good of a chassis and doing a mid engined ls3 orecoboost? Nope

Originally Posted by sbo76

I was approaching this as e46 vs e90 - if you are just looking for fast factory five makes a platform called an 818. You can lay down monster times with that car and a donor Subaru wxr parts. Get an LS3 and you will be super competitive! We looked at doing this car with the raptor eco-boost motor a few years back. My god that thing would be a rocket!

[d k]

The reason those Subarus and Evos blow up is because those chassis are so bad that to get a decent lap, you need 1000hp lol.


Has anyone put an N54 into an E46?

What are the chassis differences between the M and non M chassis?
I understand the suspension is different.
Different how?

Lastly, could the E9x 335 be a good startingpoint?
Cheap and has theN54 already.

Reason for the N54 swap into E46 is that being a bmw engine, I could build it for street, not limited.

Just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by dogbone

hehe it tells us that Jenson Little was fricking flying in that thing! And that car didn't have all the crazy exterior mods. It looked super mellow on the surface but was a monster underneath.



haha I don't have any partcular love for Subaru. But you gotta admit, when they're setup, they are damn fast.

My garage mate at Super Lap at COTA last year was running two cars at the event. One of them was a Subaru Street Class. He didn't get a full session in without the head gasket going. Even with the car limping around, he got 2nd in Street. He said the car would go sub-2:20 if it was healthy.




I feel bad for the Mitsubishi EVO team that's shown up to Buttonwillow GTA for the last two years and still has not put down a full pace lap. 2019, it suffered a fire on the first hot lap. 2020, it had some steering issue that prevented full pace. The car is supposed to be able to put down at least a 1:40......Was running 10 seconds off pace.....I hear there are many hundreds of thousands of dollars in that build......

I don't hear people placing much emphasis on reliability in time attack, but I think it's important. I guess if you have a huge budget, you just keep fixing things as they break. I don't come to motorsport with that kind of budget.....

[d k]

How does the car do at Laguna?

Originally Posted by sbo76

Primarily Phoenix (firebird, AMP) and Southern Cal (chuck walla, Sonoma and lacuna Secca). Laguna Secca is on of the courses that does favor the extra HP. Chuck Walla not so much. There is a relatively inexpensive conversion for the e46 to a LSx motor (extra 100 HP and 150 lbs of torque) that I am considering if my motor ever goes. However it comes down to balance again. The guy that sets up my car swears that you can run just as good times with the stock motor if you can drive.

[d k]

Atoms are pretty expensive, but Radicals have come down in price a lot, so that might be another option.
However, that would just be for training, reflexes, etc.

It wouldnt be allowed for time attack....

Originally Posted by admranger

Just get an Ariel Atom and save a lot of grief if you just want a monster fast, light car...or go tube frame.

@d k: impressive start vs. win rate! S2000 is an exceptional chassis.

Right now, the Lotus Evora is intriguing from a dual purpose car standpoint for me b/c of the weight, mid-engine layout, and the reliability of the drivetrain. Of course, that describes a Cayman as well.

Now, as you can see from my pic below, I've tracked both an E46M3 and an E90M3. Much more seat time in the E46. You dance with an E46. You wrestle an E90 (stock-ish form). Suspension design of the E90 is superior, but I'd take a 400hp E46M3 all day long.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by d k

The reason those Subarus and Evos blow up is because those chassis are so bad that to get a decent lap, you need 1000hp lol.


Has anyone put an N54 into an E46?

What are the chassis differences between the M and non M chassis?
I understand the suspension is different.
Different how?

Lastly, could the E9x 335 be a good startingpoint?
Cheap and has theN54 already.

Reason for the N54 swap into E46 is that being a bmw engine, I could build it for street, not limited.

Just some thoughts.

A forum member—-turb0mik3—has turned a 335 into a full blown crazy car.

You can check it out here: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1328051

[roastbeef]

An e46 is not doing low 1:20's at big willow with basic mods and no aero. It was probably low 1:30's.

[derbo]

Anyone talked about 128i as a base if we are going swaps?

[d k]

It was fully gutted, on slicks, wing and JRZs.

It was definitely below a 25, I want to say 22

Originally Posted by roastbeef

An e46 is not doing low 1:20's at big willow with basic mods and no aero. It was probably low 1:30's.

[roastbeef]

Ok, I didn't mean to start splitting hairs, but it sounded pretty basic when you first described it.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by derbo

Anyone talked about 128i as a base if we are going swaps?

