Checklist for Supercharger kit

Scharbag · 03-27-2022, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

A replacement to the horrible Bosch air to water intercooler (comes from the 20 year old factory supercharged E55 AMGs) where u will lose over 100 hp on warmer days.

What you recommend Longboarder?

I'm interested in upgrading myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycplumber

I've heard of people running a few gallons of e85 and it helped with cooling.

E85 certainly cant hurt so that's a good start for sure.

But the problem is IATs. On the EAS dyno we did a lot of testing and once the water hits 115F, the tunes start cutting power. And higher IATs cut power dramatically.

Really depends on the kit. OP is using VF and those kits share the same design / intercooling as ESS and Gintani with the 1 gallon air to water with the heat exchanger in the manifold.

Methanol is usually easy and effective however these systems do not take well to methanol for cooling because it is difficult to tap after the manifold (would need to tap velocity stacks) and so tapping before the manifold is a problem because the heat exchanger gets reallh hot from the water since it is ineffective so the cold meth hits the hot metal exchanger in the manifold and just heats it up nullifying the benefits.

The killer chiller is a great idea. It uses the freon in the AC to cool the water in the intercooler down to 40F. The Mercedes shops did this alot with the E55AMGs where this air to water system was designed for. Problem for us is that once u stuff an aftermarket supercharger system in our engine bay, there isnt any room for the killer chiller system. I tried and couldn't make it work. After 12 years on this forum one guy claims to have done it but we still don't have any photos. This is the best option for sure if someone can figure out how to install.

Of course the only system that has had a lot of success with these VF ESS and Gintani systems that use the Bosch air to water system is augmenting that with a large capacity water tank relocated out of the hot engine bay. Very effective but you lose part of your trunk.

Otherwise you could use a different system entirely like Active or the old G Power which use air to air systems which are MUCH better at keeping IATs low.

Or you could ditch the air to water system in VF ESS Gintani and use a non-intercooled manifold and use methanol for cooling because the non-intercooled manifolds have no heat exchanger to block / heat up the meth flow.

I'd ask Properstyle too. That guy runs 14psi of boost and not exactly sure his setup but it works.

How long does it take for the water cooled system to heat soak? Is this something to worry about on the street or primarily on the track?

It depends. The 1 gallon water system recirculates through the engine bay. The engine bay with the hood closed gets over 200F. So at idle for a long time (waiting to run at a drag strip or airstrip), the water heats up dramatically and easy down 100hp. This is why the most effective solution for these situations is a trunk water tank where u can drop some ice in before the run. Or the killer chiller at idle with the A/C on can also cool the water down dramatically to 40F.

If the car is driving then it is getting constant airflow to the little stock heat exchanger. On a cool evening, the water temp can stay below 115F and you have full power. On a hot day there is no chance of keeping the water cool enough so power will be lost. How much depends on how hot the water gets, and that depends on the amount of airflow, and ambient temperature.

At the track there is always a lot of airflow, but there is a lot of heat produced from going WOT constantly and no these systems were never designed to be able to remove all the heat from a track scenario.

At the track the killer chiller wont be able to keep up. The 5 gal water tank will but then u just added 40 more pounds to your track car with the extra 5 gallon tank.

My advice, after years of chasing these issues with the air to water system, save yourself a lot of trouble and go with a supercharger that uses an air to air intercooler and get the biggest and best heat exchanger possible.

Thanks for the feedback.

My car is a Sunday funday car and I live in a place at sea level that does not get too hot. I will keep my eye on IAT this summer and see how it goes.

Cheers,

Longboarder · 03-27-2022, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longboarder

A replacement to the horrible Bosch air to water intercooler (comes from the 20 year old factory supercharged E55 AMGs) where u will lose over 100 hp on warmer days.

What you recommend Longboarder?

I'm interested in upgrading myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycplumber

I've heard of people running a few gallons of e85 and it helped with cooling.

E85 certainly cant hurt so that's a good start for sure.

But the problem is IATs. On the EAS dyno we did a lot of testing and once the water hits 115F, the tunes start cutting power. And higher IATs cut power dramatically.

