BMW M3 vs. Audi RS5

[footie]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

You know, what good is your "insider" information if it changes 10 times before it becomes official? If you were offering that kind of stock insider info I wouldn't trust a single penny of my money with it! Your M.O. is to use ambiguous words like maybe, likely etc. follow by a wink or eyeroll emoticon.

What BMW car was expected to show at Geneva and never did.............the 1M. One of the most renowned BMW insiders on the Internet (Scott) got this wrong, so what does this tell you............that sometimes we get it wrong. That is why I prefer a different approach, I prefer to use 'maybe' or or the likes because I don't want to get people's hopes up. This comes with experience, something you get after years in this line of work.

Originally Posted by ///Metak

You keep pounding your chest defending your opinion! Opinions aside, what you said above is totally incorrect. Let's talk FACTS. Audi has seen a decline in sales in their largest market(Germany). A market in which they sell 4times as many cars than they sell in the US. I guess they are achieving their goal in exusivity in the US, congratulations Audi. You also say Audi doesn't have to push volume in the "largest market in the world"(The US) because they got so much money and they can afford to be more exclusive, that's why Audis biggest sales increase was in the Asian-pacific market, especially China, which I would argue is the largest untapped auto market in the world! So much for exculsivity...

You might not have the most up to date figures so let me help you will that.

Sales for Jan 2010 for both Audi cars and BMW Group which includes not only BMW models but Mini and Rolls Royce as well.

Worldwide : (percentage growth)
Audi 77,800 (39%) vs BMW Group 82,120 (16.6%)

BMW cars only 69,852 (15.9%)

Western Europe :
Audi 44957 vs BMW Group 41,087

Asia/Pacific :
Audi 20,850 vs 18,523

USofA :
Audi 6,510 vs 18,501

In other words Audi are outselling BMW at the moment, fun that, with only the US market showing BMW's dominance which is understandable seeing how important it is. So as I said Audi don't see the US market as something they need to dramatically increase sales in because they have already out grown BMW in global.

Originally Posted by ///Metak

I suggest you read your post again, maybe you will realize how it's little more than condesending dribble.

Please explain where the dribble was coming from because it sure wasn't from me.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by footie

You might not have the most up to date figures so let me help you will that.

Sales for Jan 2010 for both Audi cars and BMW Group which includes not only BMW models but Mini and Rolls Royce as well.

Worldwide : (percentage growth)
Audi 77,800 (39%) vs BMW Group 82,120 (16.6%)

BMW cars only 69,852 (15.9%)

Western Europe :
Audi 44957 vs BMW Group 41,087

Asia/Pacific :
Audi 20,850 vs 18,523

USofA :
Audi 6,510 vs 18,501

In other words Audi are outselling BMW at the moment, fun that, with only the US market showing BMW's dominance which is understandable seeing how important it is. So as I said Audi don't see the US market as something they need to dramatically increase sales in because they have already out grown BMW in global.

Riiiiiiiight.

Your data is dated. I think I can help you out here.


Worldwide Sales for Feb 2010

Audi AG: approx. 75.900
My "Inside Source": http://www.audiusanews.com/newsrelea...A9BE27?id=1700

BMW brand ONLY (no Mini; no Rolls Royce): 78,248 (91,758 incl. Mini/RR)
My other "Inside Source": http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....ource=overview

Moral: My inside sources > than yours.

[footie]

I chose Jan 2010 because it gave a split between regions but you are correct that BMW sold approximately 3000 cars more than Audi did in Feb, but even with this improvement they trail Audi on this years overall sales.

I was simply showing Metak that his data was wrong, as so often is the case.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by footie

....You might not have the most up to date figures so let me help you will that.

Sales for Jan 2010 for both Audi cars and BMW Group which includes not only BMW models but Mini and Rolls Royce as well.

Worldwide : (percentage growth)
Audi 77,800 (39%) vs BMW Group 82,120 (16.6%)

BMW cars only 69,852 (15.9%)

Western Europe :
Audi 44957 vs BMW Group 41,087

Asia/Pacific :
Audi 20,850 vs 18,523

USofA :
Audi 6,510 vs 18,501

In other words Audi are outselling BMW at the moment, fun that, with only the US market showing BMW's dominance which is understandable seeing how important it is. So as I said Audi don't see the US market as something they need to dramatically increase sales in because they have already out grown BMW in global.



Please explain where the dribble was coming from because it sure wasn't from me.

Did you even read my post? It's like you are replying to another post the rest of us can't see. I prefer to look at trends, not 1 month data. My figures were 08 vs 09, not just one month in '10. My original point was that Audi sales were down in '09 compared to '08 in most markets and definately worldwide, is this not true? I never compared it to BMW sales worldwide like you are doing in order to confuse the arguement. You claim that Audi doesn't really care that BMW outsells Audi in the US because it allows them to be more "exclusive". Nevertheless, you still proved my point. BMW outsells Audi 3:1 in the USA. You're right Audi is more "exclusive" as you say. LoL. Although, my inside Audi sources say they would rather be LESS exclusive in the US market.
Also, you confirmed my statement that Audis biggest gains were in the Asian-pacific market and continue to be in '10, a market BMW has had major problems in, not because the people don't like them but rather because China doesn't respect trademark or copyright laws and is openly copying BMW design, name, logo etc...
As far as the dribble, well I boldfaced it for you in my last post! "you understand even though we don't, ...you fully undertsand" we get it!

