Motortrend:LF-A versus GT-R

[lyndon_h]

Why are we driving 45k+ 3 series when a 30k maxima has 85% of the performance and 95% of the features?

[BMW269]

I love everything about the LF-A:
-the engine
-the sound
-the design
-front engine
-rear wheel drive

Probably one of the most desirerable supercars at the moment. Even though the GT-R is extremly fast, I do not consider it as a supercar.

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by Levi

Even though the GT-R is extremly fast, I do not consider it as a supercar.

Why not, is it not SUPER expensive enough. I thought it was interesting that a lot of people said the Z06 was not a supercar, but thought the an F360/F430 is, even though the Z06 is faster around the 'Ring.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Guibo

You call them excuses, others who are actually buying this thing consider them reasons.
The LFA's electronics are defeatable. The GT-R's AWD is not. GT-R also lacks a straight stick. And unlike the GT-R, the LFA's driving experience has been likened to not just a regular F430, but to the Scuderia. That is the level of response and involvement. This coming from people who have actually driven it. When you drove the LFA, did it not impress you?

My test drive was right after yours. You seem more impressed than me.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Guibo

The upcoming GT2 (RS?) is, what, twice the price of a ZR1 or ACR. Do you honestly think it represents twice the level of objective performance?

Did I say it does? Did I say there had to be a linear cost to performance ratio?
Did I say there weren't other factors than straightline performance?
BTW, the ZR1 and Viper are very nice too.

[BMW269]

Ok, in fact for me, LF-A, GT-R, 911, R8, Gallardo, F430, 458 Italia, MP4-12C are just sportcars. But supercars are SLR McLaren, Carrera GT, Enzo, MC12, Murcielago. Veyron is a hypercar.

[SantaPimp27]

GTR is nice and fast, but i would try to find a slightly used Rossion Q1 before i got a GTR

[ALPINE6SPD]

Wait a secong I could have this car or a ferrari 599 GTO taht does everything better. r better yeat I can have abn LF-A or a 458 Itilia and a 911 Turbo. HMMMMMM Thats a tough choice. I know it is limited but that doesnt matter to me. A single clutch automated sequential gearbox for almost 400k NO THANKS. Once again Lexus ruins the gearbox in this car just like EVERY other car they sell. No manual or dual clutch in an IS-F give me a break. I know the Lambo has a single clutch unti as well but the G is a TON less money and performs better in most catergories. I also know the Murchi. has a single unit but you can still get a real trasmission in both of those car being a 6 speed manual transmission. I will never understand the LF-A. I Know they are all sold but this proves nothing to me.

[Inspired]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

Why not, is it not SUPER expensive enough. I thought it was interesting that a lot of people said the Z06 was not a supercar, but thought the an F360/F430 is, even though the Z06 is faster around the 'Ring.

It just doesn't have the super car status to it. As much as I like the GTR, I wouldn't consider it a super car.

You could make a civic faster than a GTR. Would you consider the civic a supercar?

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by twinturbo335

It just doesn't have the super car status to it. As much as I like the GTR, I wouldn't consider it a super car.

You could make a civic faster than a GTR. Would you consider the civic a supercar?

If a stock civic could burn around the 'ring under 7:50 and break 12 in quarter it would be a supercar.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

No I think it'll actually be the other way around.

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Yeah, definitely the other way around.

LFA will end up being just another the Jag XJ220, in supercar history. Nice car, but nothing special. It definitiely won't have the history of the Mclaren F1.

Originally Posted by 997GT3

No. One is an overpriced boutique car that'll will only be owned by rich guys that put them in their garages to collect dust. And one is a car that turned the high end sports car market upside down by creating a $80K car that $400k cars are compared against.
The GTR is the benchmark not the LFA.

Exactly GTR has turned the high end sports car market upside down. No one can deny it.

It will be a car classic 20 years from now.

[graider]

how can you not love the lfa. the sound is just insane. better than 458 italia, etc..etc...

[graider]

Originally Posted by Levi

Ok, in fact for me, LF-A, GT-R, 911, R8, Gallardo, F430, 458 Italia, MP4-12C are just sportcars. But supercars are SLR McLaren, Carrera GT, Enzo, MC12, Murcielago. Veyron is a hypercar.

actually, i think the lfa is up there with carrera gt, enzo, mc12, murcielago.

none of the car in this class is made out of carbon fiber nor make a sound remotely close to the lfa. these more like entry level supercar GT-R, 911, R8, Gallardo, F430, 458 Italia, MP4-12C

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by ALPINE6SPD

Once again Lexus ruins the gearbox in this car just like EVERY other car they sell. No manual or dual clutch in an IS-F give me a break.

Says the guy driving the 328 with the "Performance Rear Spoiler".

