GTS Wing's Aerodynamics

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by e92BMW///M3

Perhaps a dumb question, but when the GTS wing is at max AoA is it more of a wing/airfoil based on the shape? And where it is at the lowest AoA it acts as more of a spoiler?

probably not. we were talking earlier in this thread that the a large angle of attack probably acts as more of a spoiler like you would see on the nascar example a couple posts above this one.

[berns]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I think this is the best way to describe the GTS wing.

If you want something that produces noticeable downforce you'll need a much larger wing. But the GTS wing eliminates the lift so it's a definite improvement over no wing.

Bringing this thread back -- sorry!

So, if this is the consensus with the GTS wing, what about the GT4 wing? I HATE the look of the GT4 wing with risers, because they don't follow the same path and angle as the base plates attached the wing itself. But people run the big GT4 wing with GTS risers too, which is now almost a full size wing at a really low height, and not sure how I feel about that either...
Then finally we have the M235i R wing... decisions, decisions.

I have so much data, and more to come, from my local So Cal tracks with my non-aero E92, that I'm really curious, in the name of science, what a GTS aero package would do to my lap times.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by berns

Bringing this thread back -- sorry!

So, if this is the consensus with the GTS wing, what about the GT4 wing? I HATE the look of the GT4 wing with risers, because they don't follow the same path and angle as the base plates attached the wing itself. But people run the big GT4 wing with GTS risers too, which is now almost a full size wing at a really low height, and not sure how I feel about that either...
Then finally we have the M235i R wing... decisions, decisions.

I have so much data, and more to come, from my local So Cal tracks with my non-aero E92, that I'm really curious, in the name of science, what a GTS aero package would do to my lap times.

Some great info & data here;

Aero setup for track days https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1480510

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by berns

Bringing this thread back -- sorry!

So, if this is the consensus with the GTS wing, what about the GT4 wing? I HATE the look of the GT4 wing with risers, because they don't follow the same path and angle as the base plates attached the wing itself. But people run the big GT4 wing with GTS risers too, which is now almost a full size wing at a really low height, and not sure how I feel about that either...
Then finally we have the M235i R wing... decisions, decisions.

I have so much data, and more to come, from my local So Cal tracks with my non-aero E92, that I'm really curious, in the name of science, what a GTS aero package would do to my lap times.

I'm with you on this. The tall mount risers for the GT4 wing look goofy to me and FWIW I care about looks, not just performance. Fast cars don't have to be ugly. I still like the GT4 wing at GTS height. There are also 2 versions of the GT4 wing IIRC one being a lot closer to the GTS size.

For you, if you're making the jump, the M235ir wing I think would look best. It looks more at home on this car at the taller height.

I'm genuinely curious how much faster the GT4 splitter+wing are vs the GTS splitter+wing. It's something I'd like to explore myself at some point down the road but it would be easy to make the adjustable splitter portion of the GTS lip larger than it is.

[berns]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

Some great info & data here;

Aero setup for track days https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1480510

That's some entry level aero notes. I have a pretty decent understanding of how aero works, and I've come out of a car that had a full APR wing and big ol' front splitter. My question is more in regard to the GTS wing since it is SO small, to see if any hardcore track rats, like myself, have run it successfully, with data to back it up, other than: rear end feels more planted. I went 2mph faster without it.

I'm fairly consistent in my laps and have hard data from my AIM solo to back up laps broken down by each section, so it would be easy for me to see if the GTS or GT4 aero was actually working for that matter. I'm inclined to try, but it's a big spend on parts that might do nothing. I'm not super interested in having a full, massive aero TA car at this time. Small OE-like aero also accrues less penalty points in Bimmer Challenge.

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I'm with you on this. The tall mount risers for the GT4 wing look goofy to me and FWIW I care about looks, not just performance. Fast cars don't have to be ugly. I still like the GT4 wing at GTS height. There are also 2 versions of the GT4 wing IIRC one being a lot closer to the GTS size.

For you, if you're making the jump, the M235ir wing I think would look best. It looks more at home on this car at the taller height.

I'm genuinely curious how much faster the GT4 splitter+wing are vs the GTS splitter+wing. It's something I'd like to explore myself at some point down the road but it would be easy to make the adjustable splitter portion of the GTS lip larger than it is.

I actually think the GTS lip with a nicely extended splitter would be much MORE effective than the GT4 lip. This is because the brake duct holes are hurting the aero benefit. Any hole in the front of the car for air to go through will make the splitter less effective. BimmerWorld offers a really cool GT4-esque front lip and splitter combo without the holes. That's what I'd run if I was ready to go all out aero on this car.

The M235iR wing is kind of cool, but the uprights a bit skinny and dainty and I'm not sure I love them either. Paired with the height, it's a little off to me. I still vibe most with the smallest GT4 wing at GTS height. There are so many companies that offer this, though, and I don't know which is which. Would love it in more of a satin/matte carbon.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by berns

Bringing this thread back -- sorry!

