Track alignment suggestions

[M eyedoc]

Sorry if this hijacks the thread but question for you hive. Does anyone run more than -3.5? Had mine aligned with full negative (Vorshlag) and shop measured -4.5 with zero toe. Won't be able to test until next weekend. Thoughts?

[admranger]

Originally Posted by M eyedoc

Sorry if this hijacks the thread but question for you hive. Does anyone run more than -3.5? Had mine aligned with full negative (Vorshlag) and shop measured -4.5 with zero toe. Won't be able to test until next weekend. Thoughts?

I don’t think the e9x chassis needs that much camber, but I’d need to look at tire temp data before I dismiss it.

[Lozza47]

Just to add to this,
I’ve recently been running 3 degrees neg camber front and 2.25 degrees neg camber rear for around 3000kms + 3 track days and tire wear has been very good on 200TW tyres.
Ideally I’d want to run a little more in the front maybe 3.5-4 degrees for perfect track wear but I felt this was the most aggressive compromise.

In regards to toe out on the front, I tried this recently after 10+ track days running zero and didn’t like it tbh. It was much more eager to turn in but in turn also very nervous and unstable at speed on the front, probably good if you’re at a very tight track but most of the tracks near me have some pretty long straights and sweepers. I changed back to zero toe at front.

The M3 chassis is so well balanced that even a small 1/16th of a toe change- you can feel if you’ve had experience with the car.

The other thing to mention as well, you will lose an ever so slight bit of acceleration with front toe out, think of it like extra grip/drag on the front axle.

[gmx]

Anyone explore difference in alignments with the F8x uprights but all E9x arms?

[ashutoshkotha]

Switched back to stock alignment after running two track days on PS4S. I felt the front was sliding a lot and couldn't really figure out if it was my entry speed, technique or the tires that were giving up.

Going to start the year next weekend with a 200TW(RE71RS) tires being the only change. Looking forward to build up from there and work on the alignment as needed.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

Switched back to stock alignment after running two track days on PS4S. I felt the front was sliding a lot and couldn't really figure out if it was my entry speed, technique or the tires that were giving up.

Going to start the year next weekend with a 200TW(RE71RS) tires being the only change. Looking forward to build up from there and work on the alignment as needed.

What was your alignment? What do you mean by front was sliding? Mid corner / exit?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

Switched back to stock alignment after running two track days on PS4S. I felt the front was sliding a lot and couldn't really figure out if it was my entry speed, technique or the tires that were giving up.

Going to start the year next weekend with a 200TW(RE71RS) tires being the only change. Looking forward to build up from there and work on the alignment as needed.

If you're running stock alignment (around -1* front camber) with the RE71RS, be careful. Good chance you burn through the outsides if you're pushing it in a single day.

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

Total toe.
Yes, .398 total degrees equals 1/8" total.
The alignment machine at the local Goodyear has inches, millimeters and degrees, but you have to choose before you start.

Attached is a string alignment chart that shows inches and degrees.

Also attached is my alignment on the daily setting.
With the front camber at -1.9 degrees, total toe is .27 IN.
With everything locked down, I changed the front camber to -3.0 degrees, and the total toe moved to .40 degrees OUT.

Originally Posted by DRLane

What was your alignment? What do you mean by front was sliding? Mid corner / exit?

I was using this. It felt like I was loosing grip mid corner. I'm on stock EDC with Swift lowering springs.

Do you think I should keep the alignment specs the same and do a day with new tires?

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by tsk94

If you're running stock alignment (around -1* front camber) with the RE71RS, be careful. Good chance you burn through the outsides if you're pushing it in a single day.

I was worried about this. This was the main reason I was trying some alignment specs on PS4S before I moved to 200TW. But this created more confusion. I'm on stock EDC & Swift lowering springs.

At this point I felt completely lost and I thought I'd revert back to stock before making further changes. Any thoughts on what I could do?

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

I was worried about this. This was the main reason I was trying some alignment specs on PS4S before I moved to 200TW. But this created more confusion. I'm on stock EDC & Swift lowering springs.

