Will the G80 M3 redeem the M3?

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Yep... ridiculous question if I'm honest. You either have solid seat time in a *late model* (preferably ZCP) F80 or you don't. And if you don't you literally have no clue how amazing the car really is.

Trust me guys - upon my first two test drives I was totally turned off by the F80. My god was wrong.... my head was so far up my ass it's not even funny.



It sounds pretty good, actually, from inside the cabin. Stop listening to youtube videos of base-car drive by's. A ZCP car and/or a base car with a carefully selected muffler sounds pretty good. S65 good? Heck no, but there's a WIDE chasm between "sound like crap" and "sounding like an S65".

Back on topic, I think the G80 will have more emphasis on ride quality/NVH levels as the F80 is borderline too hardcore. I think the G80 will improve steering feel. I think the G80 *pure* will be quite a bit lighter. Should be essentially a polished F80 = WINNING.



Dude - the ZCP cars do NOT have traction problems. Feel like a broken record here. I tear up the canyons in my ZCP without any traction issues whatsoever.

And regarding high rpm - focusing on the absolute redline rpm is meaningless and shortsighted. What matters behind the wheel is A) the motor's useable powerband and B) it's character as the revs rise. What we want is a motor that pulls hard all the way up.... where the actual limit is matters not.

The S55 is killer in that it A) has a super wide/potent working range (3k to 7k) and B) pulls reasonably hard (it's not S65 good but it's pretty good) to top of its working range. It certainly pulls harder/longer than the mainstream NA American V8s out there (LSX, Coyotes). Further, there are numerous aftermarket tunes specially designed to increase only the high rpm output - these are called the "linear" or "flat torque" tunes - they keep the midrange output near stock levels but gradually increase the boost as the rpms climb, thus replicating that high rpm NA motor feel (not that the S55 is really lacking much in stock form although, ideally, it would pull a little harder up top).

No, I didn't mean it sarcastically. 295/30/18 square is a popular choice for track guys in Japan. Since I will get 285/30/18 square for my next set of tires, I see absolutely no reason for AWD to post quick lap times. I would rather feel light on my feet.

I am the old car type guy. Screaming 9000 rpm at 125ps/L, AP1 S2000 is by far my favorite roadster I have ever driven. If you put Spoon exhaust, it almost resembles an F1 car...Same reason why I got E92. Got a very exotic V8 that literally sounds nothing like other V8s. They just don't make 'em like they used to do....

I have to confess though, I really like the overall package of F82 M4. I would love to add one in my garage for different fun, but I wouldn't trade E92 for it

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Haha, yes.... but you're not inside the car.

That's all that matters.

What people find most offensive, myself included, is the farting sounds during boost blow-off. This is most pronounced in DCT cars but still present to some degree in 6MT cars.

But I am telling you right now that from behind the wheel the ZCP sounds pretty damn good - it is simply a moot point and carrying on and on and on about it is really quite silly - not directed at you, just that the single most common source of F80 shit talking is how it sounds - there is SO much more to this car. This is akin to the E46 M3 which sounds pretty shitty from outside the car (raspy/tiny/bees) but quite visceral from inside.

I would agree, though, that in general turbo motors don't sound as good as NA motors. But time marches on and 'sound' is only one factor in the overall equation. As longs as it's "good enough" it shouldn't be an issue.

Finally - I personally can't stand how the E9XM sounds with exhaust - it sounds like a wannabe muscle car which it most certainly is not - it is the quintessential V8 powered anti-musclecar. The best sound an S65 makes is its induction noises above 6k rpm with a stock exhaust. That's what you call thrilling from inside the cabin.... oh my. The F80 could never, ever, ever... in a million years, compete with that.

What bothers me most of turbo cars is the exhaust may be 'loud' but has no tonality as you climb through the rev range.
I've driven all those cars save the McLaren. I want to know what people are smoking when they say current AMGs sound good. They sound terrible.

The sound thing that's always mentioned on F8X cars is the same as the torqueless complaint of the E9X. Turbo engines sound bad and the F8X also sounds bad, but very similar to other turbo engines. This is not the deal breaker for me. Numb steering at the track is.