So, if this is the consensus with the GTS wing, what about the GT4 wing? I HATE the look of the GT4 wing with risers, because they don't follow the same path and angle as the base plates attached the wing itself. But people run the big GT4 wing with GTS risers too, which is now almost a full size wing at a really low height, and not sure how I feel about that either...
Then finally we have the M235i R wing... decisions, decisions.

I have so much data, and more to come, from my local So Cal tracks with my non-aero E92, that I'm really curious, in the name of science, what a GTS aero package would do to my lap times.

I think you'd notice some benefit of going to the GTS wing, compared to nothing (stock). In terms of downforce levels, it's low, but like I mentioned it will definitely eliminate the lift the car has w/o a wing. The GT4 wing will be more effective due to it's larger size, even if you run it at the GTS wings height.

I like the look the of the GTS wing on this car. Also the GT4 wing at the GTS height looks good as well. I had a GTS wing, but never installed it once I had it - it just looked so dinky (effectiveness wise) on the car and I wanted something more significant so I went with the BW wing.

I think you have 3 reasonable options. GTS wing at normal GTS height, GT4 wing at GTS height, or GTS wing with risers. Could go GT4 on the higher risers but you didn't seem interested in that option. Paired with a GT4 or GTS style splitter it will be a big upgrade over stock, but not be outrageous and can still drive it around easily. If you're not having brake overheating issues then the GT4 splitter probably doesn't make sense for the reasons you mentioned, but for those that need brake ducts it's one of the best/easiest duct solutions while improving front aero at the same time.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I'm with you on this.

Originally Posted by berns

That's some entry level aero notes.

Berns, maybe consider the UCC grand am spec wing. It's functional, wind tunnel tested downforce without the glaring wing effect.

I know Steve has one, maybe he could post a couple mockup pictures. I think it looks incredible!

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by berns

Bringing this thread back -- sorry!

So, if this is the consensus with the GTS wing, what about the GT4 wing? I HATE the look of the GT4 wing with risers, because they don't follow the same path and angle as the base plates attached the wing itself. But people run the big GT4 wing with GTS risers too, which is now almost a full size wing at a really low height, and not sure how I feel about that either...
Then finally we have the M235i R wing... decisions, decisions.

I have so much data, and more to come, from my local So Cal tracks with my non-aero E92, that I'm really curious, in the name of science, what a GTS aero package would do to my lap times.

Currently debating this exact thing.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Berns, maybe consider the UCC grand am spec wing. It's functional, wind tunnel tested downforce without the glaring wing effect.

I know Steve has one, maybe he could post a couple mockup pictures. I think it looks incredible!

I need to pull the little lip spoiler off the trunk so I can properly test fit the UUC wing and then I'll run out and grab some pictures. I'm just as curious how it looks.

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Berns, maybe consider the UCC grand am spec wing. It's functional, wind tunnel tested downforce without the glaring wing effect.

I know Steve has one, maybe he could post a couple mockup pictures. I think it looks incredible!

Wish they made it for the E90

[rhyary]

It helps to think of the GTS wing as a spoiler to cancel the lift, rather than a wing that actively generates down force.

This is the conclusion I came to by watching YouTube and Reading what's available.

As a spoiler, it makes sense where it sits, as a wing I think it sits too low.

[berns]

Great discussion, guys. Stoked I brought this thread back.

Well, I'm committed to testing some of this out. I'm going to try out the GTS lip & splitter combo from 360 Carbon. And I'll likely pair it with the GTS or GT4 wing at GTS height. If this mild aero lets me carry over 100+mph through the sweeper at Buttonwillow alone, it would be a significant advantage.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by berns

Great discussion, guys. Stoked I brought this thread back.

Well, I'm committed to testing some of this out. I'm going to try out the GTS lip & splitter combo from 360 Carbon. And I'll likely pair it with the GTS or GT4 wing at GTS height. If this mild aero lets me carry over 100+mph through the sweeper at Buttonwillow alone, it would be a significant advantage.

I vote for GT4 wing at GTS height What kind of speeds are you at the sweeper without Aero?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by berns

Great discussion, guys. Stoked I brought this thread back.

Well, I'm committed to testing some of this out. I'm going to try out the GTS lip & splitter combo from 360 Carbon. And I'll likely pair it with the GTS or GT4 wing at GTS height. If this mild aero lets me carry over 100+mph through the sweeper at Buttonwillow alone, it would be a significant advantage.

Good to know, no one is immune to the speed mod pressures... I swear your build thread was explicit about no aero :

[berns]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Good to know, no one is immune to the speed mod pressures... I swear your build thread was explicit about no aero :

You know what, I'm embarrassed. This is an addiction. I signed up for the GTS lip group buy with Epoustouflant just for the one-piece. Just for looks!

Then I realized I really only liked the look of it with the splitter on the bottom. Then I started thinking the splitter could be improved down the road, made bigger, with more support. Then I realized that'd only be useful if I put at least a GTS wing on the car, since, if anything, the car needs more REAR grip, not front. Then I started thinking of what I'd really want, which is the BimmerWorld front lip & splitter package, without the brake ducts, and their canards. And then, I saw your comment, DRLane. You're right.