At this point I felt completely lost and I thought I'd revert back to stock before making further changes. Any thoughts on what I could do?

not much you can do until you get camber plates.

you'll just need to be more mindful of your tires every session.

as a beginner jumping to RE71RS from PS4S is a huge leap.... just saying. you'll end up relearning how to drive more than actually focusing on driving.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

I was using this. It felt like I was loosing grip mid corner. I'm on stock EDC with Swift lowering springs.

Do you think I should keep the alignment specs the same and do a day with new tires?

You’re at -3° camber with slight toe out as the track alignment? Nothing wrong per se. I’d keep that.

And the slide is mid corner?

I think you’re being impatient and getting back to throttle early and inducing understeer push. Which results in you likely pulling harder with the wheel and car doing less but dragging tires.


Is this generally on the longer corners? Might examine the line, if you’re at throttle before apex, and most importantly where are you pointing at apex? Meaning is the car fully rotated for the exit?

Do you capture any data? A simple speed trace would likely tell you a lot.

If you’re going out with new tires this behavior of pushing/dragging will surely roast them in no time.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

You’re at -3° camber with slight toe out as the track alignment? Nothing wrong per se. I’d keep that.

And the slide is mid corner?

I think you’re being impatient and getting back to throttle early and inducing understeer push. Which results in you likely pulling harder with the wheel and car doing less but dragging tires.


Is this generally on the longer corners? Might examine the line, if you’re at throttle before apex, and most importantly where are you pointing at apex? Meaning is the car fully rotated for the exit?

Do you capture any data? A simple speed trace would likely tell you a lot.

If you’re going out with new tires this behavior of pushing/dragging will surely roast them in no time.

i dont think he has -3 camber with oem suspension and swifts. think he has oem top hats / camber plate still.

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by DRLane

You’re at -3° camber with slight toe out as the track alignment? Nothing wrong per se. I’d keep that.

And the slide is mid corner?

I think you’re being impatient and getting back to throttle early and inducing understeer push. Which results in you likely pulling harder with the wheel and car doing less but dragging tires.


Is this generally on the longer corners? Might examine the line, if you’re at throttle before apex, and most importantly where are you pointing at apex? Meaning is the car fully rotated for the exit?

Do you capture any data? A simple speed trace would likely tell you a lot.

If you’re going out with new tires this behavior of pushing/dragging will surely roast them in no time.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Lot of things makes sense when reading though your questions. So, to start with I'm probably not at -3 Camber. Unfortunately I do not have any data captured. I was using the Hotlap App but it did not work the first two session so I gave up. Only thing I have are the lap times from the transponder.

All this is at Chuckwalla CW. I was consistently at 2:08 and wasn't improving.

This makes a lot of sense when I read it, I was probably trying to get on the throttle early and trying to drag it out without the rotation done. I think I'm doing these two things wrong:
- Getting early on the throttle to correct the understeer and point to Apex
- Carrying too much speed into the corner and not being able to manage that though the Apex.

I will try and improve on this next weekend.

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

not much you can do until you get camber plates.

you'll just need to be more mindful of your tires every session.

as a beginner jumping to RE71RS from PS4S is a huge leap.... just saying. you'll end up relearning how to drive more than actually focusing on driving.

Thank you Understood.

Yes, It's definitely a huge leap. I felt PS4S were holding me back for some reason in terms of braking, grip levels etc. I might be totally wrong here. There are too many factors to even figure out what's going wrong including my driving technique.

I wanted to dial in a few things as a standard setup and start this year from there. Hoping to learn more consistently that way.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

Thank you Understood.

Yes, It's definitely a huge leap. I felt PS4S were holding me back for some reason in terms of braking, grip levels etc. I might be totally wrong here. There are too many factors to even figure out what's going wrong including my driving technique.

I wanted to dial in a few things as a standard setup and start this year from there. Hoping to learn more consistently that way.

nah PS4S aren't really a track tire, but those tires also need to be using pretty insane tire pressure as well as they are rounded sidewall.

especially on our heavy car in oem format. you're looking at like 37psi cold 42psi hot?

also always MDM off..