I have most experience with the GTS on track and, like all Ms, it is a pussycat to drive fast. Super predictable, plenty of warning before letting go, etc. If I were to buy a new track car the F8X would be the only game in town for me

[Raek]

Meh.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

No, I didn't mean it sarcastically. 295/30/18 square is a popular choice for track guys in Japan. Since I will get 285/30/18 square for my next set of tires, I see absolutely no reason for AWD to post quick lap times. I would rather feel light on my feet.

I am the old car type guy. Screaming 9000 rpm at 125ps/L, AP1 S2000 is by far my favorite roadster I have ever driven. If you put Spoon exhaust, it almost resembles an F1 car...Same reason why I got E92. Got a very exotic V8 that literally sounds nothing like other V8s. They just don't make 'em like they used to do....

I have to confess though, I really like the overall package of F82 M4. I would love to add one in my garage for different fun, but I wouldn't trade E92 for it

Totally agree on the AWD but I think that will be offered to appeal to all climates more than tracktimes, could be wrong of course.

The G80 pure sounds good to me. Capped power, 6MT, lightweight, RWD. Should be badass as long as it looks good.

Also totally agreed on the HSO NA screamer motors - the ultimate. But I love all performance cars and judge them based on their overall package. The current M3/4 is mind-blowing as a package, even though it may lack certain subjective qualities of the older cars. It's okay to be fair/honest about the pros/cons of different platforms. It's okay to try and appreciate and enjoy different formulas.

Going turbo does require a mental adjustment. But once you recalibrate your mind you realize how expertly dialed the S55 really is. The part throttle response/resolution/control and POWER is like no M3 before. That doesn't make it better or more fulfilling in all ways but it's freaking damn good.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

What bothers me most of turbo cars is the exhaust may be 'loud' but has no tonality as you climb through the rev range.
I've driven all those cars save the McLaren. I want to know what people are smoking when they say current AMGs sound good. They sound terrible.

The sound thing that's always mentioned on F8X cars is the same as the torqueless complaint of the E9X. Turbo engines sound bad and the F8X also sounds bad, but very similar to other turbo engines. This is not the deal breaker for me. Numb steering at the track is.

I have most experience with the GTS on track and, like all Ms, it is a pussycat to drive fast. Super predictable, plenty of warning before letting go, etc. If I were to buy a new track car the F8X would be the only game in town for me

Good input on the GTS... sounds killer.

And agreed on the lack of tonality. I also agree that the modern AMGs sound like horseshit from outside the car. But I also think a modern 'Vette sounds muddy and not good. Camaro, too, doesn't really sound like V8 should.

Now the regular, plane-Jane Coyote.... that's a motor that sounds amazing.

[Transfer]

Interesting to hear everyone's take. Historically we hear only those who can't stand F8x, sold it, went back to E9x, Porsche, MB, etc. I've spent time in it on the track for a half day and was mightily impressed with the F8x in that setting but every time I hear one on the street I just can't get past the sound. I think they look good but the visuals don't tickle me that much either. If I'm spending M4 kind of money, I need to be falling down in love with the car. I have some money but I'm by no means loaded.

If I lived in a dry climate there is no way I would even glance at AWD but with roads wet and probably <60F the majority of the year where I live, 400+ torque through 2 wheels gets fairly frustrating. Summer months are glorious though for RWD but there are only 5 real good months for driving here and even those have a very good chance to bring rain with them.

With the option for AWD (and it won't be your typical AWD if it shares tuning with the M5 and M235/240xi), I will happily take the power boost and compromises of larger size + turbo characteristics. Personally I think the new car will look better as well but that remains to be seen and is of course subjective.

The biggest thing I am not looking forward to is the expected $80k+ price tag of G80 xDrive. Depending on my financials at the time, this alone might put me into an M2Comp in a few years instead.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Interesting to hear everyone's take. Historically we hear only those who can't stand F8x, sold it, went back to E9x, Porsche, MB, etc. I've spent time in it on the track for a half day and was mightily impressed with the F8x in that setting but every time I hear one on the street I just can't get past the sound. I think they look good but the visuals don't tickle me that much either. If I'm spending M4 kind of money, I need to be falling down in love with the car. I have some money but I'm by no means loaded.

