Track forum general chit chat.

[roastbeef]

i'm a little bit skeptical of those digital coaching devices. not solo dL data... digital coaches. they seem rather one dimensional. although they may help in some areas, i think their lifespan of usability before you plateau is limited. i'd rather pay (and this is my future plan) a professional to coach me and educate me in data analysis and answer my dumb questions and spoon feed it to me.

thats just my shallow opinion. i'd be curious to hear from a user that has used one for some time and believes it is still helping them progress.

[Ximian]

It seems like it calculates an ideal time through a corner and if you're below that, it tells you that there's more grip or to brake better. I wouldn't pay so much for it.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i'm a little bit skeptical of those digital coaching devices. not solo dL data... digital coaches. they seem rather one dimensional. although they may help in some areas, i think their lifespan of usability before you plateau is limited. i'd rather pay (and this is my future plan) a professional to coach me and educate me in data analysis and answer my dumb questions and spoon feed it to me.

thats just my shallow opinion. i'd be curious to hear from a user that has used one for some time and believes it is still helping them progress.

There's no substitute for pro coaching. I hired one this summer and we officially broke two track records- one at a track I had never been to-and had a faster unofficial time at a 3rd track. For that to work you do want DL w/Smartycam (or VBox) so you can review video w/data overlay at the track.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ximian

It seems like it calculates an ideal time through a corner and if you're below that, it tells you that there's more grip or to brake better. I wouldn't pay so much for it.

My interpretation of it was that it's looking at how smooth you are with the steering, gas, and brakes. I don't really understand how it could understand if you are/aren't at the limit of traction unless it's able to detect understeer and oversteer?

For the data geeks, I think it's looking at the derivative of your input channels (something I already graph).

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

My interpretation of it was that it's looking at how smooth you are with the steering, gas, and brakes. I don't really understand how it could understand if you are/aren't at the limit of traction unless it's able to detect understeer and oversteer?

For the data geeks, I think it's looking at the derivative of your input channels (something I already graph).

It has something like 12 accelerometers and some pretty advanced algorithm so it basically learns your cars capabilities and can give feedback on where you're at with respect to those capabilities in any given corner or braking zone. That beings said, I just was not able to watch lights while driving.

[roastbeef]

That's why I'm skeptical. It's telling you there is more to do. So if you don't know what to do, you're guessing.
If you have someone show or tell you what to do, I feel like you begin on a higher step.

I know a person coaching compared to this is apples to oranges, but I don't see how training with this device doesn't lead to a plateau in driver development.

[M3 Number 86]

Tim macdude357 has this. Wonder what his thoughts are on it?

[dogbone]

I watched most of the 56 minute video on the Apex Pro YouTube channel where the Apex Pro guy does analysis to a set of data.

As you guys know, I've been staring at AIM data for years.

Here's my take: When sitting at the iPad looking at data, the Apex Pro forces you to infer a lot of stuff about your driving because it only has the GPS/accelerometer to rely on----no CAN data. If you watch the video, the guy is saying, "he MIGHT be doing this here...." or "he MAY HAVE done such and such there....." You have to make guesses as to what was happening in the car.

An AIM Solo 2 DL tied into a CAN bus removes ALL of that guesswork and it tells you EXACTLY what you were doing with the brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, etc.

Another issue I see is: the Apex Pro algorithm needs to learn the limits of grip of the tires by watching you drive a bunch of laps. Well----what if you don't drive to the grip limit of the tires? How can the device possibly learn the grip limit if you never go there? You don't need to know YOUR limit----you're already driving that!! You would need a pro driver to jump in your car and push it to the limit so the device can really learn. Then, you would truly know the limits and how far you are from them. Problem is, there's never a pro driver around when you need one.....And do you really want a pro mashing on your car? In HPDE traffic?.....

So, on the one hand, you have to be a good enough driver to take the tires to the limit in every corner so the device can see the limits. But, if you're that good of a driver, I'm going to guess that you want more direct data, instead of having to infer everything from a speed chart. So, I suspect people out grow the device fairly quickly.....And ThunderMoose mentioned they are up for sale all the time.