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

nah PS4S aren't really a track tire, but those tires also need to be using pretty insane tire pressure as well as they are rounded sidewall.

especially on our heavy car in oem format. you're looking at like 37psi cold 42psi hot?

also always MDM off..

Got it. I was always trying to be at 35/36psi hot.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

Got it. I was always trying to be at 35/36psi hot.

Those are the ideal hot pressures - 1 psi per 100 lbs of weight is good starting point. Don’t fall into the running low pressures when just starting out, instead give yourself a cool down lap or two. If you go super low, it’s likely with the lack of negative camber you’ll roll the corners and cause more premature wear. Just take a cool down lap from time to time. It’s actually lovely practice to see if you can run a lap without the brakes. When you’re not coming as fast into a corner you’ll find you actually go through the corner at a higher min speed. Because you’re not panicking and over slowing for entry. And then you don’t have to get on the gas as early because you over slowed. And thus some of your understeer will be resolved . Try it you’ll be surprised.

Otherwise best to get an app, a more sensitive gps, and capture data / video. Work with online coach (Blaze is great) or better in car instruction.

Careful with taking internet guidance on running traction control “mdm” etc on/off. That’s a personal decision and you alone should make it. Just note MDM can impact brake life as it’s constantly running to save you.

Good luck

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Those are the ideal hot pressures - 1 psi per 100 lbs of weight is good starting point. Don’t fall into the running low pressures when just starting out, instead give yourself a cool down lap or two. If you go super low, it’s likely with the lack of negative camber you’ll roll the corners and cause more premature wear. Just take a cool down lap from time to time. It’s actually lovely practice to see if you can run a lap without the brakes. When you’re not coming as fast into a corner you’ll find you actually go through the corner at a higher min speed. Because you’re not panicking and over slowing for entry. And then you don’t have to get on the gas as early because you over slowed. And thus some of your understeer will be resolved . Try it you’ll be surprised.

Otherwise best to get an app, a more sensitive gps, and capture data / video. Work with online coach (Blaze is great) or better in car instruction.

Careful with taking internet guidance on running traction control “mdm” etc on/off. That’s a personal decision and you alone should make it. Just note MDM can impact brake life as it’s constantly running to save you.

Good luck

fight me lane i track with DSC on no MDM. :^)

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

fight me lane i track with DSC on no MDM. :^)

I’m saying to each their own I know you’re a strong bowler when the bumpers are deployed.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I’m saying to each their own I know you’re a strong bowler when the bumpers are deployed.

all cars are bowing pins on track.

i did start with MDM though nothing wrong with it.

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Those are the ideal hot pressures - 1 psi per 100 lbs of weight is good starting point. Don’t fall into the running low pressures when just starting out, instead give yourself a cool down lap or two. If you go super low, it’s likely with the lack of negative camber you’ll roll the corners and cause more premature wear. Just take a cool down lap from time to time. It’s actually lovely practice to see if you can run a lap without the brakes. When you’re not coming as fast into a corner you’ll find you actually go through the corner at a higher min speed. Because you’re not panicking and over slowing for entry. And then you don’t have to get on the gas as early because you over slowed. And thus some of your understeer will be resolved . Try it you’ll be surprised.

Otherwise best to get an app, a more sensitive gps, and capture data / video. Work with online coach (Blaze is great) or better in car instruction.

Careful with taking internet guidance on running traction control “mdm” etc on/off. That’s a personal decision and you alone should make it. Just note MDM can impact brake life as it’s constantly running to save you.

Good luck

First of of all thanks a ton for the inputs. I will definitely try the cool down lap next time around. Tire pressures were one on the main things I was trying to learn the last two track days experimenting with different tire pressures. 1PSI/100lbs is something new I've learnt today. I'll start there for the new 200TW tires coming track day.

Going forward I'm always going to start recording laps and get some kind of instructions. it is super hard to explain without a reference lap.

On the MDM. Yes, going to be careful there. I've been trying different things on/off. Also, reading a lot inputs on what effects the braking and what numbs down the cornering speeds etc.