If I lived in a dry climate there is no way I would even glance at AWD but with roads wet and probably <60F the majority of the year where I live, 400+ torque through 2 wheels gets fairly frustrating. Summer months are glorious though for RWD but there are only 5 real good months for driving here and even those have a very good chance to bring rain with them.

With the option for AWD (and it won't be your typical AWD if it shares tuning with the M5 and M235/240xi), I will happily take the power boost and compromises of larger size + turbo characteristics. Personally I think the new car will look better as well but that remains to be seen and is of course subjective.

The biggest thing I am not looking forward to is the expected $80k+ price tag of G80 xDrive. Depending on my financials at the time, this alone might put me into an M2Comp in a few years instead.

Good post. I can totally see how the F80 might be frustrating in low-traction situations. However, as noted, the later cars are MUCH better in this regard and the throttle mapping is so precise that you have immense control on output. There is no turbo 'hit' and once you're in the boost (3k rpm and up) the power is ultra predictable and controllable at any throttle angle.

That said, you should test drive a 6MT ZCP car. Put the throttle in Sport+ (trust me on this) and pay close attention to the boost ramp up just below 3k and the amount of control, and power, available above 3k. Even when it rains here I have little to no traction issues because the car is calibrated so well.

[New2Roundel]

I only spent time driving the F8x cars at a BMW M driving event, but it was an excellent experience. The current car is very capable--I was simply blown away how well the car handles the track in stock form. There is nothing that jumped out at me after throwing the car around that I felt really needed to change.

But the reality is, our cars and the F8x car represent the change from analog to digital. The e9x cars just feel really different. The seating is more driver focused in the F8x, which a lot of people prefer. I like sitting a little higher up in the e9x cars. Although more driver focused and more modern in design in the F8x, I couldn't shake the feeling that the interior materials were cheaper/more plasticky than the e9x. I'm not a steering homer, so the feel/lack of feel in the f8x cars really didn't come to mind when I was driving. From within the car, the sound is fine. But, OMG, what a disaster the sound is on the outside of an F8x car. And some will say it doesn't matter, but when I have the windows down in my e9x car, you can bet I hear the brawny exhaust.

So will the G8x cars improve upon the F8x cars? If you believe the magazine hype regarding early drives of the G2x, then that bodes really well for the M3. I suspect that the sweet spot like it was the e9x and F8x will be with the inevitable competition package. It just baffles me that the regular series I6 motors from BMW have a very decent exhaust note. But the motorsports tweaked motors sound downright terrible. I've always wondered why this seems to be the issue. Everyone else can make a performance engine that sounds better than the regular series motors.

If you're interested in the latest and greatest, I'm sure the G8x will be excellent. Definitely worth looking into. But at the same time, there is just something both classic and awesome about the S65, even as more modern versions of the M3 turn better numbers and potentially even drive better.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I only spent time driving the F8x cars at a BMW M driving event, but it was an excellent experience. The current car is very capable--I was simply blown away how well the car handles the track in stock form. There is nothing that jumped out at me after throwing the car around that I felt really needed to change.

But the reality is, our cars and the F8x car represent the change from analog to digital. The e9x cars just feel really different. The seating is more driver focused in the F8x, which a lot of people prefer. I like sitting a little higher up in the e9x cars. Although more driver focused and more modern in design in the F8x, I couldn't shake the feeling that the interior materials were cheaper/more plasticky than the e9x. I'm not a steering homer, so the feel/lack of feel in the f8x cars really didn't come to mind when I was driving. From within the car, the sound is fine. But, OMG, what a disaster the sound is on the outside of an F8x car. And some will say it doesn't matter, but when I have the windows down in my e9x car, you can bet I hear the brawny exhaust.

