Can the M3 slip with DSC set to "ON"?

cacofonix · 10-18-2012, 11:27 PM

Hello Folks,

Just curious - coming home today from work, I was talking a few turns at a reasonably high speed and was quite thrilled and nervous at the same time. I'm always having DSC to "ON" - can the wheels slip in this situation? Or can I push the car without any worries of slippage and trust DSC to apply brakes and reduce power in all scenarios?

I know that the manual says "Even with DSC switched ON, you can't repeal the laws of physics" or something like that

Thanks!

-- cacofonix!

EDIT: Just want to clarify that this question does not mean "what if lose control of the car, or what if I drive like a crazy person" - just want to know that if I am taking a controlled turn at a high speed, will the tires slip when DSC is ON.

mlhj83 · 10-18-2012, 11:51 PM

Sorry, from the way you describe things, it sounds like you are an inexperienced driver, regardless to the number of years you have had your licence. Please head to a track or undergo some driver training first before something nasty happens. Like any other safety system, DSC has its limits and can be overcome.

MStar · 10-19-2012, 12:01 AM

Here we go.

Everytime there is a DSC thread..the knee-jerk responses.."get driver training, go to the track, you're inexperienced".. blah blah.

OP the DSC intrudes and cuts power rather abruptly as soon as certain steering and suspension angles/yaw rates and other thresholds are exceeded...the MDM is much less intrusive and the Euro MDM is even less. All of these modes however will eventually intervene before you break loose completely. You still have to have to manage the car as the driver..these modes only alert and cut power. Hope this helps

mlhj83 · 10-19-2012, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yolkster

Here we go.

Everytime there is a DSC thread..the knee-jerk responses.."get driver training, go to the track, you're inexperienced".. blah blah.

OP the DSC intrudes and cuts power rather abruptly as soon as certain steering and suspension angles/yaw rates and other thresholds are exceeded...the MDM is much less intrusive and the Euro MDM is even less. All of these modes however will eventually intervene before you break loose completely. Hope this helps

I'm sorry, I'm going to be blunt as this concerns safety. What you have said is only partially correct, no amount of DSC or MDM will save you if you are travelling too fast, like entering a corner too fast or applying too much throttle whilst in a corner on a very slippery surface. Like the handbook says, the laws of physics cannot be broken. Hence, my advice on track and driver training, as you can then understand the benefits and limitations of DSC and MDM, and be a safer and more efficient driver as a result.

MStar · 10-19-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlhj83

I'm sorry, I'm going to be blunt as this concerns safety. What you have said is only partially correct, no amount of DSC or MDM will save you if you are travelling too fast, like entering a corner too fast or applying too much throttle whilst in a corner on a very slippery surface. Like the handbook says, the laws of physics cannot be broken.

And as I said these modes only alert and the "driver" must ultimately manage the car..while I agree the track is a good place to the test the limits of the car in a safe environment..its not a pre-requiste to common sense and driving skills no matter where you drive.

JHFW89225 · 10-19-2012, 12:13 AM

Even with DSC fully on, it is still possible to put the car in a spin. However, that is unlikely to happen because intervention will save you UNLESS, you are breaking the laws of physics aka. doing something ridiculously stupid.

Have fun with your car and stay out of trouble!

ES_TRADER · 10-19-2012, 12:15 AM

I was able to chirp the tires with dsc ON

mlhj83 · 10-19-2012, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yolkster

And as I said these modes only alert and the "driver" must ultimately manage the car..while I agree the track is a good place to the test the limits of the car in a safe environment..its not a pre-requiste to common sense and driving skills no matter where you drive.

Yes, the driver must manage the car and I do not disagree with that. Of course track driving isn't a pre-requisite, but from the way OP described taking high speed corners with a car that he has only recently taken delivery of, and is asking whether DSC is completely reliable for one's safety, this is why I suggested track and driver training.

MStar · 10-19-2012, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlhj83

Yes, the driver must manage the car and I do not disagree with that. Of course track driving isn't a pre-requisite, but from the way OP described taking high speed corners with a car that he has only recently taken delivery of, and is asking whether DSC is completely reliable for ones safety, this is why I suggested track and driver training.

