Leaving the E9X M3 for F8X M3? Don't give up your E9X for anything

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Everyone loves the 1M but everyone also agree that the E9x is more special, mostly because of it's engine!

at 9min

I don't love the 1M. At all. Never have liked it or the 1 series.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by nickm3

Downgrade? yea in terms of speed. The M is built so much better than any American car or Jap car i had in the past. The Z06 motor isnt a race motor...theyve been using the same old Pushrod since God knows when. YEs the Z smokes the M, slap a blower on the M..bye bye Z. Refinement! Apples to oranges. Good luck

I just yesterday had the second throttle actuator on my car fail in less than a year, at a cost of almost $1000 each!!!! On top of that I also have to monitor lead in the oil in case the bearings fail and grenade the $25000 engine. How's that for the M's "build quality"? The LS7 with modifications is used in the C6R race car. That makes it a "race motor". And that pushrod engine you hate so much makes the LS7 produce way more power and torque than the S65 throughout the entire rev range, while also being ligher and more compact, cheaper, more reliable, more mod-friendly, and on top of that more fuel efficient. And it doesn't chew up its bearings like the "modern" S65 either. Oh, and even with a blower the M is not even in the same league as a Z06. The Z06 lapped the ring in 7:43 way back in 2005. This is something even the F80 M3 cannot do!

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

The car looks a bit cheap from the outside, but that can go, but then I jump inside and it's just the crapiest interior I've sitted in since my friends Sunfire in highschool, that's not OK at all, and finally I went for a ride and the car felt like a boat on the highway, like the steering was not connected to the wheels and the wheels were not connected to the road! Overhall a big dissapointment of a car(judged on my personnal criteria)!

I thought you said you went for a ride? How did you figure out the steering feel? Or were you driving? No idea what you mean by the car feeling like a boat. I've been in a ride in one. If anything it's the M3 that feels like a boat in comparison. The Z06 has such a low go-kart seating position, and seemingly unlimited grip in corners. By contrast my M3 struggles with understeer on the track, and in quick transitions the weight and soft suspension can cause the car to unsettle.

Originally Posted by Ezio

thats spot on. The LS motors have tons of power and a lot of room for more power. But they are more of a lazy motor.

What exactly is a "lazy motor"? An engine that you don't have to redline just to get the car going? An engine that has gobs of torque and power through out its entire rev range as opposed to a tiny powerband up there? How is that a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Since when being lighter then its predecessor is an M principle!? As for the better aero, suspension, brakes and performance, every M3 since the first one has been improved in those departement!

Funny but I thought ///M stands for Motorsports, i.e. track performance. And what was the #1 enemy of performance? Why, it's weight!

[W///]

Staying. My E92 is not a lease and it's definitely a keeper. Cars will come and go, but the E92 has a special in my heart.

I'd be interested in adding an YMB F80 way down the road.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I don't love the 1M. At all. Never have liked it or the 1 series.

I never liked the 1series either but I gotta say that I liked the 1M when it first came out, but now when I look at one, I only see nice parts bolted to an ugly shaped car! The 2 series on the other hand looks really good which make me think that the new M2 will be an handsome car, hopefully it will get proper sport seats as opposed to the 1M!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Petros

What exactly is a "lazy motor"? An engine that you don't have to redline just to get the car going? An engine that has gobs of torque and power through out its entire rev range as opposed to a tiny powerband up there? How is that a bad thing?

!

many people love screaming high revving motors. a lot of exotics runs this type of motor also. And a lot of race cars are based off this. having power at every RPM is not needed at the track.

Its much more expensive to make this type of engine. Which is why i understand you. the Z06 is hell of a car! light weight with a big V8.

All in all. The ls7 is actually one of my favorite motors of all time. I use to drive a LS3 camaro with a built engine making 540HP N/A. I know more about LS motors than i do about the S65. Going to a slower S65 M3. The engine hits me as something more special.

for some people you stop chasing the best performance money can buy. And you go for things that are different or making you feel a certain way.