The third funky thing I see: You should not be staring at a device while driving. As ThunderMoose mentioned, when he's addressing corners, he's looking down track. THAT'S where your eyes should be. Trying to see where the red dots are and where the green dots are and how many clear dots are showing while you're in the middle of braking or turning......yeah, not such a great idea. And those lights move pretty quick, so I suspect it's easy to miss what they're telling you. And there's nothing the device can fix in THAT moment. It's too late at that point. You would have to try to live up to the device on the next lap. I would argue that a novice driver cannot make those kinds of changes very easily. I think CAN bus data tied to GPS locations is IMPOSSIBLE to beat when it comes to data analysis. You sit in the pits, download the data and analyze it with a clear mind when you can focus on it.

In my opinion, if you have a modern production car like an E9x M3 that offers full data via the CAN bus, then a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into CAN is the way to go. Yes, the learning curve is steep on the AIM Analysis software and the old Windows interface can make you roll your eyes. But there's gobs of useful data in there to look at. If an AIM Solo 2 DL is too much money, I suggest buying a used original AIM Solo DL. It is still an excellent piece of hardware. It tracks the same amount of CAN channels as the new device.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I watched most of the 56 minute video on the Apex Pro YouTube channel where the Apex Pro guy does analysis to a set of data.

As you guys know, I've been staring at AIM data for years.

Here's my take: When sitting at the iPad looking at data, the Apex Pro forces you to infer a lot of stuff about your driving because it only has the GPS/accelerometer to rely on----no CAN data. If you watch the video, the guy is saying, "he MIGHT be doing this here...." or "he MAY HAVE done such and such there....." You have to make guesses as to what was happening in the car.

An AIM Solo 2 DL tied into a CAN bus removes ALL of that guesswork and it tells you EXACTLY what you were doing with the brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, etc.

Another issue I see is: the Apex Pro algorithm needs to learn the limits of grip of the tires by watching you drive a bunch of laps. Well----what if you don't drive to the grip limit of the tires? How can the device possibly learn the grip limit if you never go there? You don't need to know YOUR limit----you're already driving that!! You would need a pro driver to jump in your car and push it to the limit so the device can really learn. Then, you would truly know the limits and how far you are from them. Problem is, there's never a pro driver around when you need one.....And do you really want a pro mashing on your car? In HPDE traffic?.....

So, on the one hand, you have to be a good enough driver to take the tires to the limit in every corner so the device can see the limits. But, if you're that good of a driver, I'm going to guess that you want more direct data, instead of having to infer everything from a speed chart. So, I suspect people out grow the device fairly quickly.....And ThunderMoose mentioned they are up for sale all the time.

The third funky thing I see: You should not be staring at a device while driving. As ThunderMoose mentioned, when he's addressing corners, he's looking down track. THAT'S where your eyes should be. Trying to see where the red dots are and where the green dots are and how many clear dots are showing while you're in the middle of braking or turning......yeah, not such a great idea. And those lights move pretty quick, so I suspect it's easy to miss what they're telling you. And there's nothing the device can fix in THAT moment. It's too late at that point. You would have to try to live up to the device on the next lap. I would argue that a novice driver cannot make those kinds of changes very easily. I think CAN bus data tied to GPS locations is IMPOSSIBLE to beat when it comes to data analysis. You sit in the pits, download the data and analyze it with a clear mind when you can focus on it.

In my opinion, if you have a modern production car like an E9x M3 that offers full data via the CAN bus, then a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into CAN is the way to go. Yes, the learning curve is steep on the AIM Analysis software and the old Windows inference can make you roll your eyes. But there's gobs of useful data in there to look at. If an AIM Solo 2 DL is too much money, I suggest buying a used original AIM Solo DL. It is still an excellent piece of hardware. It tracks the same amount of CAN channels as the new device.

This

But pls buy my apex when I put it up for sale

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Tim macdude357 has this. Wonder what his thoughts are on it?

I've used one for almost a year. I like it for what it is. At one end of the spectrum, you have the AIM and all the data that gets you. At the other end, you have something like Harry's Lap Timer which gives you very basic data. If you love digging into the detailed data, then something like AIM is best. If you want lap times and maybe some G force data, HLT works fine. I wanted more than HLT but I knew I would never put the time and effort in to properly use AIM. I think that that Apex Pro is a good in-between tool; the amount of effort is closer to HLT but the benefit is closer to AIM, so it's a good bang for the effort type tool.

Yes, if you are not near the limit, it won't really help since you have to go over the limit at some point; however, that could be done via engaging the ABS during braking which is something even newer drivers can do.