A single turbo 135 could make really good power and be fairly reliable. Will need lots of cooling mods to make it work good for hard track use though. The issue is the 135 isn't that light. I had a 135 that I tracked before my E92 M3 and it weighted 3450, only 100lbs less then my E92 when it was stock.. ~3000lbs would be a reasonable stripped weight. <2900lbs would be a serious build. Not sure how light he's looking to get but ~2900lbs with 600-700whp is doable with an N54 135i.

The 128's are light because of an aluminum block engine, lighter trans and no turbos, intercoolers, piping etc. My 128 weights 3150, so 300lbs less then an equivalent speced 135 - and almost all the weight comes off from the nose, so they handle much better Almost any swap will add weight to a 128 so probably not even advantageous over just doing a 135, unfortunately.

[d k]

No worries.
It was 20 years ago, so things are somewhat faded.

I just remember comparing to what the cup cars were doing at the time and was blown away how close they were.

And there is always the possibility that the car was not stock, since it wasn't my car and I had no way to check or doubt the owner's claim.

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Ok, I didn't mean to start splitting hairs, but it sounded pretty basic when you first described it.

[d k]

I also had a 135 that I foolishly thought I would turn into 1M, but I never really liked the way the car felt and like you said, it was still a heavy pig.

I decided to abort the mission before it ever got started.

Originally Posted by tsk94

A single turbo 135 could make really good power and be fairly reliable. Will need lots of cooling mods to make it work good for hard track use though. The issue is the 135 isn't that light. I had a 135 that I tracked before my E92 M3 and it weighted 3450, only 100lbs less then my E92 when it was stock.. ~3000lbs would be a reasonable stripped weight. <2900lbs would be a serious build. Not sure how light he's looking to get but ~2900lbs with 600-700whp is doable with an N54 135i.

The 128's are light because of an aluminum block engine, lighter trans and no turbos, intercoolers, piping etc. My 128 weights 3150, so 300lbs less then an equivalent speced 135 - and almost all the weight comes off from the nose, so they handle much better Almost any swap will add weight to a 128 so probably not even advantageous over just doing a 135, unfortunately.

[d k]

I still havent found the answer to the question I asked earlier..

Is there a place I can reasearch to find out exactly what the differences of the M cars vs. non M cars have?
Particularly in the suspension?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by d k

I still havent found the answer to the question I asked earlier..

Is there a place I can reasearch to find out exactly what the differences of the M cars vs. non M cars have?
Particularly in the suspension?

RealOEM. Search non-M and M chassis and you can compare part numbers and differences between the two.

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by sbo76

... factory five makes a platform called an 818

I would rather light my money on fire and watch it all burn than build one of those.

Factory five build neat things. Not useful, not engineered, and not well thought out... just neat.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by d k

I still havent found the answer to the question I asked earlier..

Is there a place I can reasearch to find out exactly what the differences of the M cars vs. non M cars have?
Particularly in the suspension?

This thread might help:

https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1079383

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by d k

No worries.
It was 20 years ago, so things are somewhat faded.

I just remember comparing to what the cup cars were doing at the time and was blown away how close they were.

And there is always the possibility that the car was not stock, since it wasn't my car and I had no way to check or doubt the owner's claim.

hehe low 20’s at Big Willow in a BMW......there was NOTHING stock about that car. If the car was only lightly modded, I would more likely believe low 1:30’s.

Here’s what I can tell you about WSIR from my experiences—-I did a 1:25.5 in Jan. 2020 on slick scrubs that were cording. If I was dumb enough to show up there with new slicks, I could definitely go 1:24....maybe high 1:23. Brett Smrz did a 1:25.3 in a highly prepped E36 with S54 that weighed under 2550. I do not know of a faster time than Brett’s in modern times in a BMW of any platform. If someone has gone faster in a BMW, I’d love to hear about it and see video of that little gem of driving.

I’ve watched a 996 Cup Car with a pro driver lap WSIR at 1:26 pace lap after lap. He was practicing for a big upcoming pro race (at some other track). But I haven’t seen a Cup Car of that generation doing low 1:20s.

Charbel Elian’s E36 with S54 with full race build that is super light could probably get close to 1:22 but he hasn’t taken the car there yet since he built it. His car was CRUSHING the lap times at Chuckwalla in Nov. He ran 1:46 going CCW. (I was at the same event and did 1:49—-ah—-momentum tracks and light cars.)