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      01-07-2020, 12:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by New2Roundel View Post
Sorry, we're going to have to disagree. A base F80 vs base e90M is a drivers race. You are definitely confused by torque vs power. The e90M feels much slower (I'm talking acceleration, not lap times), but the reality is that it's simply not much slower. It's far from other worldly. I can't speak to the track side of thing because I haven't been on track with my car---but I have in a F80.

Other worldly is an F82 GTS vs e9xM. Yeah, that will be vastly faster than any stock e9x M3.
We are talking about different things, thanks for the condescension but I'm not confused. I'm talking about which car is overall faster, not which can win a drag race. I have owned cars with both engines, at one point concurrently. Equal drivers an F80 will comfortably outpace an E90 with the same tires. My manual M2C has less power and is detuned compared to every other f8x, it will be a much fairer comparison with my DCT e90 on the track.

To give you an example, a friend with an M4 CS can hit 156 on the back straight at Watkins Glen and he was having to brake early as his brakes were cooked. My stock power E90 would just be doing around 135. That's a huge delta, and that was with cooler ambient temps. Introduce any real heat into the equation and the S65 loses even further.

I'm not saying the E9x is a slow car, it isn't. But where an F80 can play with Shelby GT 350's, Zl1 1LE's etc. and E9X just cant. That puts it at a different level. Throw any type of tuning into the mix and the gap grows even further.
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      01-07-2020, 01:06 PM   #90
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The best and worst thing about a 6mt e9x is the raw noise and drama at low speeds. It feels/sounds faster than it is around town which is good because it gives you an experience without breaking the speed limits. The worst part is if you have to get on it to get in front of people at red lights and intersections you look/sound like an asshole because your tuned car with a custom exhaust is noisy at 7krpm and the gears are so short you can't pull on Karen in her variable transmission'd minivan without mashing the gas and slam shifting the gears! But wait till I hit third Karen, I'll have you for lunch..
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      01-07-2020, 01:34 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I'm not saying the E9x is a slow car, it isn't. But where an F80 can play with Shelby GT 350's, Zl1 1LE's etc. and E9X just cant. That puts it at a different level. Throw any type of tuning into the mix and the gap grows even further.
At the track an E9X can hang with any of those. No stroker needed either.

You don't need that many mods to be able to run a 2:05 at WGI with an E9X. That is much faster than most of the F8Xs, GT350s and ZL1 1LEs you'll even run into
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      01-07-2020, 01:55 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
At the track an E9X can hang with any of those. No stroker needed either.

You don't need that many mods to be able to run a 2:05 at WGI with an E9X. That is much faster than most of the F8Xs, GT350s and ZL1 1LEs you'll even run into
There are a lot of slow drivers in those cars haha. I see them all the time. When I end up behind one of those cars on track it's an interesting sight, because the car can look so nervous and edgy while going so much slower than it is capable of, and even much slower than my measly E90 is capable of. I wonder if it's the stability and traction control systems having an epic battle with the driver.
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      01-07-2020, 02:03 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
We are talking about different things, thanks for the condescension but I'm not confused. I'm talking about which car is overall faster, not which can win a drag race. I have owned cars with both engines, at one point concurrently. Equal drivers an F80 will comfortably outpace an E90 with the same tires. My manual M2C has less power and is detuned compared to every other f8x, it will be a much fairer comparison with my DCT e90 on the track.

To give you an example, a friend with an M4 CS can hit 156 on the back straight at Watkins Glen and he was having to brake early as his brakes were cooked. My stock power E90 would just be doing around 135. That's a huge delta, and that was with cooler ambient temps. Introduce any real heat into the equation and the S65 loses even further.

I'm not saying the E9x is a slow car, it isn't. But where an F80 can play with Shelby GT 350's, Zl1 1LE's etc. and E9X just cant. That puts it at a different level. Throw any type of tuning into the mix and the gap grows even further.
Dude, you're all over the place. Just stop. Are you talking about a base M3/M4 or an M4 CS or a comp car? They're all pretty different. I'm not going to argue your anecdotal experiences as it doesn't mean anything. I've been talking just about acceleration---I thought that was pretty obvious. Your M2C isn't that much different than a base M3/4 either---what, 20 hp difference?