So will the G8x cars improve upon the F8x cars? If you believe the magazine hype regarding early drives of the G2x, then that bodes really well for the M3. I suspect that the sweet spot like it was the e9x and F8x will be with the inevitable competition package. It just baffles me that the regular series I6 motors from BMW have a very decent exhaust note. But the motorsports tweaked motors sound downright terrible. I've always wondered why this seems to be the issue. Everyone else can make a performance engine that sounds better than the regular series motors.

If you're interested in the latest and greatest, I'm sure the G8x will be excellent. Definitely worth looking into. But at the same time, there is just something both classic and awesome about the S65, even as more modern versions of the M3 turn better numbers and potentially even drive better.

Excellent post.

Agreed that the seating position in the F8X is much more driver oriented - it is a marked difference from the E46/E9X whether good or bad.

Agreed that the interior felt a little better built in the E9X, but only slightly. I also liked the no nonsense "all business" simplicity. The F8X interior is a bit too blingy if I'm honest. That said, both interiors feel cheaper and rattle more than the E46 - I think that was the pinnacle of interior robustness.

Finally, regarding the sound of the motorsports engines - the offensive farting sound is due to the anti-lag system. When the boost builds in the manifold and throttle is relaxed, the valves remain open (the S55 is valvetronic so throttle = valve lift) and let the excess boost bleed through the exhaust system keeping the turbos spooled. It sounds horrible but it's pretty trick functionality. Solid case of function over form here. I'm wondering if this will change with the S58 motor.

Edit - the burbles are synthetic. Some like'em some don't. I don't (probably would if I was 10 years younger but they're very "showy"). Tuners can easily disable them.

[Richbot]

The smallest M car has always been the most fun drive. Whether you’re willing to live with the downsides is a life choice

The 1M came along, and even taken out of the oven 40 minutes early, it was still a damn hoot

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

But the reality is, our cars and the F8x car represent the change from analog to digital. The e9x cars just feel really different...

...It just baffles me that the regular series I6 motors from BMW have a very decent exhaust note. But the motorsports tweaked motors sound downright terrible. I've always wondered why this seems to be the issue. Everyone else can make a performance engine that sounds better than the regular series motors.

If you're interested in the latest and greatest, I'm sure the G8x will be excellent. Definitely worth looking into. But at the same time, there is just something both classic and awesome about the S65, even as more modern versions of the M3 turn better numbers and potentially even drive better.

Definitely agree. All cars are now control and power via electrons which improves upon the efficiency and function but takes out a large piece of the soul in our cars. There will never be analog cars again unless you're spending >$150k. So now it's deciding at what point do we give in and move into the digital car world. I don't have room for 3 cars otherwise I'd keep my E92 for the long haul but I'm sure I'll want a different DD+SUV combo within a couple years.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Finally, regarding the sound of the motorsports engines - the offensive farting sound is due to the anti-lag system. When the boost builds in the manifold and throttle is relaxed, the valves remain open (the S55 is valvetronic so throttle = valve lift) and let the excess boost bleed through the exhaust system keeping the turbos spooled. It sounds horrible but it's pretty trick functionality. Solid case of function over form here. I'm wondering if this will change with the S58 motor.

That's really interesting info that I was not aware of. I don't think I've come across a lot of info on the anti-lag tech. I have always been impressed with the I6 turbo engines that I've driven over the years. They're excellent to bomb around in---though I've never lived with one of these engines either.

Could you comment on the offense noise of the S55 during acceleration? That's really what I'm offended about most with that engine. From a stop, the regular series engines have a deeper, more tuned sound to them. The S55 is just noise and rasp. And when people put aftermarket exhausts on their F8x cars, it's awful. Just for the record, although the S65 sounds better in comparison, as a V8, it's pretty underwhelming. Just about any performance oriented V8 sounds better. I'll take the exhaust noise of my FCA 392 at high rpms all day vs the S65. This criticism extends to the S54 as well, IMO. Why BMW, why do you do this to an otherwise brilliant to drive vehicle!