[logpak23]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Did you even read my post? It's like you are replying to another post the rest of us can't see. I prefer to look at trends, not 1 month data. My figures were 08 vs 09, not just one month in '10. My original point was that Audi sales were down in '09 compared to '08 in most markets and definately worldwide, is this not true? I never compared it to BMW sales worldwide like you are doing in order to confuse the arguement. You claim that Audi doesn't really care that BMW outsells Audi in the US because it allows them to be more "exclusive". Nevertheless, you still proved my point. BMW outsells Audi 3:1 in the USA. You're right Audi is more "exclusive" as you say. LoL. Although, my inside Audi sources say they would rather be LESS exclusive in the US market.
Also, you confirmed my statement that Audis biggest gains were in the Asian-pacific market and continue to be in '10, a market BMW has had major problems in, not because the people don't like them but rather because China doesn't respect trademark or copyright laws and is openly copying BMW design, name, logo etc...
As far as the dribble, well I boldfaced it for you in my last post! "you understand even though we don't, ...you fully undertsand" we get it!

lol dont flame on me but you said i look at trends, how can you look at trends from a year ago even 2 years ago times a changing. A trend is looking at something that has been repeatedly occurring for some time. what i think footie is trying to say it is that audi is gaining popularity and that they are narrowing the gap in sales in places other then the U.S. The month that he showed shows a trend because several months before hand Audi started to catch up and are actually pretty close in sales figures, except for the U.S. All in all im starting to see a lot of Audi's driving around and they seem to look really nice, but it just makes me love my car even more soo much for exclusivity

[mixja]

Note that if the RS5 comes to the US, Footie you might be disappointed. The US-spec RS4 was proven to be quite heavier than the EU-spec RS4, so if this is repeated, the M3 should have no troubles against the RS5 in the US anyway...

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by logpak23

lol dont flame on me but you said i look at trends, how can you look at trends from a year ago even 2 years ago times a changing. A trend is looking at something that has been repeatedly occurring for some time. what i think footie is trying to say it is that audi is gaining popularity and that they are narrowing the gap in sales in places other then the U.S. The month that he showed shows a trend because several months before hand Audi started to catch up and are actually pretty close in sales figures, except for the U.S. All in all im starting to see a lot of Audi's driving around and they seem to look really nice, but it just makes me love my car even more soo much for exclusivity

Not gonna flame but how is looking at one month more statistically significant than looking at 12 months from '08 to '09? We can't compare '09 to '10 because we obviously only have two months to compare. Like Eau Rogue stated, BMW outpaced Audi in the month of Feb '10. So if you prefer more current data then there you have it. So far in 2010, Audi sold less cars than BMW. What I was disagreeing with Footie was his assertion that Audi is not interested in volume in the US and it allows them to be more exclusive. Ridiculous. I also think his insider info is silly. Just my opinion of course. You judge for yourself! I mean really, his example of how he predicted the M3 Comp package months before anyone else and before it was official? Seriously? As soon as the E9x M3's came out there was rumours and photoshops all over the Internet of a possible Comp Package.

[logpak23]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Not gonna flame but how is looking at one month more statistically significant than looking at 12 months from '08 to '09? We can't compare '09 to '10 because we obviously only have two months to compare. Like Eau Rogue stated, BMW outpaced Audi in the month of Feb '10. So if you prefer more current data then there you have it. So far in 2010, Audi sold less cars than BMW. What I was disagreeing with Footie was his assertion that Audi is not interested in volume in the US and it allows them to be more exclusive. Ridiculous. I also think his insider info is silly. Just my opinion of course. You judge for yourself! I mean really, his example of how he predicted the M3 Comp package months before anyone else and before it was official? Seriously? As soon as the E9x M3's came out there was rumours and photoshops all over the Internet of a possible Comp Package.

Your right about my post, but i wont comment about what was said about footie. i dont know to much about how to sell cars, but i buy what i feel meets my requirements and right now its a BMW, if this new Audi meets my expectations from a car i would be happy to invest in it. Also i cant wait until they actually test the car head to head with its competition.

[footie]

Metak,

Can I educate you a little. In 2008 we didn't have the world economy meltdown until Sept, so for 8 months we had great sales month on month, but 2009 was a different matter. We are starting to slowly come out of this and that is why my 2010 figures are more relevant.

So while you believe I was the one reading a different post, it was actually you that wasn't with the program.

P.S.
If the Competition package was so well known then why was it so hush hush on here, also why when I highlighted the fact did no one make comments like 'that's old news', instead you all laughed at my comments clearly showing that you hadn't an F'ing clue about what's going on.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mixja

Note that if the RS5 comes to the US, Footie you might be disappointed. The US-spec RS4 was proven to be quite heavier than the EU-spec RS4, so if this is repeated, the M3 should have no troubles against the RS5 in the US anyway...