Fair enough.

luis_m3 · 10-19-2012, 12:40 AM

Not even MDM can defy physics...

mlhj83 · 10-19-2012, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luis_m3

Not even MDM can defy physics...

Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

jphughan · 10-19-2012, 07:48 AM

As others have mentioned OP, it sounds like you're asking whether you can count on DSC to let you be a leadfoot hooligan without fear that something bad will happen. You can't; tires can slip and the car can slide even with DSC on, especially in the rain -- and in any case you've got completely the wrong perspective on DSC anyway. DSC is designed primarily to help the car recover in an unexpected circumstance, such as slipping in wet weather because it was WET, not because it was wet AND you decided you could disregard that fact and drive as you please anyway just because DSC was on.

You'll get much more enjoyment out of the car and driving in general (not to mention be safer) if you get some driver training -- plus the driver training experience itself is a lot of fun. I use Euro MDM even on the track as sort of a teaching tool and last resort safety net. Euro MDM is lenient enough that it seems to get in the way only when I've messed up, so I like knowing that it's there and will reel me back if my current technique through a given area is incorrect or too aggressive -- but if I feel it intervene I make a mental note to adjust my technique there. I don't go out thinking that MDM being on absolves me of any responsibility to drive somewhat well or even that it's guaranteed to save me if I really screw the pooch somewhere.

Foodle · 10-19-2012, 08:21 AM

DSC only works if the car has >91 octane gas in it

Seriously, DSC is only a driver aid, not some magic technology that will always keep you safe. It will not save you from boneheaded driving, and in normal driving on public streets, it should only activate in the case of an unexpected emergency (e.g., black ice during the winter, not that you get that in the Bay Area). If you drive like a maniac around Palo Alto, DSC on or off, you're likely to mow down a dozen kids of Internet millionaires, so be safe out there.

[for anyone confused, see: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759843]

ndj · 10-19-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foodle

If you drive like a maniac around Palo Alto, DSC on or off, you're likely to mow down a dozen kids of Internet millionaires, so be safe out there.

gblansten · 10-19-2012, 10:57 AM

Physics gonna be physics.

Foodle · 10-19-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cacofonix

if I am taking a controlled turn at a high speed, ... [can] the tires slip when DSC is ON?

Yes

The questions you're asking genuinely make me fear for your life and for the lives of the people around you. Please be safe. You have a nice new toy, but a foolish mistake in a 414hp 3700lbs car can lead to a tragedy that you can never undo.

jmgM3 · 10-19-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlhj83

Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

Ohhh... that track looks fabulous!

Talk2meg00se · 10-19-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmgM3

Ohhh... that track looks fabulous!

Yeah it does - beautiful!

bnombe · 10-19-2012, 11:26 AM

All the discussions / debate about OP's alleged perception on DSC and the suggestion to take performance driving are all good. People just sharing opinions mostly with caution for safety and preventing unnecessary tragedy.

One thing interesting that OP left out quite vaguely is just how fast the speed was. Anyway, it makes no difference to the general feedback he's looking for I guess.

Rain season has started in my area and yeah I can totally feel the differential doing its work when I am pulling out of driveway turning on to the road even at low speed. I still have full DSC on all the time since picking my car up < 3 months ago. It's still the driver's job to modulate the basic input: throttle, clutch, brakes and steering angle.

ChiTownM · 10-19-2012, 11:27 AM

I just did the M Performance 2 day school and ended up in the grass with the M5 and MDM, monster turbo torque but it was fun though! Everybody commenting that DSC can not defy the laws of physics is absolutely correct and the driver has the ultimate responsibility for their ultimate driving machine.........

NoM3ForMe · 10-19-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlhj83

Correct. Here is a video of mine on a wet track day for anyone who is interested in getting an idea of how much slip MDM allows in the wet. Fast forward to 4.50 onwards, which is when the track gets wet and rains heavily for the rest of the video.

Nice video. Was that a Noble in front of you at the beginning? I couldn't tell...