If i could i would own a Z06 Ls7 and E92 m3.

[Dannys M3]

The way I look at it is...life is too short to stick with just one vehicle. That being said I've been looking at european delivery on the M4 next summer. I'll have close to 160,000 miles by next year and if my oil analysis on the S65 starts going bad I'll have to consider the C7 corvette or a slightly used 991 S.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Dannys M3

The way I look at it is...life is too short to stick with just one vehicle. That being said I've been looking at european delivery on the M4 next summer. I'll have close to 160,000 miles by next year and if my oil analysis on the S65 starts going bad I'll have to consider the C7 corvette or a slightly used 991 S.

Wow! Your car is probably the highest mileage M3 in the whole world!!!!! How are your oil analyses? Still on the original bearings?

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Petros

I thought you said you went for a ride? How did you figure out the steering feel? Or were you driving? No idea what you mean by the car feeling like a boat. I've been in a ride in one. If anything it's the M3 that feels like a boat in comparison. The Z06 has such a low go-kart seating position, and seemingly unlimited grip in corners. By contrast my M3 struggles with understeer on the track, and in quick transitions the weight and soft suspension can cause the car to unsettle.

What exactly is a "lazy motor"? An engine that you don't have to redline just to get the car going? An engine that has gobs of torque and power through out its entire rev range as opposed to a tiny powerband up there? How is that a bad thing?



Funny but I thought ///M stands for Motorsports, i.e. track performance. And what was the #1 enemy of performance? Why, it's weight!

No I have'nt driven it, I said it felt like a boat because I thought that the car felt detach from the pavement, just like a boat that rides on water, just the feeling I had! You know when a boat passes on some waves and you just don't feel a thing, seemed a bit like that to me! Can't speak of the steering feel!

As for what the ///M stands for, don't really care, all I know is that I would'nt trade my 8300RPM supercharged V8 for a souped up 335 engine!

And by the way, it's funny Ezio said that because lazy is exactly the word I had in mind to describe what I thought of the engine in the Z06 of my friend! The numbers on paper are impressive but I was'nt impress at all when I was in the car(at least at lower RPMs)!

[Amirsm3]

Originally Posted by dpgfunk

i'll make the switch when ZCP comes around

This, except I'll be adding instead of replacing my e90.

[Dannys M3]

Originally Posted by Petros

Wow! Your car is probably the highest mileage M3 in the whole world!!!!! How are your oil analyses? Still on the original bearings?

I'm currently at 130,000 and I took a sample at 116,000. Yes original bearings. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...8#post14910578

This means I'll be doing another analysis within 1000 miles.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Dannys M3

I'm currently at 130,000 and I took a sample at 116,000. Yes original bearings. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...8#post14910578

This means I'll be doing another analysis within 1000 miles.

Holy cow!!!! Your lead was 45 ppm!!!! Keep an eye on it. If it stays high or if copper begins to show up you may need new bearings soon.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by aus

I'm sure you guys are right and many will eventually come around to the F8x, but it's different now compared to when the E46 M3 came out, and then when the E9x M3 came out. They stuck to the traditional core //M principles of a high reving, race engine inspired motor. The motors in the //M cars were always special and would win engine of the year awards all the time.

This new car has essentially NO CORE //M principles in it. It has some cool tech and carbon fiber tech in it, but the engine is a joke, and clearly a way for BMW to make more money as the MAIN factor and better fuel economy as a secondary factor, but the fuel economy is the one they MARKET as the main reason for going FI. It's not like BMW sells huge volumes of M3's. How much better is the S55 than FBO tuned N54?? I'm sure it's more reliable since it'll be designed fro 430HP stock, but it sounds like SH$T compared to the other BMW turbo 6's.
There's just nothing special about the S55, IMO... but I'm the 2% and not the 98% who will buy the F80 and never track it, but will LOVE the torque down low and the push in the back it'll give them so they feel like they're going so fast. That's who BMW is selling the car too now.

