My Failed Water/Meth Experiment on ESS VT2 650

[Longboarder]

This is a continuation of my original meth install thread here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868939

I've now done 20+ dyno's in three different sessions at EAS totaling 6 hours (thanks Tom and Steve for all the patience and help with this) with my newly installed Snow Performance progressive water/meth kit. I've tried 4 different nozzles and experimented with every possible setting from the progressive controller, i.e. at what boost level meth flows, to the % of max flow, etc. Nothing is working as good as when the car didn't have the water/meth system.

Just to reiterate, I'm not tuned for water/meth. Just like the idea of the added benefits from IAT cooling and octane bump. Also, the product is working as it should - flow is coming on exactly when we want it to via the controller.

Basically the analysis of the dyno results indicates that once meth is turned on (whether it's at 1psi, 2psi, 4psi, etc), power immediately drops. We can't figure out why even though we have all of the tools to analyze IATs, AFRs, coolant temp, timing, boost, etc. Nothing in the data shows why power should be lower when compared against my results with meth off.

Here's all the dyno's.

First one show the best runs which each nozzle compared with my best run without meth. RunFile37 is no meth, Runfile 54 with 175ml nozzle, Runfile 50 with 225ml nozzle, Runfile 44 with 375ml nozzle, and Runfile 39 with 625ml nozzle.

Second dyno shows results of all pulls with just the 650 kit, no meth.

Third dyno shows results of all pulls with the meth installed + 625ml/min nozzle.

Fourth dyno shows results of all pulls with the meth installed + 375ml/min nozzle.

Fifth dyno shows results of all pulls with the meth installed + 225ml/min nozzle.

Sixth dyno shows results of all pulls with the meth installed + 175ml/min nozzle.

One thing to note as well as we didn't reset adaptations between each nozzle install. Probably should have done that since the car doesn't seem to respond to changes very well. An example of this is when we just unplugged the meth and power dropped significantly (down to around 500).

Will be taking the car to MRF for a breakdown and analysis to see if there is anything else that could be the cause of the power drop. At this point I'm actually hoping for another issue. Regardless, I plan to just unplug the water/meth, reset adaptations, drive around for a couple weeks or so and then re-dyno to see if I can get back to where I should be (upper 570's to low 580).

[Longboarder]

And here are some data logs of the first dyno from above plus the weather conditions. Again, RunFile37 is no meth, Runfile 54 with 175ml nozzle, Runfile 50 with 225ml nozzle, Runfile 44 with 375ml nozzle, and Runfile 39 with 625ml nozzle.

The first dyno shows AFRs

Second dyno shows IAT

Third dyno shows Timing

[m0da]

Thank you for taking the time to dyno (many times over) and post all of this objective information.

This is much more helpful than a "I installed ______ and my car pulls so much harder now", etc.

Please keep us updated on what your next findings are.

[GirlsGarage]

make sure you clean the EIGHT throttle bodies' flaps as I experienced some visible stains on them after using water meth.

might not affect air flow or performance, but its something that shouldn't be there IMO.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by m0da

Thank you for taking the time to dyno (many times over) and post all of this objective information.

This is much more helpful than a "I installed ______ and my car pulls so much harder now", etc.

Please keep us updated on what your next findings are.

Thx yeah funny because the car actually FEELS faster with meth on. Spinning 3rd gear beginning at 8,000 RPMs now. Didn't do that before.

Originally Posted by GirlsGarage

make sure you clean the EIGHT throttle bodies' flaps as I experienced some visible stains on them after using water meth.

might not affect air flow or performance, but its something that shouldn't be there IMO.

Yeah gonna remove everything and inspect, then reset adaptations and run without meth for now.

[M&M]

What percentage of meth are you running?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by M&M

What percentage of meth are you running?

Via the controller I can change the % of meth flow. I tried a lot of different combinations on each nozzle...from changing the start flow and max %. Nothing worked unfortunately.