Quit talking about something you so obviously know nothing about.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Did I say it does? Did I say there had to be a linear cost to performance ratio?
Did I say there weren't other factors than straightline performance?
BTW, the ZR1 and Viper are very nice too.

You did not flat out say that, but your implication is that since Car A is faster than Car B (it's not BTW) for much cheaper, that makes Car B a waste of money or otherwise "not worth" the money. Isn't that what you're saying?
You said those other factors are "excuses." Ie, they're not legitimate factors.
We are not debating the niceness of the ZR1 or Viper. However, their very existence pretty much renders your argument obsolete.

Originally Posted by 997GT3

My test drive was right after yours. You seem more impressed than me.

So your test drive is imaginary. Unless you're a member of the motoring media, are a member of Toyota's testing team, or your name is in fact Scott Pruett, then the odds of you having actually driven the car are next to zero.
At least I'm going by the impressions of those who have actually driven it.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Guibo

You did not flat out say that, but your implication is that since Car A is faster than Car B (it's not BTW) for much cheaper, that makes Car B a waste of money or otherwise "not worth" the money. Isn't that what you're saying?.

I said flat out that the LFA is nice but not $400k nice. The fact that they're comparing it against an $80k car is proof enough.
Even if you dismiss the comparison because of fit and finish and other subjective parameters there are tons of supercars that have much more polish that would eat the LFA for lunch for less money.
Would you honestly take an LFA over the faster Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera (or Lamborghini Murcielago)? How about the cheaper but faster 458, Turbo S, or GT2 RS?
The reality is the LFA is putting down 997.2 Turbo numbers not Murcielago ones. Those are good numbers but the $400K car market is crowded with faster cars.
If people like the noise, exclusivity, or whatever that's great but not very compelling IMO.

You said those other factors are "excuses." Ie, they're not legitimate factors.
We are not debating the niceness of the ZR1 or Viper. However, their very existence pretty much renders your argument obsolete.

When people are sidestepping the performance numbers they are excuses.
If the Lexus had Lambo specs then polish, noise, exclusivity would be the differentiating factors.
But those are secondary issues IMO<again>.

So your test drive is imaginary. Unless you're a member of the motoring media, are a member of Toyota's testing team, or your name is in fact Scott Pruett, then the odds of you having actually driven the car are next to zero.
At least I'm going by the impressions of those who have actually driven it.

That doesn't even make sense. You're critical of my opinion because I haven't driven one yet you can't see your double standard by expressing an opinion when you haven't driven it either. Get it?

[MediaArtist]

These kind of threads are frustrating and kind of stupid. I don't know why I even participate in them.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

These kind of threads are frustrating and kind of stupid. I don't know why I even participate in them.

Because its fun. Come on. It's like all the sports debates that can never be answered. Let's all get worked up about nothing. No one here will ever own an LF-A (which is kind of the reason the car annoys me-I thought it was suppose to be an attainable vehicle).

[MediaArtist]

It's only fun when intelligent discussion is generated, not some of the BS being typed in here. "The LF-A will be a failure in 20 years based on my opinion as a GT-R fanboy" or "It's a boutique car that old fat guys will store in their garage and will never be driven", isn't intelligent at all. Why not discuss the cars performance at 24 Hours Nuburgring, or at ADAC-Westfalenfahrt versus the Gallardo and R8?

I don't see very much intelligent debate in this thread. People comparing the LF-A to the Jaguar XJ220 (two totally different cars), and claiming it will be an immediate failure based on some hypothesis based in the realm of ... nothing. Very immature, and pointless.

Don't let my opinion stop you from participating though. By all means, continue.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

It's only fun when intelligent discussion is generated, not some of the BS being typed in here. "The LF-A will be a failure in 20 years based on my opinion as a GT-R fanboy" or "It's a boutique car that old fat guys will store in their garage and will never be driven", isn't intelligent at all. Why not discuss the cars performance at 24 Hours Nuburgring, or at ADAC-Westfalenfahrt versus the Gallardo and R8?

I don't see very much intelligent debate in this thread. People comparing the LF-A to the Jaguar XJ220 (two totally different cars), and claiming it will be an immediate failure based on some hypothesis based in the realm of ... nothing. Very immature, and pointless.

Don't let my opinion stop you from participating though. By all means, continue.

Nice and condescending. There's nothing stupid about criticizing it because of price and general availability (hence the boutique comment).
It is being compared to a GTR so those are valid points.
And if this is soooooo beneath you by all means, leave.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

I said flat out that the LFA is nice but not $400k nice. The fact that they're comparing it against an $80k car is proof enough.

That's not proof of anything. I can point you to TopGear testing a Focus RS against a Ford GT. Or Autocar comparing a Mk1 Focus RS against a Murcielago. Or Evo comparing an STi against a Gallardo. Does it mean all of these cars are competing against each other? I suggest you think about that long and hard before answering.

