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04-19-2013, 10:21 AM | #133 |
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I have pointed out what I think is the issue with the S65 "bearings" in a few threads now, but unfortunately someone at M3 post deleted posts as the discussions continued.
There is no major bearing issue with the S65. What the S65 has is oil clearances on the Main and Rod bearings that are in my opinion way too tight. For most engines there will most likely never be an issue, but, with clearances of around 0.001 there is not much room for error on assembly/during machining of the main bearing bores in the block. Basically what I am saying is that on an engine where the alignment of the main bearing bores is out even slightly or a rod has a big end that is even minutely oval shaped (either from manufacturing or by being stretched from an over-rev), there is no room for error at all. If the engine had say 0.002 which is a number that I feel should be a minimum, or even 0.0025 which the number I would like to see (TWS 10W60 is ideal to take advantage of this larger clearance since the viscosity of 60 at operating temp would lend you to believe it could handle a large oil clearance and oil pressure should not suffer) issues with the S65 main and rod "bearings" would be non existent. So to all of you folks that think that the S65 has a rod bearing issue, that is not in any way shape of form the case, the S65 has a oil clearance issue and unless that is addressed no bearing you put into this engine will solve the problem unless the machine work is done to set the clearances to an acceptable number!
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04-19-2013, 10:35 AM | #134 | |
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04-24-2013, 09:36 PM | #135 | ||
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Your new engine may be fine and you may never have any trouble..... Only time will tell. If you want to see how the new engine is doing, take oil samples at every oil change and if there is a clearance issue, bearing material will show up on the UOA! One thing of note to everyone, DO NOT, under any circumstances, put any excessive load on the engine until the engine oil is at operating temperature. With only about 0.001" of oil clearance and 10w60 in the crankcase, lubrication is going to be compromised until it is at operating temperature! |
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04-25-2013, 11:32 AM | #136 | |
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I know you are probably under warranty, but may I ask how you feel about running other oil weights? Not to start an oil thread or anything, but would love to hear your opinion. Thanks.
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04-27-2013, 01:29 PM | #137 | |
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04-27-2013, 05:54 PM | #138 |
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Thx Jamie.
How low a load do you keep. I winter drive mine so I let it warm a bit but not for 10 min then I drive it. I certainly don't drive it hard but it is prob normal acceleration. Any way you can quantify things a bit? |
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04-27-2013, 06:45 PM | #139 | |
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04-27-2013, 08:22 PM | #140 | |
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But given all these issues, surely BMW should build in some tolerance in this area given after all everyone one is human and can overlook this unintentionally.
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04-27-2013, 11:55 PM | #141 |
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I sometimes wonder if the BMW engine was really designed with a thinner grade oil from the start with the tight tolerance that BMRLVR pointed out. Then another BMW department decided to market and use the 10-60w for the prolonged 15k oil change interval. Would really like to know about the use of thinner oil, especially for some of us that change the oil at 5k or 7.5k.
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04-28-2013, 12:01 AM | #142 |
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05-02-2013, 10:27 AM | #143 | ||
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05-02-2013, 11:44 AM | #144 | |
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05-02-2013, 11:51 AM | #145 | |
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Thanks. |
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05-02-2013, 04:51 PM | #147 | ||
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05-02-2013, 08:17 PM | #148 | |
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Sorry it was OT. On again with bearing failures.... |
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05-03-2013, 11:09 AM | #149 | |
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05-03-2013, 11:36 AM | #150 | |
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05-03-2013, 01:34 PM | #151 |
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If the oil clearance is set to .002 what modifications to the oil system would you recommend? The pressure stock is typicaly 40psi at idle and jumps to 80 psi at 2000 rpm. When the clearances are set to .002 it changes to 20-25 psi up to 2000 rpm then to 60 psi. Just curious how this would affect the daily driver type that will see below 2000 rpm frequently. I do appreciate your input.
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05-03-2013, 07:07 PM | #152 | |
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20-25 PSI is lots of oil pressure at idle (40 PSI actually a fairly high number at idle) if that is even the number that the S65 engine would have at .002". I have never seen anyone test the oil pressure on an S65 with .002" main bearing clearance but would look forward to the numbers. As for your maximum pressure, that is going to be set by the system relief valve......... if the relief is at 80 PSI, once the pump makes enough flow to go over relief it will still achieve that same 80 PSI that you state, it may just take a few more RPM to get there........ the principles of hydraulics are universal pressure is the resistance to flow and more flow equals more pressure. Flow increases as the oil pump RPM increases(oil pump speed is tied directly to engine RPM) which is why there has to be a system relief to protect the system from overpressure since the oiling system on the S65 uses a positive displacement pump. FYI: Dinan sets the main bearings to .0019" and the rods to .0025" on their strokers....... I obtained this information while shopping for a stroker! Obviously they see an issue with the tight OEM clearances and they don't see an oil pressure issue with adding a bit of clearance to the Mains and Rods since they use an OEM oil pump!
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05-03-2013, 07:35 PM | #153 | |
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Thanks. I do know of a LC motor that has been set to .002 and those are real specs I gave you. So you have a little more info if you wish to take it. It does not reach above 60 psi at that clearance. This is why I was curious if you were thinking a dry sump setup where you can achive different pressure/flow. Taking another S65 apart on Monday so I will let ya know what clearances are there and condition of bearings. It is a 2008. That is quite amazing if that is all Dinan is doing and maintaing pressure. If I remember correct BMW provided thinner shells for the S54 and a larger volume oil pump.
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05-04-2013, 12:00 AM | #154 | ||
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If the engine makes 20-25 PSI at Idle and climbs to 60 PSI by 2000 RPM the pump makes lots of volume. It is not sensible to think that a positive displacement pump ( a positive displacement pump flows a fixed amount of fluid for each revolution, therefore the faster the pump spins the more flow it makes) will not make the additional flow over another 7400 RPM of engine speed to reach the relief valve setting! From what you are explaining here, there is either an issue with the numbers (your claimed relief valve setting of 80 PSI), there is an issue with the pump, or there is an issue with the relief valve on that particular engine. By the way, although it is not necessary in all cases since the stock oiling system is quite capable, there is a dry sump developed for the S65 that retains AC!
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