Base for base, the e9x platform just isn't that much slower than the F80 platform, particularly in acceleration. The argument being thrown about on this forum is that the F8x, without any apparent consideration for the submodels, is WAY faster than an e9xM. That's just patently false. A base m3/4 may be faster, but "other league" faster? Nah--it literally makes no logical sense. You have to get up to the CS and GTS before you get a product with enough power and chassis upgrades to effortlessly walk a previous gen car.

I will end with this, I had an F80 comp package car on track at one of the BMW M Track Days events. It was a fantastically impressive package. I really enjoyed my time behind the wheels and marveled at how composed it was in this setting. I couldn't really think of anything off the bat that I'd want to modify to make it better. So I do like the newer cars for what they are. I imagine that from a handling perspective a comp package vs comp package comparo would result in the F8x cars being more composed and easier to drive fast than our cars. I'm looking forward to taking my car on track just to see how it works in comparison.
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      01-07-2020, 02:20 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New2Roundel View Post
Dude, you're all over the place. Just stop. Are you talking about a base M3/M4 or an M4 CS or a comp car? They're all pretty different. I'm not going to argue your anecdotal experiences as it doesn't mean anything. I've been talking just about acceleration---I thought that was pretty obvious. Your M2C isn't that much different than a base M3/4 either---what, 20 hp difference?

Base for base, the e9x platform just isn't that much slower than the F80 platform, particularly in acceleration. The argument being thrown about on this forum is that the F8x, without any apparent consideration for the submodels, is WAY faster than an e9xM. That's just patently false. A base m3/4 may be faster, but "other league" faster? Nah--it literally makes no logical sense. You have to get up to the CS and GTS before you get a product with enough power and chassis upgrades to effortlessly walk a previous gen car.

I will end with this, I had an F80 comp package car on track at one of the BMW M Track Days events. It was a fantastically impressive package. I really enjoyed my time behind the wheels and marveled at how composed it was in this setting. I couldn't really think of anything off the bat that I'd want to modify to make it better. So I do like the newer cars for what they are. I imagine that from a handling perspective a comp package vs comp package comparo would result in the F8x cars being more composed and easier to drive fast than our cars. I'm looking forward to taking my car on track just to see how it works in comparison.
Anecdotal or real world? Whatever you want to call it.

M2C power is very neutered above 5K RPM (Cayman syndrome), it's peak horsepower figure on paper is lower than an E9X. It's a very conservative number in reality so at the wheels they will make around the same.
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      01-07-2020, 03:15 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Anecdotal or real world? Whatever you want to call it.

M2C power is very neutered above 5K RPM (Cayman syndrome), it's peak horsepower figure on paper is lower than an E9X. It's a very conservative number in reality so at the wheels they will make around the same.
fortunately it is the exact same engine, so it's easy to go with a 'CS' tune to keep it conservative and have the same output I have
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      01-07-2020, 09:59 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I'm not saying the E9x is a slow car, it isn't. But where an F80 can play with Shelby GT 350's, Zl1 1LE's etc. and E9X just cant. That puts it at a different level. Throw any type of tuning into the mix and the gap grows even further.
Bring those cars to Suzuka. I am sure E92 will smoke them all with basic mods.

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      01-07-2020, 10:02 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
The best and worst thing about a 6mt e9x is the raw noise and drama at low speeds. It feels/sounds faster than it is around town which is good because it gives you an experience without breaking the speed limits. The worst part is if you have to get on it to get in front of people at red lights and intersections you look/sound like an asshole because your tuned car with a custom exhaust is noisy at 7krpm and the gears are so short you can't pull on Karen in her variable transmission'd minivan without mashing the gas and slam shifting the gears! But wait till I hit third Karen, I'll have you for lunch..
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      01-08-2020, 04:54 AM   #98
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      01-08-2020, 07:47 AM   #99
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The E39 M5 was the first V8 M car.
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      01-08-2020, 08:22 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
At the track an E9X can hang with any of those. No stroker needed either.

You don't need that many mods to be able to run a 2:05 at WGI with an E9X. That is much faster than most of the F8Xs, GT350s and ZL1 1LEs you'll even run into
I think I see the reason for difference in opinion here.

US EDC cars seem to have different dampers vs. Japanese EDC cars. Part number for left strut is 31312284095 for US/EU while Japan gets 31312283917. Seems like we got the Bilstein Damptronic B6 instead of Sachs...
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      01-08-2020, 01:20 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
The E39 M5 was the first V8 M car.
Would have been better to say the only street* M3 with a V8

*I say street because the E46GTR race car had a V8 P65 or whatever
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