Euro AP Racing BBK Pictures

[rzm3]

From thorneymotorsport.co.uk.
http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/e..._Upgrade.shtml

Interesting to see a comparison between the US kit (Ø368F, Ø358R) vs. Euro kit (Ø378 or Ø368F, Ø350R). Looks like the biggest difference is the rear rotor and caliper, which is what Chris@Stillen has said before. Wonder what difference it makes?

[rzm3]

US rear kit for reference

[STALKER]

Nice find.

[bunnn]

wonder if you can mix and match..

[mastek]

very interesting ...... wonder why those colors are not available here?? .. hmmm

and why is there a difference of ANY kind if the kit is coming from the same place and built for the same exact car??

[immiketoo]

AP Racing

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by mastek

very interesting ...... wonder why those colors are not available here?? .. hmmm

and why is there a difference of ANY kind if the kit is coming from the same place and built for the same exact car??

Because Stillen has exclusive distribution rights to sell AP Racing brake upgrades in North America.

They get to decide what brake products are sold for each BBK application, and the final specs those parts will possess.

If they determine that 90% of the BBK market will be better served by offering the 368f/358r setup (cost vs. performance), then that's the kit they will offer to the general public.

It keeps the number of BBK configurations options simple, and it also reduces the number of replacement parts they have to keep in their warehouse. (for repair or routine brake service maintenance)

Stillen & AP Racing work together (in a co-opertaive fashion) to engineer every big brake "kit" they offer here. Stillen does not simply order a pre-packaged BBK. (out of a catalog)

There will always be options that get left out...in the pursuit of practicality.

I suspect that Stillen has decided that a 386f/358r BBK combination, offers the best balance between braking performance, cost, and clearance for OEM & aftermarket wheel fitments.

As a consumer, I always want all the options that I can possibly get (within reason of course), so I'm not a big fan of Stillen's decision to limit what I can or cannot buy here in the United States.

That being said, I completely understand why aftermarket parts distributors sometimes choose this path.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Because Stillen has exclusive distribution rights to sell AP Racing brake upgrades in North America.

They get to decide what brake products are sold for each BBK application, and the final specs those parts will possess.

If they determine that 90% of the BBK market will be better served by offering the 368f/358r setup (cost vs. performance), then that's the kit they will offer to the general public.

It keeps the number of BBK configurations options simple, and it also reduces the number of replacement parts they have to keep in their warehouse. (for repair or routine brake service maintenance)

Stillen & AP Racing work together (in a co-opertaive fashion) to engineer every big brake "kit" they offer here. Stillen does not simply order a pre-packaged BBK. (out of a catalog)

There will always be options that get left out...in the pursuit of practicality.

I suspect that Stillen has decided that a 386f/358r BBK combination, offers the best balance between braking performance, cost, and clearance for OEM & aftermarket wheel fitments.

As a consumer, I always want all the options that I can possibly get (within reason of course), so I'm not a big fan of Stillen's decision to limit what I can or cannot buy here in the United States.

That being said, I completely understand why aftermarket parts distributors sometimes choose this path.

The decision was not a limiting decision at all. It was a liberating decision. By that I mean we were able to move ahead more quickly to produce and ship a rear kit from North America rather than wait for the Formula kit version. Once APR had their version done, both are now offered so a customer can choose what they like.

There are some cars in North America currently with the AP Formula kits installed front and rear. However, these kits are not normally stocked in the USA since the Stillen kit works beautifully and is already fully supported with replacement parts on the shelf. The UK Formula kits take typically take 10-12 weeks to arrive by ocean, but sometimes they beat this by a few weeks. Some people prefer to pay for air shipping, which reduces the lead time by about 4 weeks and increases the price by about $500 or so per car set.

Truth be told, the caliper on the Stillen kit is a little stiffer than what was chosen on the Formula kit. It might not make that much difference to some, but they turned out to be sized correctly and were already stocked in the US. Had that not been the case, Stillen would have used the Formula kit caliper once it was ready.

Stillen chose not to do a U.S. 378mm front kit as the AP Formula kit was already done. Some have been brought in by request on a per order basis. The 368mm kit was shipping in the USA before it was shipping in the UK. It was driven by Stillen for customers choosing to run 18" track tires, not that AP wouldn't have done it themselves eventually anyway. It just worked out that way on the E9x M3 as the UK did the larger kit first.

No one likes to limit customer options. At the same time, customer service concerns dictate that replacement parts must be available when needed. I've seen situations where customers had rare or odd-ball setups (not always AP, but it has happened) and were told they had to wait a month or two for replacement discs. It's no fun fielding THAT phone call. No one I know needs a second anus!

Chris

P.S. I actually like the balance of the Stillen kits better. The UK went slightly more conservative, being the proper Brits they are. It's a very minute difference, but we think M3 drivers deserve the best we can give them.