.

Your post is dead on. The m4 engine is cheaper to manufacture than a state of the art S65 high revving engine. All this m4 decisions were made at a time of global economical world crisis (2008-2009). Profit margin on this m4 is no doubt much higher for BMW. They had to lower their financial risk over their whole line of cars and going with a small turbo means they'll need to sell much fewer of them to get even. In comparison the E92 was developped in a time of opulence when the best materials were chosen and the most daring and challenging technological choices were made. Selling an E92 for a F82 would be like selling gold to replace it with imitation gold.

[Gbiz]

Not a chance of switching for me. If I get bored with my ZCP E90 M3, then I will get a blower. I already had a 335i with the N54; I'm not going back to deal with turbo problems. The only thing I would take, however, are the new seats and navigation. The new navigation screens for the F model 3 series have a much more robust display and are much quicker than that of the E9X.

[mowmentous]

If the F8x substantially reduced the weight with more liberal use of aluminum (see this Ford Fusion lightweight concept for what could be accomplished
http://driving.ca/ford/fusion/auto-n...fusion-concept
), and kept a V8 in there, with DI, cylinder deactivation and whatever other fuel saving features, they would have my money. Since I knew that wasn't coming, I got into an E92 last year and will be keeping it for at least 4 more years.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by Petros

I just yesterday had the second throttle actuator on my car fail in less than a year, at a cost of almost $1000 each!!!! On top of that I also have to monitor lead in the oil in case the bearings fail and grenade the $25000 engine. How's that for the M's "build quality"? The LS7 with modifications is used in the C6R race car.

You've been bitching and complaining for months against the E92 m3 feeling so bitter with your used 2008 M3. Many used first years production m3 especially leased ones and multiple owners have seen hell and back. If you wanted a solid car you should have bought your own new m3, so you'd known it's been well taken car of, pushed to the limits but not trashed like a rental (which is what a temporary owned car is really). And if you could not afford a new E92 M3 then you've got no legitimacy to post bitterness here because you're experiencing the aftermath of a raped car by its previous torturers. Ask owners who bought their M3 brand new, from any model year, this car is holding together amazingly well. You'll understand you get what you paid for if you get a cheap used one.

Just go buy something in your financial league like a subaru WRX. European cars require diligent upkeep and are expensive to fix. What did you expect with a used 2008 ? if you can't pay you can't play. You should definitively buy a pushrod vette, used. Learn your lesson and move on, BMW isn't for you you've bashed that for months (and clearly porsche even less).

Originally Posted by Petros

That makes it a "race motor". And that pushrod engine you hate so much makes the LS7 produce way more power and torque than the S65 throughout the entire rev range, while also being ligher and more compact, cheaper, more reliable, more mod-friendly, and on top of that more fuel efficient. And it doesn't chew up its bearings like the "modern" S65 either. Oh, and even with a blower the M is not even in the same league as a Z06. The Z06 lapped the ring in 7:43 way back in 2005. This is something even the F80 M3 cannot do!

The usable powerband of the E92 M3 is huge. You don't seem to even know what usable powerband is. It is defined by a flat torque from 3,000 to 8,400 RPM. The ZO6 torque curve isn't flat at all. This is undesirable for tracking due to changing traction over RPM so one ends up having to put wider heavier tires that can sustain the peak of that torque while being unnecessarily big and heavy at 95% of the RPM band. And if you decide to stay with smaller tires traction issues will kill this car usability on a track. The power band of such a car is much narrower than an M3 because powerband is defined by linear power and flat torque.