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Definitely agree. All cars are now control and power via electrons which improves upon the efficiency and function but takes out a large piece of the soul in our cars. There will never be analog cars again unless you're spending >$150k. So now it's deciding at what point do we give in and move into the digital car world. I don't have room for 3 cars otherwise I'd keep my E92 for the long haul but I'm sure I'll want a different DD+SUV combo within a couple years.

Exactamundo. For me it was about midpoint of 2018. Been driving e36/46/90 M3s for 17 years straight prior to the F80.

I have a 2 car garage that holds 2 cars (crazy, I know), and an HD pickup on the street. I do not need/want/care to deal with any more vehicles than that. One car is mine and the other is my wife's - we both want to drive M3s. The truck is for the nasty stuff.

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

That's really interesting info that I was not aware of. I don't think I've come across a lot of info on the anti-lag tech. I have always been impressed with the I6 turbo engines that I've driven over the years. They're excellent to bomb around in---though I've never lived with one of these engines either.

Could you comment on the offense noise of the S55 during acceleration? That's really what I'm offended about most with that engine. From a stop, the regular series engines have a deeper, more tuned sound to them. The S55 is just noise and rasp. And when people put aftermarket exhausts on their F8x cars, it's awful. Just for the record, although the S65 sounds better in comparison, as a V8, it's pretty underwhelming. Just about any performance oriented V8 sounds better. I'll take the exhaust noise of my FCA 392 at high rpms all day vs the S65. This criticism extends to the S54 as well, IMO. Why BMW, why do you do this to an otherwise brilliant to drive vehicle!

Lol, totally. The E46M is a very awkward sounding vehicle from outside the car. Inside it's awesome - very visceral and mechanical.

I also agree that most F8Xs with exhaust sound like shit because everyone goes overboard. The factory ZCP and CS cars sound really quite good from inside the cabin. None of that awkwardness from outside carries inside. It's got some tone, some depth and a little midrange shriek that suites the car's aggressive/sharp character well.

The S55 is a total hooligan street bombster - mega punch all the time. It's basically got 2 modes - before boost and in boost and this happens just before 3k rpm... once you're in the boost it's game time. Just 1/4 throttle in any gear and you're so far ahead of traffic it's silly. Go full throttle and you should be focused and paying attention but wow is this thing FAST. Any time, any place, any rpm (3k+), every single throttle tip in - it rips, hard. Extremely fun.

It isn't perfect though. I have only a single complaint about it and it's not a small one - while the motor is literally and truly lag-free in any part throttle situation (at or above 3krpm), it can be a bit laggy if you *snap* open the throttle. This makes it not quite as fulfilling as the S65 when you're really really in the heat of the moment - but in all other situations it's sublime. It responds well to smooth, quick roll-ons... never a full WOT snap open.

[MrGatsby]

Will it redeem the M3? In one word, no.

Each model M3 is vastly different from its predecessor. Once a simple drivers car turned into a piece of engineering marvel, for better or for worse. As generations pass, cars evolve. Comparing any M3 to its late model will surely disappoint the true enthusiast.

Take a look back at the E46 forums circa 2008. When the E92 came out, people were disgusted that BMW replaced the tried and true inline 6 with a gawdy V8. The steering was numb, the brakes bad, and the look was too bubbly. There was a whole mess of enthusiasts outraged that BMW "ruined the M3."

Now, those same people are basking in the glory of said V8, and pissed off about the turbo inline 6 in its current form.

I don't think this new generation, the G80, will redeem the M3; rather it will force us to take a hard look at the F80 and perhaps realize it was a far purer car than we now know. This is the redemption I see forthcoming. As each generation passes, these cars will get faster, safer, and more advanced. With that, we lose touch with some of what makes these cars so great: the purity.

It's surprising to me that this thread is comprised of lap times, wheelbase figures, torque ratings, etc. This is not what gives the M3 its redeeming qualities. It's all about the feel, and until we drive the G80, there's really no way to tell.

[Montaver]

The E9X leans more towards a luxury GT car than out and out sports car in my opinion. Having grown up driving lightweight euro hatches such as the Peugeot 306, the E9x doesn't feel that raw to me at all. My E46 330i was considerably more 'raw' and it was just a cooking model.