Really depends on the kit. OP is using VF and those kits share the same design / intercooling as ESS and Gintani with the 1 gallon air to water with the heat exchanger in the manifold.

Methanol is usually easy and effective however these systems do not take well to methanol for cooling because it is difficult to tap after the manifold (would need to tap velocity stacks) and so tapping before the manifold is a problem because the heat exchanger gets reallh hot from the water since it is ineffective so the cold meth hits the hot metal exchanger in the manifold and just heats it up nullifying the benefits.

The killer chiller is a great idea. It uses the freon in the AC to cool the water in the intercooler down to 40F. The Mercedes shops did this alot with the E55AMGs where this air to water system was designed for. Problem for us is that once u stuff an aftermarket supercharger system in our engine bay, there isnt any room for the killer chiller system. I tried and couldn't make it work. After 12 years on this forum one guy claims to have done it but we still don't have any photos. This is the best option for sure if someone can figure out how to install.

Of course the only system that has had a lot of success with these VF ESS and Gintani systems that use the Bosch air to water system is augmenting that with a large capacity water tank relocated out of the hot engine bay. Very effective but you lose part of your trunk.

Otherwise you could use a different system entirely like Active or the old G Power which use air to air systems which are MUCH better at keeping IATs low.

Or you could ditch the air to water system in VF ESS Gintani and use a non-intercooled manifold and use methanol for cooling because the non-intercooled manifolds have no heat exchanger to block / heat up the meth flow.

I'd ask Properstyle too. That guy runs 14psi of boost and not exactly sure his setup but it works.

How long does it take for the water cooled system to heat soak? Is this something to worry about on the street or primarily on the track?

It depends. The 1 gallon water system recirculates through the engine bay. The engine bay with the hood closed gets over 200F. So at idle for a long time (waiting to run at a drag strip or airstrip), the water heats up dramatically and easy down 100hp. This is why the most effective solution for these situations is a trunk water tank where u can drop some ice in before the run. Or the killer chiller at idle with the A/C on can also cool the water down dramatically to 40F.

If the car is driving then it is getting constant airflow to the little stock heat exchanger. On a cool evening, the water temp can stay below 115F and you have full power. On a hot day there is no chance of keeping the water cool enough so power will be lost. How much depends on how hot the water gets, and that depends on the amount of airflow, and ambient temperature.

At the track there is always a lot of airflow, but there is a lot of heat produced from going WOT constantly and no these systems were never designed to be able to remove all the heat from a track scenario.

At the track the killer chiller wont be able to keep up. The 5 gal water tank will but then u just added 40 more pounds to your track car with the extra 5 gallon tank.

My advice, after years of chasing these issues with the air to water system, save yourself a lot of trouble and go with a supercharger that uses an air to air intercooler and get the biggest and best heat exchanger possible.

Thanks for the feedback.

My car is a Sunday funday car and I live in a place at sea level that does not get too hot. I will keep my eye on IAT this summer and see how it goes.

Cheers,

Then you are probably fine with the standard kit. Sounds like you are not in a situation where you are stopping for a long period of time. That's where the water temps increase dramatically since there is no airflow and its just recirculating through the very hot engine bay.

In your case you are driving and therefore getting constant airflow but still in summertime you will still overtax the system and feel the 50+ hp loss that will happen on a warm day. The system does fine at nighttime.

RM3NIAN · 03-27-2022, 07:27 PM

Does anyone recommend a specific type of oil cooler besides Do88? Seems like the consensus is that's the best one.

Is it worth upgrading the other cooling components?

nycplumber · 03-27-2022, 08:17 PM

I wouldn't upgrade anything else. I have heard do88 has better fitment than CSF when it comes to SC cars.

Scharbag · 03-28-2022, 08:31 AM

@Longboarder went for a long rip yesterday. No hard driving and IATs were less than 30C as it was only 14C outside. I see what you mean about stopping though as I got groceries and when I got back to the car, the IAT was 39C 😯

By the time I got home, which includes about 5KM of highway driving, IAT was down to 31C. Certainly does show that heat soak is very real when there is no airflow.