I committed to accomplishing some serious goals with this car with no aero. I haven't even done all the rear arms, rear subframe mounts/bushings, a Drexler with a 4.10... Haven't run a 53 at Buttonwillow on Street tires, or set new no-aero platform records at all the California tracks. So, back to that plan. Thanks for bringing me back down, man. Really went full idiot today.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by berns

You know what, I'm embarrassed. This is an addiction. I signed up for the GTS lip group buy with Epoustouflant just for the one-piece. Just for looks!

Then I realized I really only liked the look of it with the splitter on the bottom. Then I started thinking the splitter could be improved down the road, made bigger, with more support. Then I realized that'd only be useful if I put at least a GTS wing on the car, since, if anything, the car needs more REAR grip, not front. Then I started thinking of what I'd really want, which is the BimmerWorld front lip & splitter package, without the brake ducts, and their canards. And then, I saw your comment, DRLane. You're right.

I committed to accomplishing some serious goals with this car with no aero. I haven't even done all the rear arms, rear subframe mounts/bushings, a Drexler with a 4.10... Haven't run a 53 at Buttonwillow on Street tires, or set new no-aero platform records at all the California tracks. So, back to that plan. Thanks for bringing me back down, man. Really went full idiot today.

Didn't mean to dash the dreams. Just appreciated knowing I'm in good company.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by berns

You know what, I'm embarrassed. This is an addiction. I signed up for the GTS lip group buy with Epoustouflant just for the one-piece. Just for looks!

Then I realized I really only liked the look of it with the splitter on the bottom. Then I started thinking the splitter could be improved down the road, made bigger, with more support. Then I realized that'd only be useful if I put at least a GTS wing on the car, since, if anything, the car needs more REAR grip, not front. Then I started thinking of what I'd really want, which is the BimmerWorld front lip & splitter package, without the brake ducts, and their canards. And then, I saw your comment, DRLane. You're right.

I committed to accomplishing some serious goals with this car with no aero. I haven't even done all the rear arms, rear subframe mounts/bushings, a Drexler with a 4.10... Haven't run a 53 at Buttonwillow on Street tires, or set new no-aero platform records at all the California tracks. So, back to that plan. Thanks for bringing me back down, man. Really went full idiot today.

I think it's good to sometimes come in and kick the tires on some ideas. I know I'm guilty of being super impulsive when it comes to what I do next with the car and generally it leads down a road where I'm not totally satisfied.

I'd really love to see what the car will do on street tires with no aero when you've pretty much thrown all the good mods at it.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I think it's good to sometimes come in and kick the tires on some ideas. I know I'm guilty of being super impulsive when it comes to what I do next with the car and generally it leads down a road where I'm not totally satisfied.

I'd really love to see what the car will do on street tires with no aero when you've pretty much thrown all the good mods at it.

Very true - like I was telling Berns, anyone of us who hasn't deep dove into mod rabbit holes is lying to themselves. My screen time on M3post is

[OG Shark]

berns I ran the 235 wing (w/240 endplates) on my street/track M2. The uprights do look a bit dainty & but I found the 235 wing to be the lesser of all the evils in the wings on street cars world (not a fan of wings on cars that see street time). I can say performance wise though you can definitely feel it working back there. Certainly not overpowering but could pick up the positives & negatives in the data when working through AOA adjustments. I would run an extended lower splitter with the lip in the pics below - think the wing paired very well with it. My concern with all the wings that are similar to this (height, length, etc) would be that the gain would be pretty negligible - but was happy with the performance of this setup - definitely a net loss in lap times. Since the car is starting the transformation to full race car & we will be trying to optimize & increase the front downforce I think we will likely move to a larger wing - but for a moderate to low front aero setup I think the 235 wing is more than serviceable.

[//steve\\]

^Looks great! what wheels are those?

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

^Looks great! what wheels are those?

Thanks! Signature Wheel SV501 in matte black. Have them in matte bronze too. Also run their SV502 on my M3.

[berns]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

berns I ran the 235 wing (w/240 endplates) on my street/track M2. The uprights do look a bit dainty & but I found the 235 wing to be the lesser of all the evils in the wings on street cars world (not a fan of wings on cars that see street time). I can say performance wise though you can definitely feel it working back there. Certainly not overpowering but could pick up the positives & negatives in the data when working through AOA adjustments. I would run an extended lower splitter with the lip in the pics below - think the wing paired very well with it. My concern with all the wings that are similar to this (height, length, etc) would be that the gain would be pretty negligible - but was happy with the performance of this setup - definitely a net loss in lap times. Since the car is starting the transformation to full race car & we will be trying to optimize & increase the front downforce I think we will likely move to a larger wing - but for a moderate to low front aero setup I think the 235 wing is more than serviceable.

Thanks! Looks cool. Yeah It's an in-between for me. I'm torn. Just going to keep pushing with no aero and I'll figure it out when I've reached the cars limit.