[STALKER]

Chris, can you tell us what exactly is the difference between the kits, besides the rotor size?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Chris, can you tell us what exactly is the difference between the kits, besides the rotor size?

Different caliper. The UK Formula kit uses a caliper based on the CP6600 and the Stillen/AP kit uses a CP5306. Both are solid calipers, but the CP5306 is a bit stiffer and can handle a more heat. And there is slightly more rear bias in the Stillen kit.

Chris

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

Different caliper. The UK Formula kit uses a caliper based on the CP6600 and the Stillen/AP kit uses a CP5306. Both are solid calipers, but the CP5306 is a bit stiffer and can handle a more heat. And there is slightly more rear bias in the Stillen kit.

Chris

Thanks.
The rear rotors look to be different as well no?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Thanks.
The rear rotors look to be different as well no?

AP Formula rear kit: 350x26mm
Stillen/AP rear kit: 356x26mm

Minuscule difference at the OD and even less so at the effective radius. This was another reason the decision was made to go with a rotor size already well stocked in the USA. The 350x26 had not been used on any previous brake system on this side of the pond. In fact, I can't find that same disc in any other Formula kit either. For a such a small change (less than 0.8% and in the right direction anyway), it is much better for customers to have replacements readily available.

Chris

[mastek]

Are the front rotors (on the Stillen/AP kit) a US-manufacturer rotor (like Racing Brake) and the hats come from AP Europe?

Are the rear rotors (on the Stillen/AP Kit) a US-manufacturer rotor (like Racing Brake) and the hats come from AP Europe?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by mastek

Are the front rotors (on the Stillen/AP kit) a US-manufacturer rotor (like Racing Brake) and the hats come from AP Europe?

Are the rear rotors (on the Stillen/AP Kit) a US-manufacturer rotor (like Racing Brake) and the hats come from AP Europe?

The front rotors are made in the UK by AP Racing as are the front hats. In this particular case, the strap drive rotors are completely assembled at AP Racing's Coventry facility. They are exactly the same in either the 368x36mm Formula kit or the Stillen/AP 368x36mm system.

The rear rotors are made to Stillen's design and engineering specifications by DBA (Disc Brakes Australia). DBA is also a technical partner to AP Racing, supplying rotors to OE applications as a direct subcontractor to AP. The rear hats are made by Stillen in the USA.

Not that it is pertinent to this discussion, but all of Racing Brake's rotors are manufactured in Taiwan, not the USA.

Is there a particular issue you are concerned with?

Chris

[mastek]

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

The front rotors are made in the UK by AP Racing as are the front hats. In this particular case, the strap drive rotors are completely assembled at AP Racing's Coventry facility. They are exactly the same in either the 368x36mm Formula kit or the Stillen/AP 368x36mm system.

The rear rotors are made to Stillen's design and engineering specifications by DBA (Disc Brakes Australia). DBA is also a technical partner to AP Racing, supplying rotors to OE applications as a direct subcontractor to AP. The rear hats are made by Stillen in the USA.

Not that it is pertinent to this discussion, but all of Racing Brake's rotors are manufactured in Taiwan, not the USA.

Is there a particular issue you are concerned with?

Chris

Ya ... u answered my potential issue .... IF u were using cheap rotors (like RB).
Thanks 4 answering all questions regarding this kit ... i know it may seem like a pita ... but some of us more crazy enthusiasts really appreciate your answers.

Thanks again.

[mastek]

Chris,

The Formula Kit is available on your website:
http://www.stillen.com/product.asp?i...e=BMW&model=M3

would you recommend it over the other kit for people that track more often?

Is it more of a 'race' kit (no piston dust boots, etc)?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by mastek

would you recommend it over the other kit for people that track more often?

Is it more of a 'race' kit (no piston dust boots, etc)?

The calipers in both kits are identical. The only difference is the 368mm kit fits in many 18" wheels while the 378mm kit fits in very few. Since there is less than +0.8% difference in front axle torque (and the car can stand more rear bias), I haven't found a reason yet to recommend the slightly larger kit to anyone purely based on performance anyway. As for looks, the radius is whopping 5mm (.197") larger.

That said, I would not recommend against the 378mm, but it is only for those that never plan on using 18" wheels or who have purchased 18" race wheels that have already been checked for clearance. Most street-oriented wheels have too deep of a drop center and would crash into the caliper.

Chris

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by mastek

Ya ... u answered my potential issue .... IF u were using cheap rotors (like RB).
Thanks 4 answering all questions regarding this kit ... i know it may seem like a pita ... but some of us more crazy enthusiasts really appreciate your answers.

Thanks again.

No worries. There is a lot of misinformation out there (and not just on BBK's!), and I completely understand the need to find to good, solid data before making decisions. The only challenge is having the time to answer what questions I can and researching those that I can't before responding. The forum vendors usually do a great job of keeping people up to date on what is available to choose from, so I only check in here from time to time to give technical support. Well, that and the fact that I'm also a bit of an ///M fanatic myself...

Chris