Oil temps the whole time were under 100C.

But I do love how this thing just wants to pull. SC is the best mod I have done for sure.

Longboarder · 03-28-2022, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharbag

@Longboarder went for a long rip yesterday. No hard driving and IATs were less than 30C as it was only 14C outside. I see what you mean about stopping though as I got groceries and when I got back to the car, the IAT was 39C 😯

By the time I got home, which includes about 5KM of highway driving, IAT was down to 31C. Certainly does show that heat soak is very real when there is no airflow.

Oil temps the whole time were under 100C.

But I do love how this thing just wants to pull. SC is the best mod I have done for sure.

Thx the data. 14c is great ambient temps. Def making full power with proper airflow although traction in lower gears might be hard to come by. That's the big trade off. Higher temps + sun will heat up the road and tires and provide better traction/grip insofar as tire pressures are 30psi or under.

Would be great if you can also post when temps warm up. The threshold for pulling timing on the ess650 and ess625 tunes was right around when the water temps and IATs were 46c as tested at EAS on their car and mine.

RM3NIAN · 05-17-2022, 10:45 PM

Is it recommended to swap out ignition coils also? Especially since I’ll be replacing the spark plugs

Melbourn3 · 05-18-2022, 01:40 AM

I did plugs (with the kit), FBV, valve covers gaskets , front timing cover gaskets, slon vanos covers, spark plug tubes, you will love the SC aper. I can almost guarantee it LOL.

CamasM3e93 · 05-18-2022, 08:01 AM

If you are doing your driving in Victoria and BC - you don't need to spend the $$$ on additional cooling. You will get a little better performance with those efforts but it's a nice to have and not a need to have. IT's also something you can return to without removing the SC plenum.

Agree with others - belts, valve cover gaskets, timing cover gaskets, spark plugs, fuel breather valve, pulleys. If you are doing valve cover gaskets, there is a nice DIY posted on it in the forum and you want to also do the gasket and o-ring for each oil separator. I just did my second install and did all of these, plus added test pipes. On the drive belt side, I replaced the spring for the tensioner pulley. The spring can wear out and still be fine in NA operation but with adding a SC you can get belt slippage and lose performance - so updating that spring is important. I was at 100k miles and also did water pump, thermostat, the two main coolant hoses, the radiator to reservoir vent hose, and of course a coolant flush.

Enjoy the work, doing it yourself can generate a lot of pride and there's no better way to know the car.

RM3NIAN · 05-19-2022, 08:32 AM

Is a DCT cooler/power steering necessary or would that be overkill for street driving? Read that the DCTs run hotter than manual and I live in a fairly humid and hot climate

MP0W3RD · 05-19-2022, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM3NIAN

Is a DCT cooler/power steering necessary or would that be overkill for street driving? Read that the DCTs run hotter than manual and I live in a fairly humid and hot climate

I got the DCT do88 cooler strictly for track use.

If you intend to only street drive it is overkill.

CamasM3e93 · 05-21-2022, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM3NIAN

Is a DCT cooler/power steering necessary or would that be overkill for street driving? Read that the DCTs run hotter than manual and I live in a fairly humid and hot climate

It'd be overkill for street driving, especially if you live on Vancouver Island. I tracked my dct the day after we had the 115 F weather last year- track temps were HOT and the day was in the low 90s. This is in a heavier e93. No issues with overheating oil, coolant, dct. I did have power steering fluid seep out of the reservoir but I'm told this is common in the model and long term has been of no consequence.

I'm in SW Washington so a little warmer here and I daily drive a Harrop supercharged e90. The only cooling mod I've done which was recently is a csf radiator and my IATs are down 10F which is worth a few horsepower. But the car is fine as a daily stock.

Scharbag · 05-21-2022, 07:33 PM

I will say that heat soak at the grocery store is a real thing. Came back to a car with 55C IAT

:

Cooled down pretty fast once I drove a bit.