I don't pay too much attention to it when I'm at the track unless it's a long turn like sweeper at Buttonwillow. The app gives a lot of detail when you review the data. In the data analysis view, you get a heat map of the track and you can click anywhere on the track and it will show you how much of the total traction you are using or how fast you are going, how many lateral/vertical Gs you are pulling.

Yes, you have to do some thinking on your own, it will only tell you if you are not using all the available traction, not necessarily what you need to do to use that traction; however, it's not rocket science. If you combine that with video, it's pretty easy to tell if it's something like taking too late of an apex, or not getting to full throttle soon enough.

Where it really shines is new tracks or different conditions like rain. It also helps with very fast/dangerous turns like Big Willow 8-9 or Auto Club 1-2 where I'm really not comfortable exceeding the limit and then trying to catch the car at 120+. I can slowly ramp up the speed until maybe there is only one red light left.

In summary, I'm happy that I bought it and it's still helpful after a year of using it (this is my third year of tracking my car, averaging about 20 track days per year). I have an extra mount if you happen to run into me at the track, I'm happy to let you try it out.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I watched most of the 56 minute video on the Apex Pro YouTube channel where the Apex Pro guy does analysis to a set of data.

As you guys know, I've been staring at AIM data for years.

Here's my take: When sitting at the iPad looking at data, the Apex Pro forces you to infer a lot of stuff about your driving because it only has the GPS/accelerometer to rely on----no CAN data. If you watch the video, the guy is saying, "he MIGHT be doing this here...." or "he MAY HAVE done such and such there....." You have to make guesses as to what was happening in the car.

An AIM Solo 2 DL tied into a CAN bus removes ALL of that guesswork and it tells you EXACTLY what you were doing with the brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, etc.

Another issue I see is: the Apex Pro algorithm needs to learn the limits of grip of the tires by watching you drive a bunch of laps. Well----what if you don't drive to the grip limit of the tires? How can the device possibly learn the grip limit if you never go there? You don't need to know YOUR limit----you're already driving that!! You would need a pro driver to jump in your car and push it to the limit so the device can really learn. Then, you would truly know the limits and how far you are from them. Problem is, there's never a pro driver around when you need one.....And do you really want a pro mashing on your car? In HPDE traffic?.....

So, on the one hand, you have to be a good enough driver to take the tires to the limit in every corner so the device can see the limits. But, if you're that good of a driver, I'm going to guess that you want more direct data, instead of having to infer everything from a speed chart. So, I suspect people out grow the device fairly quickly.....And ThunderMoose mentioned they are up for sale all the time.

The third funky thing I see: You should not be staring at a device while driving. As ThunderMoose mentioned, when he's addressing corners, he's looking down track. THAT'S where your eyes should be. Trying to see where the red dots are and where the green dots are and how many clear dots are showing while you're in the middle of braking or turning......yeah, not such a great idea. And those lights move pretty quick, so I suspect it's easy to miss what they're telling you. And there's nothing the device can fix in THAT moment. It's too late at that point. You would have to try to live up to the device on the next lap. I would argue that a novice driver cannot make those kinds of changes very easily. I think CAN bus data tied to GPS locations is IMPOSSIBLE to beat when it comes to data analysis. You sit in the pits, download the data and analyze it with a clear mind when you can focus on it.

In my opinion, if you have a modern production car like an E9x M3 that offers full data via the CAN bus, then a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into CAN is the way to go. Yes, the learning curve is steep on the AIM Analysis software and the old Windows interface can make you roll your eyes. But there's gobs of useful data in there to look at. If an AIM Solo 2 DL is too much money, I suggest buying a used original AIM Solo DL. It is still an excellent piece of hardware. It tracks the same amount of CAN channels as the new device.

CAN is best. When we do group data analysis webinars, we can tell what everyone is doing exactly different (who gets on gas, who mashes the brakes the hardest, who is jiggling the wheel the most, who's oil is running hotter, etc) except one guy Alex. We're just guessing what he's doing based on gps speed. He finally got a DL. lol

AriuSen 50k or whatever it is in mods but didn't want to buy a $500 DL.

[kyippee]

Doing my first "time trial" entry on 12/30/2018 at Laguna Seca in the Speed SF Challenge, S3 class. Just two points away from S2, so I think it's a fair build I have now! PB in the past was 1:44.89 on stock EDC suspension with just Dinan front sway bar & RE71R so I'm very excited to see what I can do with JRZ RS One, all the goodies, and NT01. Laguna Seca is where I'm most comfortable, so it felt like the right time to enter.