TVMA Doc · 10-19-2012, 01:08 PM

Yes, the DSC is going to react to the wheels slipping, not scan the road ahead and keep them from slipping. If you take a turn at too high a speed, hit a slick patch, etc. you will slip/drift before the DSC reduces power to the affected wheel to try to reduce the chance of a spin.

I saw a recent test that stated that DSC/traction control systems currently in use can reduce the chance of a spin out during radical emergency maneuvers by about 2/3rds. You might note that it is NOT 100%.

10-18-2012, 11:27 PM	#1
cacofonix Private First Class 32 Rep 114 Posts Drives: 2013 Melbourne Red M3 E92 ZCP Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	Can the M3 slip with DSC set to "ON"? Hello Folks, Just curious - coming home today from work, I was talking a few turns at a reasonably high speed and was quite thrilled and nervous at the same time. I'm always having DSC to "ON" - can the wheels slip in this situation? Or can I push the car without any worries of slippage and trust DSC to apply brakes and reduce power in all scenarios? I know that the manual says "Even with DSC switched ON, you can't repeal the laws of physics" or something like that Thanks! -- cacofonix! EDIT: Just want to clarify that this question does not mean "what if lose control of the car, or what if I drive like a crazy person" - just want to know that if I am taking a controlled turn at a high speed, will the tires slip when DSC is ON. Last edited by cacofonix; 10-19-2012 at 12:02 AM..
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10-18-2012, 11:51 PM	#2
mlhj83 Scythe-Meister 90 Rep 1,053 Posts Drives: '11 E92 M3 ZCP \| F80 M3 CS Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: London iTrader: (0)	Sorry, from the way you describe things, it sounds like you are an inexperienced driver, regardless to the number of years you have had your licence. Please head to a track or undergo some driver training first before something nasty happens. Like any other safety system, DSC has its limits and can be overcome.
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10-19-2012, 12:01 AM	#3
MStar Banned 6 Rep 290 Posts Drives: e92 M3 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Here and there iTrader: (0)	Here we go. Everytime there is a DSC thread..the knee-jerk responses.."get driver training, go to the track, you're inexperienced".. blah blah. OP the DSC intrudes and cuts power rather abruptly as soon as certain steering and suspension angles/yaw rates and other thresholds are exceeded...the MDM is much less intrusive and the Euro MDM is even less. All of these modes however will eventually intervene before you break loose completely. You still have to have to manage the car as the driver..these modes only alert and cut power. Hope this helps
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10-19-2012, 12:13 AM	#6
JHFW89225 Major 174 Rep 1,251 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: HK/Vancouver iTrader: (6) Garage List 2009 BMW M3 [0.00] 2008 335i [0.00]	Even with DSC fully on, it is still possible to put the car in a spin. However, that is unlikely to happen because intervention will save you UNLESS, you are breaking the laws of physics aka. doing something ridiculously stupid. Have fun with your car and stay out of trouble! __________________ 2013 Scion FR-S 2009 BMW E92 M3 2008 BMW E90 335i 2005 BMW X3 3.0i
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10-19-2012, 12:15 AM	#7
ES_TRADER Colonel 344 Rep 2,928 Posts Drives: 328i, 335i, M3, 535i, X5, 36M Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: OC iTrader: (3) Garage List 2014 Ford Raptor [0.00] 2012 328i E92 [10.00] 2013 X5 [0.00] 2013 335i F30 [8.00] 1990 Toyota Previa [0.00] 1997 E36 M3 [10.00] 2011 E92 M3 [0.00] 2011 535i [0.00]	I was able to chirp the tires with dsc ON
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10-19-2012, 12:40 AM	#10
luis_m3 Low Pro... 35 Rep 1,067 Posts Drives: 2013 E92 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Denver iTrader: (0)	Not even MDM can defy physics...
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10-19-2012, 07:48 AM	#12