[M&M]

Sorry my bad! I meant what ratio of meth/water.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by M&M

Sorry my bad! I meant what ratio of meth/water.

Oh ok no worries. Ran Boost Juice (49 meth 51 water) the whole time.

[VCMpower]

Get a tune for it if you want gains of any sort. Otherwise just use it during times of heat soak. Yes flipping nozzles and what not without adaptation times will not give you proper result.

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by GirlsGarage

make sure you clean the EIGHT throttle bodies' flaps as I experienced some visible stains on them after using water meth.

might not affect air flow or performance, but its something that shouldn't be there IMO.

You will see this and it really is irrelevant.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

Get a tune for it if you want gains of any sort. Otherwise just use it during times of heat soak. Yes flipping nozzles and what not without adaptation times will not give you proper result.

I don't want to tune for it, I just wanted to keep the power consistent. I'm getting 20-50 RWHP declines in power which is unacceptable to me, so I'm probably just going to turn it off unless I'm at the track on a hot day.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by m0da

Thank you for taking the time to dyno (many times over) and post all of this objective information.

This is much more helpful than a "I installed ______ and my car pulls so much harder now", etc.

Please keep us updated on what your next findings are.

+1 Thank you for this, good luck.

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I don't want to tune for it, I just wanted to keep the power consistent. I'm getting 20-50 RWHP declines in power which is unacceptable to me, so I'm probably just going to turn it off unless I'm at the track on a hot day.

[Longwong]

Since iat's drop so much, unless you program boost to take advantage of the meth, it will interfere as the low iat will throw off other paremeters and ultimately make less power

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Since iat's drop so much, unless you program boost to take advantage of the meth, it will interfere as the low iat will throw off other paremeters and ultimately make less power

program the boost? please elaborate on this theory...

I will compare files OP, I installed meth for the same reasons.

[m3less]

Longwong is basically saying tune for meth in order to keep consistent power or increase power

[bubu]

Originally Posted by m3less

Longwong is basically saying tune for meth in order to keep consistent power or increase power

...and that pretty much sums up the problem with "custom" tuning the s65 motor, what little tuning talent there is out in the community, it is unwilling to do "custom" for the most part. I can count the # of proven tuners who have half a clue about the ECU on this car on 1 hand. What we have is vendors selling kits with pre-canned tunes.

If we have not seen an independent boosted application tuning market materialize in the past 5 years, I truly doubt we'll see one in the future.

Adam, I suspect that if you want to run meth you are literally going to have to swap kits to get there

[M&M]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Oh ok no worries. Ran Boost Juice (49 meth 51 water) the whole time.

That's not gonna' make any power. You need 80-90% meth, maybe even 100%. I consistently make 15rwhp on my setup meth on vs meth off.

[Soorena]

Too much water.

EDIT: ^^This.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by M&M

That's consistent with my testing with 50% meth mix. Simply not enough octane. I drained the mix on the rollers & put in 100% meth & the advance went up 4 degrees. Switch the meth off & its back to the previous timing. Switch the meth on, BAM 4 degrees advance again. Switch it off just to confirm the results 1 final time & yes it drops again. And the result on the power side was about 15rwhp peak. But on the track was worth a couple mph on the 1/4.

I was running 9 gallons of 91 octane and 6 gallons of 100 octane so it was already at ~ 94-95 octane to begin with.

I don't like the idea of running straight meth as its very corrosive + flammable so if I can't get it to work with Boost Juice then I'm gonna give up. Again, I was just hoping to keep power consistent, not looking to gain anything, but loosing a lot of power was depressing

Originally Posted by Soorena

Too much water.

EDIT: ^^This.

Even running 94-95 octane?

[Longboarder]

Updated data logs AFR's, IAT's and Timing from post#2. Again, RunFile37 is no meth, Runfile 54 with 175ml nozzle, Runfile 50 with 225ml nozzle, Runfile 44 with 375ml nozzle, and Runfile 39 with 625ml nozzle.