03-27-2022, 07:27 PM	#25
RM3NIAN Private First Class 29 Rep 156 Posts Drives: E92 AW M3 Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Washington DC iTrader: (2)	Does anyone recommend a specific type of oil cooler besides Do88? Seems like the consensus is that's the best one. Is it worth upgrading the other cooling components? __________________ AW E92 M3 \| Karbonius Carbon Fiber Intake l Remus Race Exhaust /w Fabspeed Xpipe \| TTV Lightweight Flywheel \|
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03-27-2022, 08:17 PM	#26
nycplumber Major 686 Rep 1,230 Posts Drives: slow Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: nyc iTrader: (0)	I wouldn't upgrade anything else. I have heard do88 has better fitment than CSF when it comes to SC cars.
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03-28-2022, 08:31 AM	#27
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	@Longboarder went for a long rip yesterday. No hard driving and IATs were less than 30C as it was only 14C outside. I see what you mean about stopping though as I got groceries and when I got back to the car, the IAT was 39C 😯 By the time I got home, which includes about 5KM of highway driving, IAT was down to 31C. Certainly does show that heat soak is very real when there is no airflow. Oil temps the whole time were under 100C. But I do love how this thing just wants to pull. SC is the best mod I have done for sure. __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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05-17-2022, 10:45 PM	#29
RM3NIAN Private First Class 29 Rep 156 Posts Drives: E92 AW M3 Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Washington DC iTrader: (2)	Is it recommended to swap out ignition coils also? Especially since I’ll be replacing the spark plugs
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05-18-2022, 01:40 AM	#30
Melbourn3 First Lieutenant 342 Rep 387 Posts Drives: E90 M3 ZCP STRIPPER Join Date: May 2020 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (3)	I did plugs (with the kit), FBV, valve covers gaskets , front timing cover gaskets, slon vanos covers, spark plug tubes, you will love the SC aper. I can almost guarantee it LOL.
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05-18-2022, 08:01 AM	#31
CamasM3e93 Friends don't let friends ESS 3152 Rep 871 Posts Drives: '11 Lemans Blue 6mt Harrop e90 Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: Camas, WA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 E90 M3 [9.00] 2003 Porsche 911 Turbo [9.75] 2019 BMW X5 xDrive40i [0.00] 2013 Mercedes E550 ... [0.00]	If you are doing your driving in Victoria and BC - you don't need to spend the $$$ on additional cooling. You will get a little better performance with those efforts but it's a nice to have and not a need to have. IT's also something you can return to without removing the SC plenum. Agree with others - belts, valve cover gaskets, timing cover gaskets, spark plugs, fuel breather valve, pulleys. If you are doing valve cover gaskets, there is a nice DIY posted on it in the forum and you want to also do the gasket and o-ring for each oil separator. I just did my second install and did all of these, plus added test pipes. On the drive belt side, I replaced the spring for the tensioner pulley. The spring can wear out and still be fine in NA operation but with adding a SC you can get belt slippage and lose performance - so updating that spring is important. I was at 100k miles and also did water pump, thermostat, the two main coolant hoses, the radiator to reservoir vent hose, and of course a coolant flush. Enjoy the work, doing it yourself can generate a lot of pride and there's no better way to know the car.
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05-19-2022, 08:32 AM	#32
RM3NIAN Private First Class 29 Rep 156 Posts Drives: E92 AW M3 Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Washington DC iTrader: (2)	Is a DCT cooler/power steering necessary or would that be overkill for street driving? Read that the DCTs run hotter than manual and I live in a fairly humid and hot climate __________________ AW E92 M3 \| Karbonius Carbon Fiber Intake l Remus Race Exhaust /w Fabspeed Xpipe \| TTV Lightweight Flywheel \|
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05-21-2022, 07:33 PM	#35
Scharbag Colonel 2621 Rep 2,138 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Victoria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E92 M3 [0.00]	I will say that heat soak at the grocery store is a real thing. Came back to a car with 55C IAT : Cooled down pretty fast once I drove a bit. __________________ 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies...
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