Sure if you put a professional pilot who trained on this non ideal car long enough he will be able to dangerously push it but by no mean is it a worthy car for the mainstream of people who track cars. The M3 is a far better choice for experienced people and those developing racing skills (and for tracking enjoyment). The Zo6 torque already starts dropping at 4300 RPM and is down by 25% by the time it reaches its very low 6,600 rpm redline. Sure it has more power but like all pushrod engines the lack of a flat torque curve makes them quirky and ill suited to drive fast except straight. The M3 is X10 superior to a Zo6 when it comes to usability of its power even if that power is less. It's a driver's track car. The zo6 is not.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

You've been bitching and complaining for months against the E92 m3 feeling so bitter with your used 2008 M3. Many used first years production m3 especially leased ones and multiple owners have seen hell and back. If you wanted a solid car you should have bought your own new m3, so you'd known it's been well taken car of, pushed to the limits but not trashed like a rental (which is what a temporary owned car is really). And if you could not afford a new E92 M3 then you've got no legitimacy to post bitterness here because you're experiencing the aftermath of a raped car by its previous torturers. Ask owners who bought their M3 brand new, from any model year, this car is holding together amazingly well. You'll understand you get what you paid for if you get a cheap used one.

Just go buy something in your financial league like a subaru WRX. European cars require diligent upkeep and are expensive to fix. What did you expect with a used 2008 ? if you can't pay you can't play. You should definitively buy a pushrod vette, used. Learn your lesson and move on, BMW isn't for you you've bashed that for months (and clearly porsche even less).


.

man this was a great read. Its simple you cant afford to hang with these types of cars. then don't get one! its funny to hear people bitch about cost to repair. your driving a 70k BMW.......

on a side note, i agree this car holds up so well.

[thegeneral101]

have a deposit for a new Z06...

[LarThaL]

In all honesty, until I can test drive the new M3/4, I will reserve judgement.

That being said, I already have a blistering fast turbo vehicle. I will tell you that sheer speed capability is far from everything in terms of driving enjoyment.

Obviously, speed capability is a factor, but in an absolute sense, the current M3 is plenty fast. It is the subjective feel, linearity, and sound of the engine that deliver an intoxicating driving experience. All turbo cars will have lag, and if you are in that zone of the power band where you are either on or off boost, the car oscillates between bogging and lunging. You can obviously learn to drive around this, but it just isn't the feel of an engine like the S65.

So while the new car will be objectively faster, the really question is will it excite all the senses in the same way?

In any case, I never buy a car the first year out and if I do move to the f8x platform, it won't be until mid-cycle like I did with my e92.

[ilikebmxbikes]

both?

[Petros]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

You've been bitching and complaining for months against the E92 m3 feeling so bitter with your used 2008 M3. Many used first years production m3 especially leased ones and multiple owners have seen hell and back. If you wanted a solid car you should have bought your own new m3, so you'd known it's been well taken car of, pushed to the limits but not trashed like a rental (which is what a temporary owned car is really). And if you could not afford a new E92 M3 then you've got no legitimacy to post bitterness here because you're experiencing the aftermath of a raped car by its previous torturers. Ask owners who bought their M3 brand new, from any model year, this car is holding together amazingly well. You'll understand you get what you paid for if you get a cheap used one.

Just go buy something in your financial league like a subaru WRX. European cars require diligent upkeep and are expensive to fix. What did you expect with a used 2008 ? if you can't pay you can't play. You should definitively buy a pushrod vette, used. Learn your lesson and move on, BMW isn't for you you've bashed that for months (and clearly porsche even less).

What a ridiculous rant full of hot air and false assumptions. Actually I could have bought a brand new M3 no problem. It's not like I have to skip meals to afford this car I got a 2008 model simply because why not? It was half the price of a new one, and the car has been essentially unchanged in all its model run (minus Nav and taillights). Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I should feel glad to pay $1000 for a simple part that probably doesn't even cost a tenth of that to manufacture. And by the way, you rant and vent rage at used cars being "abused" and "raped" by their previous owners, and you fail to realize a simple fact. These problems I complain about are caused by a design flaw in the part. Care to explain to me how owner abuse causes a throttle actuator to fail? Is that something that's supposed to be maintained somehow and bad maintenance is causing them to break down? And rod bearings? That's caused by tight clearance coupled with too thick OEM oil. What does that sound like? Why, it sounds like a design flaw! These are very simple basic components that are supposed to last the lifetime of the car. Them failing often is inexusable, and don't give me any BS about owner abuse. That has nothing to do with it. Other companies seem to have no problem making those parts reliable.

