![]() |
|
![]() |
03-06-2023, 08:35 PM | #22749 | |
.
![]() 1753
Rep 1,760
Posts
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: MN
|
Quote:
Remember there's nuance in this type of driving, that's why it's not as easy as following a few simple recommendations.
__________________
![]() |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 08:40 PM | #22751 | |
Major General
![]() ![]() 1411
Rep 7,976
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Quote:
What most intermediate drivers get wrong is going from brake to throttle. I'd argue that more than the points where you are on and off the pedals, its likely how you release and squeeze the pedals. 8 out of 10 intermediate drivers stomp the brake pedal and have no feel. If you have grippy tires then it makes that learning curve MUCH harder. I had a student in a semi-stripped out stock powered E36 M3 that runs faster lap times than cars with 3 times the horsepower. We had to overcome the whole threshold brake and make it feel like a boat anchor until you can turn it in and then get back on the throttle. Why are we talking about trail braking? Trail braking is not an answer here. Novices trail brake and they are slow. I'm sorry, focusing on trail braking better ain't gonna fix anything. Think traction circle, staying on the outside of the traction circle. Again, technique in squeezing and applying the brake/throttle, managing the weight transfer and once you get that feel down where you can arrest understeer NOT BY WHERE but HOW you come off the brake pedal, then we can talk about being really good at trailbraking. Typically my passengers can not feel feel when I come off the brake pedal and get back onto the throttle. The only tell is the exhaust noise. When I instruct, I'm grading intermediates on what I can feel when they come off the brakes. When I can't feel anything then we can talk about turning and braking, trail braking differently, and throttle steering. Until then the student doesn't have the skills and technique to safely utilize those advanced tools.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue Last edited by bigjae1976; 03-06-2023 at 08:48 PM.. |
|
03-06-2023, 08:46 PM | #22752 |
.
![]() 1753
Rep 1,760
Posts
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: MN
|
Not sure where the disconnect is but I wasn't opposing trail braking. I was solely opposed to "move my braking zone a little deeper" being a good idea for someone having issues with overslowing. They could be trailing braking correctly but have the issue of scrubbing off too much speed before the turn-in.
That person can keep their same braking reference point and entire braking zone, just use less of the brake pedal. It'll accomplish the same thing, they'll be quicker than they were, and will have a better idea of what the car should feel like while turning. Thus the more comfortable approach for everyone, including other people on track.
__________________
![]() |
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 08:51 PM | #22753 | |
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 553
Rep 500
Posts |
Quote:
There’s no right answer with some of you guys. The theory of trail braking a corner isn’t a specific approach and nothing anyone writes on here for driving theory is as easily done as it is said. I didn’t say “trail brake every corner the same way” but I apologize if that’s how it came across. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:07 PM | #22754 |
Lieutenant Colonel
![]() 712
Rep 1,610
Posts |
Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as argumentative. I don’t see a disconnect really. Someone that is overslowing either has to carry more speed or brake later. What other options are there? Carrying more speed and braking earlier won’t help the situation, so to me the answer is learn to trail brake.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:09 PM | #22755 | |
Brigadier General
![]() ![]() 3662
Rep 3,181
Posts |
Quote:
Also braking deeper isn’t the solution as it will result in overslowing for 99% of amateurs. Your boy Bentley explicitly states this in some of his latest corner convos. The goal is to carry more speed through the corner. A blanket “me, trail brake” grunt grunt. Is nonsensical.
__________________
Not a Doctor, those are just my initials.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:09 PM | #22756 | |
Derbo Tuning
3416
Rep 2,931
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
IG:ruhrohz_m3
Journal:Link Track Chat Discord: https://discord.gg/VsKbTyqBVj SF Bay Area: DM For coding services |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:21 PM | #22757 | |
Brigadier General
![]() ![]() 3662
Rep 3,181
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
Not a Doctor, those are just my initials.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:24 PM | #22758 | |
Major General
![]() ![]() 1411
Rep 7,976
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Quote:
Observation...When I started, local track, MSR Houston - 2008-ish most intermediate drivers were around 1:50-1:52, I was running 1:47s in advanced and was in the upper 3rd. Fast forward to today same DE org, I can't find an advanced DE driver that is running below 1:50. Maybe I am getting old but the better the tires, nannies and overall car gets, the slower the driver seems to be.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
|
03-06-2023, 09:37 PM | #22759 |
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 553
Rep 500
Posts |
I know the definition of trail braking and explained it in some detail because it seemed like you didn’t. Glad we’re on the same page now.