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Even if you dismiss the comparison because of fit and finish and other subjective parameters there are tons of supercars that have much more polish that would eat the LFA for lunch for less money.

Name some of these cars that have compared against the LFA and have been found to possess "more polish."

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Would you honestly take an LFA over the faster Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera (or Lamborghini Murcielago)? How about the cheaper but faster 458, Turbo S, or GT2 RS?

Yes, I would. What is so wrong about that?

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Those are good numbers but the $400K car market is crowded with faster cars.

And the $400k car market is also crowded with slower cars. What's your point? That performance is all that matters at this price range?

Originally Posted by 997GT3

If people like the noise, exclusivity, or whatever that's great but not very compelling IMO.

Do you honestly think Ferrari sells 6000 cars in a year because every single one of them is objectively faster than the ZR1 (of which only about 1400 were produced last year)?

Originally Posted by 997GT3

That doesn't even make sense. You're critical of my opinion because I haven't driven one yet you can't see your double standard by expressing an opinion when you haven't driven it either. Get it?

There's no double standard here. I'm using the opinions of those who have had first-hand experience with the car. You are basing your opinion on preconceived bias about worth and an apparently stubborn refusal to accept the law of supply and demand.
But I'll go one step further. I will use the very same article that you cited as "proof" that the GT-R isn't worth the money against you. Read from the Motor Trend article:
"Only 500 are being made, and of those, only 150 will be available in the U.S., which means LFA will challenge exotics like the Carrera GT, SLR, Enzo, and Veyron in the realm of rarity. [See, it's not a 458/Gallardo competitor.]

Remove the collectors and speculators from the equation, and the LFA is merely another absurdly fast, glorious sounding supercar, right? Oh, if it were only that simple. Armchair experts, looking hard at our images and videos, will dissect and ultimately denounce the LFA for not being invincible. Sure, if a GT-R can catch it off guard, so can a Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 911 Turbo, Corvette ZR-1, and Dodge Viper -- all for a lot less money. But citing times, trap speeds, or dollar signs as enough reason to elevate any one of those over the LFA is missing the point entirely. The LFA belongs in the elite supercar club as much as any choice Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette. It looks and sounds like nothing else on the road, and is as fiendishly fast as it is complicated and indulgent -- the very embodiment of the country and motoring culture from which it comes.

As for what its worth on the street? You need only hear the intoxicating bark of that V-10 touching 9000 rpm to know the answer.
Every penny."



Game. Set. Match.


And yes, comparisons with the XJ220 are absurd. That car fell far short of sales goals when buyers felt they weren't getting the engine that was promised (even if the resulting engine was every bit as powerful). Meanwhile, Lexus have apparently sold out the planned 500 unit production run and are delivering a CF monocoque when years ago only aluminum was in the picture.
In the end, you can only say it's not worth it...to you. But don't presume that your definition of "value" is universally objective and applies to everyone.

[Guibo]

997GT3:

Please refute the following as patently false or absurd:

"Let's forget the price for a minute because you could argue that, at certain levels of the marketplace, people don't even look at the price. They just want something that's rare and special. This car is rare and it's rare and very, very special. I don't want to get bogged down in 'Ooh, it's 6 times more than a GT-R.' That's simplistic. Yes, it's not 6 times the car that the GT-R is. Of course it isn't. Nothing is 6 times the car that the GT-R is. A Veyron certainly isn't 12 times the car that the GT-R is. It's not possible to be that.
We've deliberately avoided any talk of the 2011 Lexus LFA's list price of $375,000 until now, because having spent the day (well, four hours) in this car, the price doesn't strike us as especially relevant. That'll sound absurd to many of you, but this car isn't a normal retail proposition, not even in the abnormal reality of Planet Supercar. Just 500 will be made, some 150 of which will go to the United States and only 70 of which are destined for Europe (18 of them to the U.K.). Perhaps the biggest compliment we can pay this Lexus is to say that it doesn't feel like a bad value.
Chances are, most people will never see one, and you shouldn't underestimate the power of this."
--Chris Harris, Evo Magazine

Shane O'Donoghue, contributor to Yahoo autos, Car Enthusiast, and Performance Car Mag:
"Comparisons to similar performing machines are pointless, as we believe that potential buyers have the means to buy whichever they prefer, regardless of logic or value for money.
...if you can spend £300,000 or so on a supercar it's likely that you may have one of each rather than seeing them as competitors."

5th Gear:
"While those [performance] figures are on a par with many supercars, such as the forthcoming Ferrari 458 Italia and McLaren MP4-12C, the Lexus costs a sizable chunk more and, in effect, competes with the likes of the Pagani Zonda and Ferrari 599 GTB - although in that stratosphere we're not so sure buyers look at things that logically."