After nearly 2 years and around 10K miles in my e9x as much as I love it, I think its missing a level of focus and ferocity to really make it a legendary car. It feels connected, but somewhat muted at the same time. The F8x has the ferocity and focus, but it's a little charmless and 'digital'. Ultimately it depends what your looking for but I am still of the mind that Porsche does it better than anyone. Short of a Huracan Performante, to my ears a flat 6 always sounds better than a cross plane V8. M cars achilles heel used to be brakes, now its damping. Porsche does a much more sophisticated job who it comes to suspension, but thats reflected in the price.

Unless the G80 really drops some serious budget on the suspension I really don't think it will be much of a step over the F80 chassis wise. Engine wise the S58 may be significantly better, maybe not. Like I sad in my previous post, I think the F80 woo become more appreciated over time.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MrGatsby

Will it redeem the M3? In one word, no.
.

I don't think there is any need to redeem the M3. Every generation is the best among its peers for track use, which is what matters.

[Richbot]

Yep and every generation is different and fun in its own way. I think the danger is that the G80 starts to take the Porsche route of formulaic evolution rather than each model having a new personality. M5 is already dangerously close to this their last trick in the bag was giving it a big fat front tire and AWD, the only direction to go now is lightweighting + electrification to hold the line on overall vehicle weight

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by M3Post

How so?

The polar moment of inertia for the E92 M3 is much closer to the polar moment of inertia of the M2C than the G80. It's why I stated the below with regard to the OP's opening thread question:


- Wheelbase of an M2 = 106in
- Wheelbase of an E92 M3 = 108.7in
- Wheelbase of an F80 M3 = 110.7in
- Wheelbase of an G80 M3 = ~112.2in

I'm talking overall length which all adds weight...not to mention that the E92 is and will be the heaviest M3 ever.... Which affects POI. My point was simply that dismissing a car on a singular variable, one that you cannot precisely measure at that, is ridiculous. In fact, given the likely significant weight delta between the E92 and the G80 and creative weight centralization, the G80 could even have a lower POI....there's just flat no way for you to know. Might be more, less or a wash.

Even IF the G80 has a larger POI, what if the chassis/steering/suspension are so good that it actually changes direction much easier/quicker? You'll still be in denial spewing math/theory.

Get real dude. If a car is fun to drive it's fun to drive.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

In fact, given the likely significant weight delta between the E92 and the G80 a.

I don't think that will be the case, especially if it goes AWD.

My E92 is not a full stripper and weighs 3600 with a full tank.

Going by F80 weights, the lightest one I've seen weighed is 3530 with a full tank of fuel for a full stripper.

I have $50 that says we won't see AWD G80s under 3600 with a full tank. Too much standard equipment, too large, stupid all-wheel-shit drive...

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't think that will be the case, especially if it goes AWD.

My E92 is not a full stripper and weighs 3600 with a full tank.

Going by F80 weights, the lightest one I've seen weighed is 3530 with a full tank of fuel for a full stripper.

I have $50 that says we won't see AWD G80s under 3600 with a full tank. Too much standard equipment, too large, stupid all-wheel-shit drive...

Perhaps. But the "pure" will be 6spd and RWD. Get one lightly optioned and it may be fairly light.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Perhaps. But the "pure" will be 6spd and RWD. Get one lightly optioned and it may be fairly light.

I'm still hoping this talk of AWD is fantasy...

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm still hoping this talk of AWD is fantasy...

From what I've read it will be optional.

AWD = more horsepower, DCT only
RWD = slightly less power, 6MT or DCT

I know which one I want.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

From what I've read it will be optional.

AWD = more horsepower, DCT only
RWD = slightly less power, 6MT or DCT

I know which one I want.

I can't see AWD being DCT... the DCT tranny doesn't have a front output shaft.

But if the ZCP/CS/GTS models are AWD only it will make it hard to choose the manual for the track as it won't be the happy situation you have now where anyone can retrofit GTS goodies (Diff, tranny, dsc)

For street use it is clear, for track use they will force my hand