I had a coach teach me trail braking at VIR a few years ago. We discussed how to apply the theory to each corner that it would be useful in. It’s a basic theory with nuance to each specific corner. One session in and I was starting to feel it work for me. Over the course of a few days I gradually shaved off a decent amount of time because of it. Grunt grunt “Don’t work to achieve a driving style that will ultimately see you achieve the fastest lap times because you’re an amateur and you most likely suck” seems to be the pessimistic view a few of you prefer. Since we’re not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt here: Telling someone to keep the same braking zone “but just be lighter on the brakes” is also a huge generalization, and could lead to understeering their way right off track. I’m not saying less brake isn’t an effective approach, but it’s not the only approach. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2023, 09:45 PM | #22760 | |
Brigadier General
![]() ![]() 3662
Rep 3,181
Posts |
Quote:
Good visual for those that ski or watch ski racers. It’s a carve (albeit with tricky weight placement) but it’s not a hockey stop to rotate and repoint the fall line. It’s the same concept in the car. Someone already mentioned, find a safe corner and instead of going faster and deeper, come in slower but brake less. And see if you can carry more min speed. See if you can carve the car. Find its edge, then you can add speed with a dash of trailing off later and see if you can add more edge by shifting weight. Again each corner is different, but the goal is go through the corner as fast as possible in as short a distance as possible. Not simply, trail brake…
__________________
Not a Doctor, those are just my initials.
|
|
Appreciate
3
|
03-06-2023, 11:37 PM | #22761 |
Major
![]() ![]() 1154
Rep 1,341
Posts |
i started doing this into turn 1 at BW and ive shaved a full second LOL
__________________
|
Appreciate
1
Bimmer Barney1069.00 |
03-06-2023, 11:40 PM | #22762 |
Driver
2665
Rep 2,705
Posts |
I’m with Ximian on how to teach a *novice student braking and entry technique when they are previously overslowing and getting back to throttle on corner entry. Telling them to brake later is generally not productive with a novice/intermediate. This just makes the braking and entry phase even more frantic for them, when they are already pretty overloaded as is. Having them use the original brake initiation point but with less pressure is much more effective in leaving them with the bandwidth to feel the nuances of weight transfer while releasing the brake and turning in, and getting them to learn how to settle the car into a turn smoothly with higher speed.
And as others have already said, brake timing, pressure, and release vary based on corner characteristics…I’ve always wondered why most people at the track generally talk about “rotation” but don’t understand the when and why.
__________________
E90M 6MT Slicktop Single Humper in need of a diet
Last edited by Bartledoo; 03-07-2023 at 10:00 AM.. |
03-07-2023, 05:16 AM | #22763 |
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 157
Rep 466
Posts |
And as expected, we went off into a range of theories.
From reading his description, he trails despite how good/honed the technique is. But overslows then leads into throttle correction which as I said, kills the rotation. Throttle corrects and likely sits in maintenance throttle period going nowhere. Car should be decelerating or accelerating, way better rephrasing of "you should be on throttle/brake at any one time" myth. Maintenance throttle is definitely bad, load transfer is messed up and the car isn't effectively going anyhere. Forget about your min speed, you've lost tenths already by the next corner. Min speed, and just about all the above is really flaff. The best advice is thinking traction circle. Do any coaches truly sit down and teach how to read and interpret data when cars fitted with aim/motec loggers? As I indicated, I'm increasingly of the opinion that a good coach is also a better psychologist. Edit: someone mentioned colin braun. So I went and dug this up to have a listen on 2x: Within the last damn minute the host is talking about getting to WOT faster rather than getting on the throttle faster. Bam, simply communicated now go execute. Another reason you will see that a substantially faster driver usually has a lower throttle % for a given lap.
__________________
Bilstein CS | Rays ZE40 | Solid/spherical front / rear.
YouTube Last edited by gmx; 03-07-2023 at 05:59 AM.. |
03-07-2023, 09:40 AM | #22765 |
Major
![]() 499
Rep 1,145
Posts |
Never heard of doing that, but I'm curious as to why you want a thinner wheel?
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-07-2023, 09:48 AM | #22766 | |
Derbo Tuning
3416
Rep 2,931
Posts |
Quote:
For example the BMW Performance yellow striped wheel. 32-30-2-157-307 ![]() I think its overly thick too tbh. The E46 one was great.
__________________
IG:ruhrohz_m3
Journal:Link Track Chat Discord: https://discord.gg/VsKbTyqBVj SF Bay Area: DM For coding services |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-07-2023, 10:04 AM | #22767 | |
Driver
2665
Rep 2,705
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
E90M 6MT Slicktop Single Humper in need of a diet
|
|
Appreciate
1
bigjae19761410.50 |
03-07-2023, 11:05 AM | #22768 | |
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 546
Rep 443
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-07-2023, 11:58 AM | #22769 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
![]() 712
Rep 1,610
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
3
|
03-07-2023, 01:17 PM | #22770 | |
Brigadier General
![]() ![]() 3662
Rep 3,181
Posts |
Quote:
Taking things simply can offer a focus on feel which will guarantee speed later. And not just in your car, on those tires, at that track, with x conditions, etc.
__________________
Not a Doctor, those are just my initials.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|