And to add the final nail in the coffin of your ridiculous argument, a quick search of this forum reveals that even a new or semi-new M3 is not guaranteed to be immune from a bearing or actuator failure

The usable powerband of the E92 M3 is huge. You don't seem to even know what usable powerband is. It is defined by a flat torque from 3,000 to 8,400 RPM. The ZO6 torque curve isn't flat at all. This is undesirable for tracking due to changing traction over RPM so one ends up having to put wider heavier tires that can sustain the peak of that torque while being unnecessarily big and heavy at 95% of the RPM band. And if you decide to stay with smaller tires traction issues will kill this car usability on a track. The power band of such a car is much narrower than an M3 because powerband is defined by linear power and flat torque.

Sure if you put a professional pilot who trained on this non ideal car long enough he will be able to dangerously push it but by no mean is it a worthy car for the mainstream of people who track cars. The M3 is a far better choice for experienced people and those developing racing skills (and for tracking enjoyment). The Zo6 torque already starts dropping at 4300 RPM and is down by 25% by the time it reaches its very low 6,600 rpm redline. Sure it has more power but like all pushrod engines the lack of a flat torque curve makes them quirky and ill suited to drive fast except straight. The M3 is X10 superior to a Zo6 when it comes to usability of its power even if that power is less. It's a driver's track car. The zo6 is not.

Another big rant about nothing. Usable power band is the power band that can be utilized, nothing more. All this speech about flat torque curve is irrelevant, just like your rant about used M3 being "raped" by their previous owners. The Z06 has more torque and power all over the entire rev range than the M3. Whether it's at low rpm for the streets or high rpm for the track. The M3 may have a flat torque curve, but there is little torque available anyway. That means one has to stay in low gears and keep the rpm high to be able to utilize the traction and get good acceleration, instead of bogging down. And just because someone doesn't know how to drive a Z06 on a track doesn't mean an M3 is better track car. It simply means that person needs to learn how to drive.

Originally Posted by Ezio

man this was a great read. Its simple you cant afford to hang with these types of cars. then don't get one! its funny to hear people bitch about cost to repair. your driving a 70k BMW.......

on a side note, i agree this car holds up so well.

There are cars that cost more that have less repair costs. Parts are overpriced more because it's a BMW than due to its $70k price.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

In all honesty, until I can test drive the new M3/4, I will reserve judgement.

That being said, I already have a blistering fast turbo vehicle. I will tell you that sheer speed capability is far from everything in terms of driving enjoyment.

Obviously, speed capability is a factor, but in an absolute sense, the current M3 is plenty fast. It is the subjective feel, linearity, and sound of the engine that deliver an intoxicating driving experience. All turbo cars will have lag, and if you are in that zone of the power band where you are either on or off boost, the car oscillates between bogging and lunging. You can obviously learn to drive around this, but it just isn't the feel of an engine like the S65.

So while the new car will be objectively faster, the really question is will it excite all the senses in the same way?

In any case, I never buy a car the first year out and if I do move to the f8x platform, it won't be until mid-cycle like I did with my e92.

Perhaps if you only drive on the road. But if you drive on a track you quickly get used to the speed and power, and you feel hungry for more. And there are moments on the track where the E90 does feel slow and you feel like the tires can handle putting more power to the road. Where the F80 will shine over the E90 is tunability. It will be a more friendly platform for power mods. The engine will be more robust and capable of handling more power without the need for expensive rebuilds.

[aus]

Still no tunes for the S63tu...

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