jphughan Brigadier General 594 Rep 4,488 Posts Drives: '16 Cayman GT4 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (0)	As others have mentioned OP, it sounds like you're asking whether you can count on DSC to let you be a leadfoot hooligan without fear that something bad will happen. You can't; tires can slip and the car can slide even with DSC on, especially in the rain -- and in any case you've got completely the wrong perspective on DSC anyway. DSC is designed primarily to help the car recover in an unexpected circumstance, such as slipping in wet weather because it was WET, not because it was wet AND you decided you could disregard that fact and drive as you please anyway just because DSC was on. You'll get much more enjoyment out of the car and driving in general (not to mention be safer) if you get some driver training -- plus the driver training experience itself is a lot of fun. I use Euro MDM even on the track as sort of a teaching tool and last resort safety net. Euro MDM is lenient enough that it seems to get in the way only when I've messed up, so I like knowing that it's there and will reel me back if my current technique through a given area is incorrect or too aggressive -- but if I feel it intervene I make a mental note to adjust my technique there. I don't go out thinking that MDM being on absolves me of any responsibility to drive somewhat well or even that it's guaranteed to save me if I really screw the pooch somewhere. __________________ '16 Cayman GT4 (delivery pics, comparison to E92 M3 write-up) Gone but not forgotten: '11.75 M3 E92 Le Mans \| Black Nov w/ Alum \| 6MT (owned 5/2011 - 11/2015) Last edited by jphughan; 10-19-2012 at 09:07 AM..
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10-19-2012, 08:21 AM	#13
Foodle Captain 26 Rep 770 Posts Drives: 2011.75 E90 M3 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	DSC only works if the car has >91 octane gas in it Seriously, DSC is only a driver aid, not some magic technology that will always keep you safe. It will not save you from boneheaded driving, and in normal driving on public streets, it should only activate in the case of an unexpected emergency (e.g., black ice during the winter, not that you get that in the Bay Area). If you drive like a maniac around Palo Alto, DSC on or off, you're likely to mow down a dozen kids of Internet millionaires, so be safe out there. [for anyone confused, see: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759843] Last edited by Foodle; 10-19-2012 at 08:33 AM..
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10-19-2012, 10:57 AM	#15
gblansten Brigadier General 1967 Rep 4,214 Posts Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Thick ascending limb iTrader: (0)	Physics gonna be physics.
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10-19-2012, 11:26 AM	#19
bnombe Second Lieutenant 5 Rep 234 Posts Drives: '12 E92M3 6MT/ZCP/JetBlkFoxRed Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC iTrader: (0)	All the discussions / debate about OP's alleged perception on DSC and the suggestion to take performance driving are all good. People just sharing opinions mostly with caution for safety and preventing unnecessary tragedy. One thing interesting that OP left out quite vaguely is just how fast the speed was. Anyway, it makes no difference to the general feedback he's looking for I guess. Rain season has started in my area and yeah I can totally feel the differential doing its work when I am pulling out of driveway turning on to the road even at low speed. I still have full DSC on all the time since picking my car up < 3 months ago. It's still the driver's job to modulate the basic input: throttle, clutch, brakes and steering angle. __________________ My alter egos: Photography Æterna /// bnombe blog - driving, autoxing, virtual racing, riding /// on Twitter
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10-19-2012, 11:27 AM	#20
ChiTownM Lieutenant Colonel 1050 Rep 1,537 Posts Drives: M and i BMWs Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	I just did the M Performance 2 day school and ended up in the grass with the M5 and MDM, monster turbo torque but it was fun though! Everybody commenting that DSC can not defy the laws of physics is absolutely correct and the driver has the ultimate responsibility for their ultimate driving machine.........
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10-19-2012, 01:08 PM	#22
TVMA Doc Captain 56 Rep 868 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 M3, Jerez Black Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SF Bay iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 Totyota Highla ... [0.00] 2003 Honda S2000 [0.00] 2011 BMW E90 M3 [0.00]	Yes, the DSC is going to react to the wheels slipping, not scan the road ahead and keep them from slipping. If you take a turn at too high a speed, hit a slick patch, etc. you will slip/drift before the DSC reduces power to the affected wheel to try to reduce the chance of a spin. I saw a recent test that stated that DSC/traction control systems currently in use can reduce the chance of a spin out during radical emergency maneuvers by about 2/3rds. You might note that it is NOT 100%.
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