I don't doubt that it will quote a higher weigh, but this will have as much to do with it's extra equipment than just country regulation differences.

In any case why would I be disappointed with a car that will be sold in a market that I don't live in or will buy from. If the RS5 doesn't live up to expectations then most of you will feel better with your original purchase of the M3, but I suppose you will find out in just over a year.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by footie

Metak,

Can I educate you a little. In 2008 we didn't have the world economy meltdown until Sept, so for 8 months we had great sales month on month, but 2009 was a different matter. We are starting to slowly come out of this and that is why my 2010 figures are more relevant.

So while you believe I was the one reading a different post, it was actually you that wasn't with the program.

P.S.
If the Competition package was so well known then why was it so hush hush on here, also why when I highlighted the fact did no one make comments like 'that's old news', instead you all laughed at my comments clearly showing that you hadn't an F'ing clue about what's going on.

Gee, thanks for educating me. More condesending dribble. Big surprise, you do that with everyone that disagrees with you.

Interesting though, the main point I was making you still insist on ignoring. I just emailed my Audi insider your quotes about how Audi feels about the US market, he/she laughed! Audi doesn't "need" the sales volume in the US and "chooses" to be more exclusive as you say? LoL. Why bother with all the commercials, why bother bringing the RS to the states? If you knew anything about Audi, you would know that it would love to dominate BMW in the US market.

Originally Posted by footie

.... So you see Audi don't need the same sales quantities and can chose to be more exclusive.....

Originally Posted by footie

..... So as I said Audi don't see the US market as something they need to dramatically increase sales.....

[shiggy]

I cant believe some people would use the word exclusive and Audi in the same sentence.....I think Footie is confusing exclusivity with poor sales!
In addition, the REAL reason why the RS5 may not come to NA is for one reason and one reason alone....ROI.....the RS5 will not turn a profit for them as they know it cannot compete with what is currently offered by other manufactures....the numbers will not add up!
Audi is struggling with low sales of the RS4 and the S5.....why add to the problem.....maybe they should hire a few more people to swarm BMW and Mercedes forums!!!!

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by footie

Metak,

Can I educate you a little. In 2008 we didn't have the world economy meltdown until Sept, so for 8 months we had great sales month on month, but 2009 was a different matter. We are starting to slowly come out of this and that is why my 2010 figures are more relevant.

So while you believe I was the one reading a different post, it was actually you that wasn't with the program.

P.S.
If the Competition package was so well known then why was it so hush hush on here, also why when I highlighted the fact did no one make comments like 'that's old news', instead you all laughed at my comments clearly showing that you hadn't an F'ing clue about what's going on.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Not gonna flame but how is looking at one month more statistically significant than looking at 12 months from '08 to '09? We can't compare '09 to '10 because we obviously only have two months to compare. Like Eau Rogue stated, BMW outpaced Audi in the month of Feb '10. So if you prefer more current data then there you have it. So far in 2010, Audi sold less cars than BMW. What I was disagreeing with Footie was his assertion that Audi is not interested in volume in the US and it allows them to be more exclusive. Ridiculous. I also think his insider info is silly. Just my opinion of course. You judge for yourself! I mean really, his example of how he predicted the M3 Comp package months before anyone else and before it was official? Seriously? As soon as the E9x M3's came out there was rumours and photoshops all over the Internet of a possible Comp Package.

BMW may sell more cars than Audi. However, Audi is gaining market share at a much quicker pace than BMW at the moment. In fact, Audi is the only manufacturer out of BMW, MB and Lexus to see strong growth in North America.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...,1187263.shtml

http://www.articleant.com/gen/13629-...010-sales.html

[footie]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Gee, thanks for educating me. More condesending dribble. Big surprise, you do that with everyone that disagrees with you.

Glad to be of service because clearly you do need steering in the right direction.

Originally Posted by ///Metak

Interesting though, the main point I was making you still insist on ignoring. I just emailed my Audi insider your quotes about how Audi feels about the US market, he/she laughed! Audi doesn't "need" the sales volume in the US and "chooses" to be more exclusive as you say? LoL. Why bother with all the commercials, why bother bringing the RS to the states? If you knew anything about Audi, you would know that it would love to dominate BMW in the US market.

If you bother to read fully what I have continued to say on the subject of the US market is that Audi aren't in the game of reducing profits simply to win sales as has been the case with BMW in this market. To dominate at the expense of profit is not something that Audi will do, they don't have to.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by footie

Glad to be of service because clearly you do need steering in the right direction.

If you bother to read fully what I have continued to say on the subject of the US market is that Audi aren't in the game of reducing profits simply to win sales as has been the case with BMW in this market. To dominate at the expense of profit is not something that Audi will do, they don't have to.

First of all, too bad my sarcasm escapes you!

Secondly, are you kidding me? For the same reason Walmart is willing to sell bicyles at no profit or at a loss in order to drive the smaller copetitors out of the market, both BMW and Audi are willing to do the same. One you have the market the profit follows.

[southlight]

Fine, I assume this thread can be closed now that you guys have nothing more to add regarding the original topic.

Questions via PM only.


Best regards,
south