Super excited, anybody else going? I already know I want better seats, Recaro Sportster CS is on my to-do list, need to figure out all the accessories i.e. brackets/sliders to properly fit and align with steering wheel. Read some rough stories of MS mounts not working right. Any tips on seats? Not planning to do roll cage at the moment, thus the more street/3-point friendly setup.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Doing my first "time trial" entry on 12/30/2018 at Laguna Seca in the Speed SF Challenge, S3 class. Just two points away from S2, so I think it's a fair build I have now! PB in the past was 1:44.89 on stock EDC suspension with just Dinan front sway bar & RE71R so I'm very excited to see what I can do with JRZ RS One, all the goodies, and NT01. Laguna Seca is where I'm most comfortable, so it felt like the right time to enter.

Super excited, anybody else going? I already know I want better seats, Recaro Sportster CS is on my to-do list, need to figure out all the accessories i.e. brackets/sliders to properly fit and align with steering wheel. Read some rough stories of MS mounts not working right. Any tips on seats? Not planning to do roll cage at the moment, thus the more street/3-point friendly setup.

Sportster doesn't have rails?

Got this in the mail for free. Dialedwatchco

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Sportster doesn't have rails?

Got this in the mail for free. Dialedwatchco

But I’d rock it

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by jktx

But I'd rock it

[roastbeef]

Sponsors? You made it bro.

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Sportster doesn't have rails?

Got this in the mail for free. Dialedwatchco

I don't know.. I read somewhere that there aren't rails that fit right or something. I'm an aftermarket seat n00b, need guidance

[slicer]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

I don't know.. I read somewhere that there aren't rails that fit right or something. I'm an aftermarket seat n00b, need guidance

Sportsters look great but don't add appreciable lateral support over the OE seats. You really need a fixed back seat with real side bolsters to make a jump in support. Don't get me wrong, Sportsters are a nice seat and lighter than OE but you aren't going to see a big stability increase in corners

[kyippee]

Thanks slicer, somebody recommended Cobra Nogaro in another thread and I'm looking into them. I think I rode passenger in an E92 M3 with those seats as well, confirming. If it was the same seat, then the Cobra Nogaro felt good in support! Update: It was Sparco Evo II in a friend's car

[BayE30]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Doing my first "time trial" entry on 12/30/2018 at Laguna Seca in the Speed SF Challenge, S3 class. Just two points away from S2, so I think it's a fair build I have now! PB in the past was 1:44.89 on stock EDC suspension with just Dinan front sway bar & RE71R so I'm very excited to see what I can do with JRZ RS One, all the goodies, and NT01. Laguna Seca is where I'm most comfortable, so it felt like the right time to enter.

Super excited, anybody else going? I already know I want better seats, Recaro Sportster CS is on my to-do list, need to figure out all the accessories i.e. brackets/sliders to properly fit and align with steering wheel. Read some rough stories of MS mounts not working right. Any tips on seats? Not planning to do roll cage at the moment, thus the more street/3-point friendly setup.

I was going to take my e30 for Laguna 12/30, but i broke it at Thill last weekend. Hoping to get the car fixed in time for an April track day, but dont know until i get the transmission off, and who knows when i will have time for that.

[kyippee]

Oh wut. Were we at the same track day with Speed SF? We could've had an E92 M3 3-way.. there was me and another white E92 M3 hauling around the track in red group.

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Doing my first "time trial" entry on 12/30/2018 at Laguna Seca in the Speed SF Challenge, S3 class. Just two points away from S2, so I think it's a fair build I have now! PB in the past was 1:44.89 on stock EDC suspension with just Dinan front sway bar & RE71R so I'm very excited to see what I can do with JRZ RS One, all the goodies, and NT01. Laguna Seca is where I'm most comfortable, so it felt like the right time to enter.

Super excited, anybody else going? I already know I want better seats, Recaro Sportster CS is on my to-do list, need to figure out all the accessories i.e. brackets/sliders to properly fit and align with steering wheel. Read some rough stories of MS mounts not working right. Any tips on seats? Not planning to do roll cage at the moment, thus the more street/3-point friendly setup.

What lap times to you need to be competitive in S3 at WRLS?